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JCraven

Anyone going to race a FWD 4 door car in ST?

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JCraven

It seems that the correction factors for ST benefit 4 door and FWD cars. Anybody planning to try to take advantage of them?

 

I am looking at the rules, I have a couple of RWD Coupes that I could adapt to the class but concerned that they are already at a significant disadvantage.

 

As an example, let's compare 2 theoretical 2500lb cars, 1st is FWD 4 door and the 2nd is a RWD Coupe.

 

FWD correction factors

weight -.75

FWD +1.0

4 door +.4

tires +.8 (245 tires)

----------------------------

Total Correction Factors = 1.45

 

RWD Coupe correction factors

weight -.75

RWD 0

2 doors 0

tires +.8

--------------------------

Total Correction Factors = .5

 

Using the correction factors and calculating the maximum permissable horsepower

 

FWD = 2500/(8.7-1.45) = 345hp

RWD = 2500/(8.7-.5) = 305hp

 

Am I calculating this correctly?

 

If yes, which car would you prefer?

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Shawn M.
It seems that the correction factors for ST benefit 4 door and FWD cars. Anybody planning to try to take advantage of them?

 

 

Might be considering that. Not for this soposed break in the rules, but more for the fact the car I have might point out to that class.

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Greg G.
It seems that the correction factors for ST benefit 4 door and FWD cars. Anybody planning to try to take advantage of them?

 

I am looking at the rules, I have a couple of RWD Coupes that I could adapt to the class but concerned that they are already at a significant disadvantage.

 

As an example, let's compare 2 theoretical 2500lb cars, 1st is FWD 4 door and the 2nd is a RWD Coupe.

 

FWD correction factors

weight -.75

FWD +1.0

4 door +.4

tires +.8 (245 tires)

----------------------------

Total Correction Factors = 1.45

 

RWD Coupe correction factors

weight -.75

RWD 0

2 doors 0

tires +.8

--------------------------

Total Correction Factors = .5

 

Using the correction factors and calculating the maximum permissable horsepower

 

FWD = 2500/(8.7-1.45) = 345hp

RWD = 2500/(8.7-.5) = 305hp

 

Am I calculating this correctly?

 

If yes, which car would you prefer?

 

I would prefer to have the Miata, RX-7, RX-8, BMW, Porsche, Supra, etc. over just about any 4-door FWD car with only a 40 hp handicap. But, ultimately, it's the rest of the car's setup and the driver that are going to make the biggest difference.

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Shawn M.
I would prefer to have the Miata, RX-7, RX-8, BMW, Porsche, Supra, etc. over just about any 4-door FWD car with only a 40 hp handicap. But, ultimately, it's the rest of the car's setup and the driver that are going to make the biggest difference.

 

 

So, with the right driver, a 4 door FWD whatchumahcallit could be a Corvette killer? Hmm.....!

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JCraven

FWD correction factors

weight -.75

FWD +1.0

4 door +.4

tires +.8 (245 tires)

----------------------------

Total Correction Factors = 1.45

 

RWD Coupe correction factors

weight -.75

RWD 0

2 doors 0

tires +.8

--------------------------

Total Correction Factors = .5

 

Using the correction factors and calculating the maximum permissable horsepower

 

FWD = 2500/(8.7-1.45) = 345hp

RWD = 2500/(8.7-.5) = 305hp

 

Oops, I made a mistake

 

FWD correction factor is 1.45

RWD correction factor is (.8-.75)= .05

 

Using the corrected numbers

 

FWD = 2500/(8.7-1.45) = ~345HP

RWD = 2500/(8.7-.05) = ~289HP

 

FWD gets 56 more hp or 19% more HP than the RWD coupe. I can see how the FWD might be a bit slower coming out of 2nd gear corners but it'll catch and pass the RWD car down most straights, especially if that RWD coupe is a FFR (oops, FFR convertible).

 

Now, if I am calculating this correctly, I would definitely go with the FWD car. This really doesn't seem fair unless the 4 door aero and FWD with 300+hp creates a serious traction problem I am not aware of. I've raced both RWD coupes and 2 door FWD bricks and the FWD is not really a detriment with 13ish/1 weight to power ratios.

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Greg G.

It should be interesting. All of the 4 door FWD's that I know of are push pigs that just push harder once you have close to 300 hp. However, in this case, the car is pretty lightweight and still gets to run 245's. If you were to throw in some significantly altered suspension geometry, a great aero package, and an expensive suspension setup, I think you are right that the hp difference would be difficult to overcome. Then again, we have seen 200 hp RX-7's do some major damage to higher hp cars in the past. Now, let them have better suspension and a great aero package, and it's going to be course dependent on which car is faster. And a Z06 (C5) with a full aero and suspension package, with 370 hp, running on 345's is a very formidable opponent for the lighter 345 hp FWD on 245's. So, one thing that you left out in your scenario is that the FWD car needs to be lighter, while perhaps it's more advantageous to the RWD car to weigh a bit more and keep the power levels even--making up for the lighter weight of the FWD with a great brake package and bigger tires. The FWD doesn't have that option, because they just cannot get the power to the ground at 3000 lbs +.

 

Since this is the first year, we have to expect that some adjustments in those modification factors may be necessary in the future years. If we need to decrease the mod factor for 4-door sedan or FWD in '08, then we can.

 

I think this is a great class (if I do say so myself). I wish I had a car to run in it.

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Falcon
I would prefer to have the Miata, RX-7, RX-8, BMW, Porsche, Supra, etc. over just about any 4-door FWD car with only a 40 hp handicap. But, ultimately, it's the rest of the car's setup and the driver that are going to make the biggest difference.

 

 

So, with the right driver, a 4 door FWD whatchumahcallit could be a Corvette killer? Hmm.....!

 

Do you mean like an Audi with large aftermarket turbos?

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Greg G.

No, that Audi is an AWD, and will be in ST1 this year. I think he's talking about another watchumacallit that nobody has seen yet.

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mtm68

I'm seeing a killer older A4 with 1.8T, boosted to mars.

 

 

 

Marcus

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Falcon
No, that Audi is an AWD, and will be in ST1 this year. I think he's talking about another watchumacallit that nobody has seen yet.

Thank goodness! That means he won't be in ST2 with us mortals.

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JCraven

In the ST classes, motor can be changed so - have at it and get as much power as you need. Move it down, back, get the balance better etc. I was just reading about a Mazda 6 FWD with 1000hp which has run under 8 seconds in the quarter mile.

 

http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/11-05-2002/0001835247&EDATE

 

It seems that the Mazda 6 is also doing quite well in World Challenge, curious what correction factors they use to equalize the various FWD, RWD and AWD cars.

 

http://www.mazdausa.com/MusaWeb/displayPage.action?pageParameter=mazdaSpeedMotorsportsNewsCommon&sectionParameter=news69

 

 

Here is another article about FWD performance http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread.php?t=106453

 

If a production GM FWD grocery getter can do 13.8 in the quarter mile, yeah baby. There is interesting discussing about FWD and RWD traction issues, it sounds like FWD on DOT will probably be better in the rain and similar in the dry although race cars may be better balanced fore and aft compared to street cars.

 

OK, comparing some of the various popular configurations for ST

 

Assuming 2500 lb, 4 door AWD, RWD Coupe, 4 door FWD (to minimize variables)

 

AWD correction factors

weight -.75

AWD -.5

4 door +.4

tires +.8 (245 tires)

----------------------------

Total AWD Correction Factors = -.05

 

Total FWD Correction Factors = 1.45

Total RWD Correction Factors = .05

 

FWD = 2500/(8.7-1.45) = ~345HP

RWD = 2500/(8.7-.05) = ~289HP

AWD = 2500/(8.7+.05) = ~286HP

 

I'd still go with the FWD but the RWD Coupes like the Porsches, Corvette, Viper and other traditional sports cars are at a significant disadvantage.

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Shawn M.
In the ST classes, motor can be changed so - have at it and get as much power as you need. Move it down, back, get the balance better etc. I was just reading about a Mazda 6 FWD with 1000hp which has run under 8 seconds in the quarter mile.

 

 

A race-ready, Bergenholtz's MAZDASPEED full tube-chassis front-wheel-drive drag car will harness more than 1000 horsepower and run the quarter mile in just over 7.5 seconds at nearly 200 mph.

 

Thats a purpose built car that ONLY goes in a straight line. I dare ya to get 1000hp to the ground comming out of any corner. It just wont happen.

 

 

If a production GM FWD grocery getter can do 13.8 in the quarter mile, yeah baby. There is interesting discussing about FWD and RWD traction issues, it sounds like FWD on DOT will probably be better in the rain and similar in the dry although race cars may be better balanced fore and aft compared to street cars.

 

 

Some of those RWD cars run 11.6 right out of the box. And, again, this is a straight line, hook and go comparison. It wasnt that long ago that a FWD car running 10's was out of this world! But alas, much has been learned to make a FWD car go fast in a very straight line.

 

The rain is the only place a FWD car might have some advantage over a RWD. For me, id much rather have a RWD car but then again, I always like a big fat challenge. Besides, how many rain events have we seen in Socal in the last 3 years? Very few indeed. Not nearly enough to win a championship!

 

 

Assuming 2500 lb, 4 door AWD, RWD Coupe, 4 door FWD (to minimize variables)

 

Hmm, assume a 2300lb car instead.... just for the sake of discussion

 

 

I'd still go with the FWD but the RWD Coupes like the Porsches, Corvette, Viper and other traditional sports cars are at a significant disadvantage.

 

Significant? I think it will be track dependant. No different than how it is with the 06 rules really. Some cars will do better in the tighter more technical tracks and others will thrive in the open spaces of Willow.

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JCraven

 

 

Hmm, assume a 2300lb car instead.... just for the sake of discussion

 

 

 

Significant? I think it will be track dependant. No different than how it is with the 06 rules really. Some cars will do better in the tighter more technical tracks and others will thrive in the open spaces of Willow.

 

Sure, I could do the same calculations for 2400, 2800, 3000, 3500lbs and the 4D FWD will have a significant hp advantage over the other cars. The correction factors are linear if the cars have the same weight. Now, I haven't even began to discuss why lighter cars are penalized but are given back points for smaller tires. It's a step correction factor, creating more unique opportunities and problems for certain models. However, the low hanging fruit still appears to be the FWD and 4 door correction factors.

 

So, at what track will a Corvette or Porsche with 19% less horsepower be able to beat a comparable 4 door FWD racer? I don't want to hear about US market FWD understeering pigs. There are many successful FWD race cars in WC such as Mazda and Honda/Acura. Has VW had much success?

 

The track I would be most interested in discussing would be Mid-Ohio since the most important NASA race will be held there.

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Shawn M.
So, at what track will a Corvette or Porsche with 19% less horsepower be able to beat a comparable 4 door FWD racer? I don't want to hear about US market FWD understeering pigs. There are many successful FWD race cars in WC such as Mazda and Honda/Acura. Has VW had much success?

 

I think Buttonwillow, Willow Springs, Ca Speedway, Infinion, Miller, and oh yeah Mid Ohio they will have the advantage that I can think of. I think especially the Porsche could be a factor on ANY track.

 

VW has had ZERO success. But also never had the factory backing like Mazda and Acura does either.

 

 

The track I would be most interested in discussing would be Mid-Ohio since the most important NASA race will be held there.

 

 

Yeah, that track does reward power, but also demands you bring a car that can get thru the turns efficiently. Otherwise there are too many places to get set up and passed.

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TexaST-1

Please bring all of the "Corvette Killers" out. I love the competition speculation!

 

I am more affraid of a Porsche Cup Car than anything else. Low HP, Low WT, Hugh driver ability to effect out come. Classes wrong and it WILL BE a CLASS KILLER!

Edited by Guest

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Greg G.

I still haven't classed it (i.e. given it a modification factor if necessary since it is not a car approved for street use). Feel free to send me your thoughts on an appropriate factor. (I set the Comp Coupe at -.2)

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ssmith

OK, comparing some of the various popular configurations for ST

 

Assuming 2500 lb, 4 door AWD, RWD Coupe, 4 door FWD (to minimize variables)

 

Total AWD Correction Factors = -.05

Total FWD Correction Factors = 1.45

Total RWD Correction Factors = .05

 

FWD = 2500/(8.7-1.45) = ~345HP

RWD = 2500/(8.7-.05) = ~289HP

AWD = 2500/(8.7+.05) = ~286HP

 

To keep it even, you should compare a 4 door RWD car, like a '97 or '98 BMW M3. Total RWD Correction Factor = .45

 

FWD = 2500/(8.7-1.45) = ~345HP

RWD = 2500/(8.7-.45) = ~303HP

AWD = 2500/(8.7+.05) = ~286HP

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kbrew8991

I'd love to see someone try to get off a corner with a 345whp FWD car on 245mm tires

 

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Shawn M.
I'd love to see someone try to get off a corner with a 345whp FWD car on 245mm tires

 

 

 

 

Psssshhhhhh.......... I wouldnt mind having that problem.

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rrrracer

I think that's the biggest problem you're gonna run into... I don't know where the whatchamacallit car will fit into ST2, but the WC FWD cars don't make near the power that ST1 cars will. Shawn might be the only guy in the world who could drive one competitively with 345 HP

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