Grumpy Posted January 7, 2007 Share Posted January 7, 2007 NASA now has Official National mapping of the PT classes for enduro races http://www.nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=13922 Greg G. 3-5-07 For our (NASA-MA) enduro in Feb at VIR, we will be mapping the PT classes as follows. Comments are greatly appreciated. SU, ST1 ==> ES ST2 ==> E0 PTA ==> E1 PTB ==> E2 PTC,D,E,F ==> E3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted January 7, 2007 National Staff Share Posted January 7, 2007 For our (NASA-MA) enduro in Feb at VIR, we will be mapping the PT classes as follows. Comments are greatly appreciated. SU, ST1 ==> ES ST2 ==> E0 PTA ==> E1 PTB ==> E2 PTC,D,E,F ==> E3 Jim, PTC and PTD are way too fast for E3. SU, ST1, and ST2 should all be ES PTA may be ok in E0 PTB and PTC in E1 PTD and PTE in E2 PTF in E3 PTE cars include all Spec Miatas. Pro7's that were in E2 also, are either in PTE or PTF. Honda 4 cars (E2) are mostly in PTD. SER's (E2) are mostly in PTD, but some may be in PTE if de-modded a bit. PTC and PTB cars are faster than H4 cars, but slower than H1(E0). PTA includes H1 cars, USTCC cars, etc. All PT and TT classes will be faster this year than last year due to the increased number of free modifications allowed, as well as the increased number of participants and cars being built specifically for PT and TT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grumpy Posted January 7, 2007 Author Share Posted January 7, 2007 In the enduro rules Legends map to E3. In the PT rules Ledends map to PTC. That's why I mapped PTC to E3. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shawn M. Posted January 7, 2007 Members Share Posted January 7, 2007 (edited) In the enduro rules Legends map to E3.In the PT rules Ledends map to PTC. That's why I mapped PTC to E3. Thanks OK, so which classing do we use, your's of Gregs? Edited January 7, 2007 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grumpy Posted January 7, 2007 Author Share Posted January 7, 2007 National has not yet posted the National Mappings. My mappings will be for NASA-MA ONLY at our Feb enduro. I am planning to go with Greg's suggestions. THIS HAS NO IMPLICATIONS FOR ANY OTHER REGIONS. EACH REGION IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR OWN UNTIL THE NATIONAL MAPPING ARE POSTED. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shawn M. Posted January 7, 2007 Members Share Posted January 7, 2007 THIS HAS NO IMPLICATIONS FOR ANY OTHER REGIONS. EACH REGION IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR OWN UNTIL THE NATIONAL MAPPING ARE POSTED. Thanks. darn it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCraven Posted January 7, 2007 Share Posted January 7, 2007 PT cars are capable of significant hp increases, many PTF cars could be built putting out over 200 whp. http://www.nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=12703&start=0 One doesn't want to map based on back marker cars do you? Practically, these uber PT cars haven't been built yet but expect the forced induction variants to dominate. For this next event, you could use the following but it won't work if someone builds 9/10s for PT all the rest go in ==> ES PTC ==> E0 PTD ==> E1 2nd Gen RX7 PTE ==> E2 - SM/PS7* PTF ==> E3 - Pro7/GTI Cup * simple carb and intake on the RX7 can increase power from 140 to 155 hp and still be in PTE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grumpy Posted January 7, 2007 Author Share Posted January 7, 2007 I'd like to see Greg's comments on your mappings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted January 8, 2007 National Staff Share Posted January 8, 2007 For this next event, you could use the following but it won't work if someone builds 9/10s for PT all the rest go in ==> ES PTC ==> E0 PTD ==> E1 2nd Gen RX7 PTE ==> E2 - SM/PS7* PTF ==> E3 - Pro7/GTI Cup The following cars are mapped to E0: AI (ST2/PTA) CMC2 (PTB/?PTA) FFR (PTA) GAC GS/ST (PTA/PTB) USTCC (PTA/PTB) HC1 (PTA) WCTC (ST2/PTA) T2 (PTB/PTC) These cars are mapped to E1: CMC (PTC) HC2/HC3 (PTB/PTC) ITS (PTB/PTC/PTD) These cars are mapped to E2: 944 (PTD) H4 (PTD) ITA (PTD/PTE) Pro 7 (PTE/PTF) SER (PTD) SM (PTE) And for E3: H5 (PTF) GTI (PTF) Based on the above, it is definitely appears that PTC should not be mapped to E0. It would be more appropriate for E1. PTB seems to be split between E0 and E1, so it would be appropriate to map it to E0 to be conservative on initial classing. As well, there are plenty of PTA cars that are mapped to E0 (and some ST2 cars). So, I think that PTA should also be mapped to E0. The only problem with mapping PTD to E2 is that some of the ITS cars end up in PTD (like the second gen RX-7's.) Otherwise the rest of the cars in PTD already map to E2. The lap times that I've seen between those RX-7's and our H4 cars are not far apart, and are probably close enough to map them together in enduro classing. But, the more conservative route would be to put them in E1 with PTC. Either way, there is going to be an "issue" for some of these cars. There would probably be less "issues" with the PTD cars mapped to E2. The PTE's can clearly map to E2. The PTF's can map to E3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCraven Posted January 8, 2007 Share Posted January 8, 2007 Time will tell how fast these PT cars will get if racers choose PT and start optimizing their cars. The PTF cars should actually become too fast for E3 but maybe NASA will choose to let PT define the E3 class' speed. For example, GTI Cup has been a competitive car in the E3 class but under PT rules, one can be selective in the modifications and a choose a much bigger cam for +6 and increase horsepower and stay in PTF but be much faster than any other legal E3 car. However, there are other PT cars which theoretically could be built to PTF specification and go much faster than the GTI. The ITB Mustang 2.3 is a typical IT car which is E3 legal. In PT, one can build an early Turbo version, prep the suspension to IT specs and do some simple engine mods to increase hp well over 200hp. What you end up is a PTF car with 200+ rwhp. For enduro purposes, one can detune it a bit but this will be one kick ass car for the PTF class and will dust all prior E3 or E2 competitors based on the old class mapping. It should be fast enough to compete with E1 cars for that matter. Remember, we are talking PTF here. Will anyone ever build one? Many PT cars have scary potential to be very fast. I want one! Joe Craven Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCraven Posted January 8, 2007 Share Posted January 8, 2007 (edited) In the enduro rules Legends map to E3.In the PT rules Ledends map to PTC. That's why I mapped PTC to E3. Thanks Yes, but the legends are required to keep their "small" stock gas tank and BFGoodrich treaded street tires and I recall that the extra pit stops are what equalized them to E3 rather than what the lap times they are theoretically capable of turning. Put in a bigger gas tank and these cars will have to run in a higher class. Edited January 8, 2007 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grumpy Posted January 8, 2007 Author Share Posted January 8, 2007 Greg, Thanks for the timely input. I will be using your mappings for our race. Nothing is perfect. We'll see how close we come. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtm68 Posted January 8, 2007 Share Posted January 8, 2007 So is the 'current' final answer: PTB E0 PTC E1 PTD E1 (E2?) PTE E2 PTF E3 ? thanks, Marcus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grumpy Posted January 8, 2007 Author Share Posted January 8, 2007 So is the 'current' final answer:PTB E0 PTC E1 PTD E1 (E2?) PTE E2 PTF E3 ? thanks, Marcus Nooooo..... SU, ST1, and ST2 should all be ES PTA may be ok in E0 PTB and PTC in E1 PTD and PTE in E2 PTF in E3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted January 8, 2007 National Staff Share Posted January 8, 2007 Nooooo..... SU, ST1, and ST2 should all be ES PTA may be ok in E0 PTB and PTC in E1 PTD and PTE in E2 PTF in E3 Jim, I guess I should have posted a summary of what I wrote. Based on the class listings and mappings that I found, Joe convinced me that PTB should be E0 also. And, the real question mark is whether PTD should be E1. I think that ultimately, it will be. PT enduro classing should start fairly conservatively. And, clearly, the more conservative move would be to put PTD in E1. So, I would suggest: SU, ST1, ST2: ES PTA, PTB: E0 PTC, PTD: E1 PTE: E2 PTF: E3 I think that Jerry will be looking at all of this soon as well to get official mapping, but I'm not sure when, and whether he wants to see some races under the '07 rules before making his decisions. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grumpy Posted January 8, 2007 Author Share Posted January 8, 2007 OK What he said! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knestis Posted January 9, 2007 Share Posted January 9, 2007 Are the GTS classes aligned to the enduro classing as well? We'll be there with the new Golf, Jim. Just curious, since I'll probably have a dyno sheet by that time and be GTS legal. Kirk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanElam Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 If you are going to move ST-1 and especially ST-2, can you at least waive the DOT tire requirement? There is a *huge* gap between the cars now running in ES and ST-2, in part because the ES guys automatically can run non-DOT tires. In today's sprint world, SU is the only class that matches up to ES since ES doesn't have a 'natural' class to map to. At least in ST-2, the formulas for DOT tires look like that are going to match up closer to PTA based on the tube-frame RX-7s that ran at Nationals. (Even the top PTB cars look like they would match up attractively.) Granted, it is early, but it would appear to me that the ST classes will be much more popular than SU for the sprint races, so the enduros would be well suited to embrace in the lower classes those rather than relegate them to a$$-whoppings against the SU/ES cars. As it is suggested in this thread, you couldn't suggest any ST car to run at Thunderhill for hopes of winning anything. For the other enduros, it is basically just if a regular SU/ES car doesn't show up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted January 11, 2007 National Staff Share Posted January 11, 2007 Dan, I'm not following you on your post above. But, have you looked at what the other classes are that are already mapped to ES? Here are some: AI extreme Multiple BMWCCA classes EP FP, GP, HP on slicks GT1, GT2, GT3 (and GTL on slicks) T1 WCGT VVC-all (now ST1/ST2/SU) T1 cars match right up to our ST2 class, etc. All of those cars listed above except for the tube-frame cars fit into ST. So, what you are really asking for is a complete reclassification of the enduro classing of ES, since it does encompass cars of such varying levels of performance. Talk to Jerry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeLee Posted January 18, 2007 Share Posted January 18, 2007 I am not sure about California but here on the East Coast the H5 cars regularly run as fast or faster than the frontrunning Spec Miata. They should be overdogs in E3. Too, what happened to reclassing Ford/Renault Spec Racers into E2 instead of ESR (where they have no chance against Radical, Diasio, Thunder Roadster, WSR, etc)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted January 18, 2007 National Staff Share Posted January 18, 2007 We don't have any H5 cars out here (? one or two). Although I would imagine that there could have been some in the 25 hour in the past. I'm not sure. The RSR is classed in PTB, so perhaps that will change their enduro classing once the Official PT enduro mapping is done. So, that would possibly get them down to E0 under the Mid-Atlantic regions temporary mapping. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeLee Posted January 18, 2007 Share Posted January 18, 2007 An RSR in PTB - what's the rationalization for that? They only run as fast the local H5 cars and we have some solid RSRs ( with great drivers in them) out here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted January 18, 2007 National Staff Share Posted January 18, 2007 An RSR in PTB - what's the rationalization for that? They only run as fast the local H5 cars and we have some solid RSRs ( with great drivers in them) out here. I'm not sure what to say about your RSR lap times out there, but we still have track records from RSR's out here that are faster than H1 cars. I have no idea how an H5 car can beat your good drivers in RSR's. http://socal.drivenasa.com/index.php?categoryid=14&p2_articleid=10 Take a look at BW #1 (full track) and Willow Springs times. The one track we visit that their times don't hold up is at California Speedway, which is really a high hp track. Whenever we class a non-production vehicle like a spec racer, or tube-frame spec car like the Mazda GT, if there is not a clear-cut class for the car, where it won't automatically become the dominant car that is necessary to own to win, we must be hedge toward the conservative side when classing it. In this case, the best lap times that we have seen out here, are very competitive in PTB. But, granted, the RSR racers we have seen here lately are not as fast as in the past. I don't believe that it is the cars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeLee Posted January 18, 2007 Share Posted January 18, 2007 Are we talking about the same cars? Renault Spec Racers ... same car as Spec Racer Ford except with less motor (it's a friggin Renault ) I think your H1 cars must suck or the RSR guys are seriously cheating! Either way, I agree that whenever you move a car into a class you must be conservative! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted January 18, 2007 National Staff Share Posted January 18, 2007 I think the H1 cars suck too. The only problem is that they always beat me I can't really say if those RSR guys were cheating back then, but it was when the series was a lot hotter, and I know they were getting teched more aggressively back then than in the past 1-2 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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