What car & class is everyone planning to run in 2007?

[Greg G.]

Yeah, as long as you do it before the event, that's the problem. It's too late by the time they put us on the dyno after an event to verify.

 

You know, I just noticed that it says "equal to or less than," so I've been off by .05 in my calculations (yours, too), because my 3367 falls in the 3400 and below category, whereas I was using the 3350 as my measurement. I guess it doesn't hurt to use that as a buffer by estimating low, but still, that's nice to know. I can now go up to exactly 389whp instead of 385, haha.

 

Nope. Read it again. It does say "equal to or greater than" for cars that are greater than 3299 lbs. It "says equal to or less than" for cars weighing less than 3201 lbs. The TTS/TTU/TTR Car Classification Form has it in even a more simple format to follow.

[warrtalon]

Yeah, as long as you do it before the event, that's the problem. It's too late by the time they put us on the dyno after an event to verify.

 

You know, I just noticed that it says "equal to or less than," so I've been off by .05 in my calculations (yours, too), because my 3367 falls in the 3400 and below category, whereas I was using the 3350 as my measurement. I guess it doesn't hurt to use that as a buffer by estimating low, but still, that's nice to know. I can now go up to exactly 389whp instead of 385, haha.

 

Nope. Read it again. It does say "equal to or greater than" for cars that are greater than 3299 lbs. It "says equal to or less than" for cars weighing less than 3201 lbs. The TTS/TTU/TTR Car Classification Form has it in even a more simple format to follow.

 

Reading > me. This is probably why I originally calculated things the way I was. I must have just seen the "less than" today without realizing it's different for the lower weight cars.

[hagakure]

good luck Dave....your main competition will be that crazy fast guy in the E36 M3 that went 2:03.7 at t-hill last year in TTC.....

 

 

 

 

No engine mods whatsoever except for cat back, but only one point to spare. Gotta love the new rules...unfortunately GG is going to pull out the rubber glove in tech, but he will find nothing .

 

TTB 04 Evo RS

 

--

David Bongiovanni

http://www.GoodsportRacing.com

 

Good Lord, DB in TTB with an RS is killer, although that means it will have almost no mods - mainly tires and a nice suspension, eh.

[PtBy]

It appears that I'm going to end up in TTC this year.

 

The car is essentially unchanged from 2006 where it never was close to the times the leading TTC cars were running.

 

So who else got bumped up this year? I hope a few of you fast guys in TTC in socal are shifting up a class!

 

Well, now it looks like my options are:

• Run in TTB. Will be able to add a little more power (currently 254HP wheel)
  Run in TTC and reinstall the interior plus add 150 lbs of ballast (about 300 lbs more weight)
  Go for it in TTA. Totally gut the car and crank up the boost!

[Markus]

TTS in OH/IN region with my 240sx weighing 2800lbs (with driver) making approximately 330whp.

 

If you couldn't compete in TTE....randomly adding more power won't help...

 

Driver skill > HP

 

....you know I'm just kidding Rob -- good luck in TTS!

 

- Markus (slow arse stuck in TTE driver)

[Rob S.]

TTS in OH/IN region with my 240sx weighing 2800lbs (with driver) making approximately 330whp.

 

If you couldn't compete in TTE....randomly adding more power won't help...

 

Driver skill > HP

 

....you know I'm just kidding Rob -- good luck in TTS!

 

- Markus (slow arse stuck in TTE driver)

 

Thanks for the vote of confidence.....

 

Well.......TTE wasn't going to work for my car this year. The rules hit my car HARD for some reason (I wasn't aware of 240sx cars out there dominating). Base class went from TTF to TTF** for the 240sx and stayed the same for cars that I feel should have moved up; cars with factory turbos, factory performance parts and better weight/hp ratio. I think the car to have if you are going to stay in TTF - TTA is a factory turbocharged car. You can get significantly more horsepower per engine mod point than an NA car. Not to mention that a lot of turbocharged cars were derated by the factory for insurance purposes. The SRT-4 in stock form makes the hp to the wheels that the Dodge claimed at the flywheel (and it went down in base class ).

 

I know I can get a car that is better suited for a specific class but I'm partial to my 240sx so I decided to turbocharge it. We'll see how it goes.

 

BTW - GET THAT MIATA FIXED ALREADY!

[Lemming]

At the moment the SE regional TT director has suggested that I run my car in TTB. The car has had an engine swap but Greg has not yet classified it.

 

As for the car, it's a 1988 924S with a 1995 3.0L 968 motor and 951 transmision. I call it my sleeper

[Greg G.]

At the moment the SE regional TT director has suggested that I run my car in TTB. The car has had an engine swap but Greg has not yet classified it.

 

As for the car, it's a 1988 924S with a 1995 3.0L 968 motor and 951 transmision. I call it my sleeper

 

Did you send me the information necessary to class it yet? (Dynojet hp and competition weight for this swap). Or, is the car not ready yet?

[Lemming]

At the moment the SE regional TT director has suggested that I run my car in TTB. The car has had an engine swap but Greg has not yet classified it.

 

As for the car, it's a 1988 924S with a 1995 3.0L 968 motor and 951 transmision. I call it my sleeper

 

Did you send me the information necessary to class it yet? (Dynojet hp and competition weight for this swap). Or, is the car not ready yet?

 

Yes, I sent you an email on Jan. 29th (copied to Chris Desalvo) with all the information and sent a follow-up PM (from this site) the following week with no response. Let me know if I need to resend it.

[Greg G.]

Well.......TTE wasn't going to work for my car this year. The rules hit my car HARD for some reason (I wasn't aware of 240sx cars out there dominating). Base class went from TTF to TTF** for the 240sx and stayed the same for cars that I feel should have moved up; cars with factory turbos, factory performance parts and better weight/hp ratio. I think the car to have if you are going to stay in TTF - TTA is a factory turbocharged car. You can get significantly more horsepower per engine mod point than an NA car. Not to mention that a lot of turbocharged cars were derated by the factory for insurance purposes. The SRT-4 in stock form makes the hp to the wheels that the Dodge claimed at the flywheel (and it went down in base class ).

Here we go again. The insinuations are getting old. Actually, there were 240SX's out there dominating (in Arizona), but it had nothing to do with the reason they moved up in class. The reason that ALL cars moved up or down in class was based on the more objective base classing system that we used this year. With all of the free mods this year, as well as the large number of cars that will need to be re-classed due to motor swaps, aftermarket or modified forced induction, aftermarket heads/hybrids, we needed a more simple (plug in formula) system to base-class cars. Many of the small items that we used to look at for base classing, like whether a car had the ability to obtain "free camber", or whether it came stock with better brakes are no longer part of the evaluation. And, we have always based all classing on the manufacturer listed hp ratings. Other than going to a system where we dyno every single car in TT and PT (which is my preference, but not NASA's), we have no choice. And, we are not going to single out any particular car for having the manufacturer list the flywheel hp too high. I'm sure there are plenty of them out there that don't have a flywheel hp listing that is 7.5-10% higher (for FWD/RWD, and 15-25% for AWD) than it's actual stock chassis dyno numbers. In fact, I know there are. But, since we can't test them all, it would be unfair to try and single out a few. Now, I guess I got ripped off when I got my SRT4, because it only made 218 fwhp stock (factory list is 230 hp). In fact, I've seen stock dyno numbers on SRT4's anywhere from 202 to 228 fwhp. I would imagine that the difference is due to the fine quality of workmanship put into building these finely tuned precision automobiles. There are plenty of others out there that are in the same situation. Again, NASA does not want to go to a 100% "every car must be dyno'd before it can compete" system. I offered it up, and it was rejected.

 

Now, as to the classing of turbos/superchargers in general, I offered to put a factor into the base class formula for OEM forced induction, that would have lifted every OEM FI vehicle up by one asterix more than where they currently are at. It was rejected by NASA, and it really wouldn't be fair to those with FI vehicles that decide to leave the OEM power alone (unless you prescribe to Rob's notion that every FI vehicle is underrated by the factory for insurance reasons. So what happened to the RX-8 that was overrated for the purpose of increasing sales? Hmmm, could there actually be a balancing effect here that keeps the manufacturers close to telling the truth?). Instead, it was decided to increase the mod points associated with power modifications of FI vehicles. I offered to increase the mod points higher for FI modified parts than in the past, and this was partially accepted as seen in the higher point values that came out in the Official rules release. However, I offered to actually go higher than was accepted by NASA. Are they high enough now, I'm not sure? I guess we will find out this year. Can we increase them next year if necessary? Yes. Is there some sinister conspiracy to give forced induction cars an advantage? Don't think so. Is everyone that believes that the turbo and supercharged cars are the best way to win free to change to one? Yes. And, even if forced induction cars do end up dominating, does it mean that the cars are dominating, or that the best drivers decided to go with forced induction cars after Rob (and others) convinced them that it is a necessity, or because they decided it is a cheaper way to get power?

 

The 240SX was grossly underclassed last year based on its wt/power ratio (and RWD) compared to every similar car out there. The classing of this car was straight off of the base class formula. There was no subjective component involved in the classing that moved it up. The SRT4 was the same. It was classed directly off the forumula, with no subjective increase or decrease. It was a straight wt/power ratio, and the FWD factor that we have for all FWD vehicles. And, it was reviewed, then re-reviewed by NASA to make sure that it was in line with the rest of the classing system. In fact, the large majority of cars were classed this way. Yes, that includes the S2000's. And when I say subjective, I mean increasing the car's class based on harder to define items such as suspension, engineering, and OEM aerodynamics. (OEM aero could be an objective factor, but you go and try and find cf's on 715 model groups of cars--impossible). The BMW's that guys were complaining about that moved down in '07 actually DID take a hit in the "subjective" department due to their OEM suspension and engineering. Under this new classing system, it was about one third of the cars that moved down and one third that moved up. However, some of the more subjective, "Well, Johnny was too fast last year, let's move his class up, or Jimmy was too slow, we can give him a break and move his base class down" has now been removed from the system. That system works fine when you have just a few hundred drivers of varying experience and skill levels, and want to even things out (even for the lesser skilled drivers). We now have more than a thousand drivers to deal with (TT and PT), and we need to try to keep the system as objective as possible.

 

So, is Rob correct that the best car to have in '07 is an OEM turbo/supercharged car where you don't modify the turbo/supercharger and get a new base class? He could be right in the mid-range classes, but I doubt it in the lower classes or in TTA, but I guess we will find out. I think it's more a matter of who chooses to drive what. And, frankly, I think that I could come up with combinations of NA cars for any class that can be competitive with any FI car. And I'm not half as smart as some of the guys out there in this department. Keep an eye on the PT cars as racers start to build them for the class. I think the TT drivers will get a few surprises as to what untapped potential there has been (especially for NA cars).

[John Graber]

Rob works for Garret Turbochargers so watch what challenges you throw down GG.

 

Also, please limit you responses to 50 words or less. I have adult ADD and can not get to the end of many of these posts.

Edited January 17, 2007 by Guest

[Greg G.]

Yes, I sent you an email on Jan. 29th (copied to Chris Desalvo) with all the information and sent a follow-up PM (from this site) the following week with no response. Let me know if I need to resend it.

 

Well, no wonder, Jan 29th, it won't get here for another 12 days . No, I haven't seen an e-mail or a PM regarding this swap. I checked back through both systems, and can't find any missing messages. Go ahead and re-send to me by e-mail. I don't use the PM system for swaps, because I need to keep a record of the communications. I'll send you a reply as soon as I get it so you know that it got to me. cc. Chris also.

Thanks.

[Greg G.]

Rob works for Garret Turbochargers.

Also, please limit you responses to 50 words or less. I have adult ADD and can not get to the end of your posts.

I know where he works, and take some Adderal or Ritalin or something I think that anyone else that puts similar insinuations in their posts will now be subjected to a copy of that diatribe, as well as a PM copy of it

[Lemming]

Yes, I sent you an email on Jan. 29th (copied to Chris Desalvo) with all the information and sent a follow-up PM (from this site) the following week with no response. Let me know if I need to resend it.

 

Well, no wonder, Jan 29th, it won't get here for another 12 days . No, I haven't seen an e-mail or a PM regarding this swap. I checked back through both systems, and can't find any missing messages. Go ahead and re-send to me by e-mail. I don't use the PM system for swaps, because I need to keep a record of the communications. I'll send you a reply as soon as I get it so you know that it got to me. cc. Chris also.

Thanks.

 

Sent.

[Greg G.]

Sent.

 

Received and classing completed.

[1LapAl]

I'll be running TTB OH/IN in my 2006 STI. I will put up a good fight but I know I am going to get stomped by the E36 M3's, E46 M3's and EVO RS's. I plan on putting all my points into suspension/tires and will probably just have to run stock power to stay out of TTA.

 

I have a lot of experience in TT and open passing (Competed in the Car and Driver One Lap of America Last Year). I plan on running HPDE 4 this April at Mid Ohio and hopefully will get awarded the opportunity to compete in TT at the next event.

 

Let the games begin!

[Greg G.]

All you need is one successful day in HPDE4 to qualify. So, make sure you have your forms completed and ready to go on Sunday (Car Classification Form and TT License Application). Let John Graber know what you are planning on Saturday. Good luck.

Edited January 18, 2007 by Guest

[1LapAl]

All you need is one successful day in HPDE4 to qualify. So, make sure you have your forms completed and ready to go on Sunday (Car Classification Form and TT License Application). Let John Graber know what you are planning on Saturday. Good luck.

 

Thanks! It should be a fun summer.

[Rob S.]

Rob works for Garret Turbochargers.

Also, please limit you responses to 50 words or less. I have adult ADD and can not get to the end of your posts.

I know where he works, and take some Adderal or Ritalin or something I think that anyone else that puts similar insinuations in their posts will now be subjected to a copy of that diatribe, as well as a PM copy of it

 

I apologize for causing Greg carpal tunnel, others blurry vision and bringing up something that has already been beaten to death. I didn't mean to ruffle any feathers or insinuate anything. I was just stating some examples. My honest apologizes Greg. I just have a hard time and don't agree with assessing the same points for certain mods done to an NA car and an FI car; example - air filter change or exhaust work. The benefit/outcome is different.....and now I will not say another word.....promise. A lot of work went into the rules by many people and I appreciate the hard work. Bottom line is that I have and will always follow the rules (I will just do so in TTS this year where I too can be turbocharged, free and happy. - jk). However, I don't have to agree with all of the rules.

 

BTW1 - I never said that "every FI vehicle is underrated by the factory for insurance reasons." The RX-8 had several issues when put on the dyno.

 

BTW2 - I wish it were that easy to get everyone to listen to me.

[Greg G.]

No problem, Rob. But, I've seen to many of those type of posts lead to a free-for-all hunting session, and I'm getting a little tired of being the duck. And, I agree, nobody has to agree with any of the rules; just follow them, try not to complain too much, and all will be fine. If I had a RWD car, I would probably be right up there in TTS with you.

[Thom_S]

After tearing down my engine and finding I ran my fastest lap at Buttonwillow in October on 6 cylinders in my Mustang, I am putting a stock engine in and running TTA again this year. I don't know how 225hp is going to do in TTA but we'll see.

[racercosmo]

I'll have my MX6 in TTG or F. It's hard now that I start with +14, but so far all I have done is put coilovers on the stock struts. Oh, what do I do with my 1 point, or do I move up a class, run real tires, and go forward a little more.

[Greg G.]

I'll have my MX6 in TTG or F. It's hard now that I start with +14, but so far all I have done is put coilovers on the stock struts. Oh, what do I do with my 1 point, or do I move up a class, run real tires, and go forward a little more.

 

There is no TTG competition in '07. Someone didn't read the rules

 

Also, the MX-6 that I'm looking at starts in TTG* (only 7 points to start with), but I assume you meant 14 after you added tire points?

[racercosmo]

I'll have my MX6 in TTG or F. It's hard now that I start with +14, but so far all I have done is put coilovers on the stock struts. Oh, what do I do with my 1 point, or do I move up a class, run real tires, and go forward a little more.

 

There is no TTG competition in '07. Someone didn't read the rules

 

Also, the MX-6 that I'm looking at starts in TTG* (only 7 points to start with), but I assume you meant 14 after you added tire points?

Ok, got me there on both.

I missed the part about TTG and TTH.

My Bimmer does start +14 and I was confused. (always)

[Coloradomark]

I'll be in TTB again with my '95 Carrera. Stock engine and brakes, some mods to the suspension.