Rook Posted January 27, 2007 Share Posted January 27, 2007 Is there really a difference between 13" and 14" front brake systems dramatic enough to warrant the rediculous price difference? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nape Posted January 27, 2007 Share Posted January 27, 2007 Look into brake systems that are purpose built for racing/tracking and you shouldn't need 14" rotors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XAIX Posted January 28, 2007 Share Posted January 28, 2007 Ok this rotor thing is starting to get stupid. There is no doubt that I am a hard core kind of guy. I prefer to race AIX and not AI. What kind of car are you going to build. What will it weigh? Are you going to RACE it or are you just going to have fun at open track events? If you are going to RACE it, are you serious about winning or are you happy to just fill the field? Yes there is a difference between 13’ and 14†Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_venturini Posted January 28, 2007 Share Posted January 28, 2007 "Let’s look at some common rotor ‘modification’ and ‘performance’ upgrades that you may have been exposed to and try to separate the marketing from the engineering… Super Sizing Bigger rotors will make your friends think you are cool, bigger rotors look sexy, but bigger rotors do not stop the car. What a bigger rotor will do is lower the overall operating temperature of the brakes – which is a GREAT idea IF your temperatures are causing problems with other parts of the braking system. Take for example a F500 racecar – a small 800 pound single seat formula car. While the brakes are certainly much smaller than those found on a 3,000 pound GT1 Camaro, that does not necessarily mean that they need to be made larger. In fact, swapping on a GT1 brake package would probably do more harm than good – that’s a lot of steel hanging on the wheel that needs to accelerate each time the ‘go’ pedal is pushed. So, the motto of this story is bigger is better until your temperatures are under control. After that point, you are doing more harm than good…unless you really like the look (and hey – some of us do!). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gfaules Posted January 28, 2007 Share Posted January 28, 2007 To simply say "Bigger is Better" is not an accurate statement even with brakes. In many cases it can be true but if you want a "properly" set up car with "optimum" braking it is important to remember this key word... "Balance". Just putting a larger brake rotor of pad on the front of a car is not the answer. However, if you are researching a better performing brake system the best advise is to check it out with the reputable brake manufactures. They have done thousands of hours of engineering and testing to determine down to a gnat's ass what best fits a specific application. To simply throw something on a race car because my buddy saw it on some other cool/fast car can be bad advice. A bigger pad of the same compound in the same location as a smaller pad will not yield shorter stopping distances. The amount of pressure applied, pad friction coefficient, and the diameter on the rotor at which that pressure is applied, determine the torque reaction, or stopping force. A bigger pad does not apply more pressure, only the same pressure over a bigger area. Where the size of the pad matters is in terms of heat capacity and wear rate. A larger pad will absorb more initial heat (less thermal shock), and have better wear characteristics (longer pad life). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XAIX Posted January 28, 2007 Share Posted January 28, 2007 chris_venturini, Gfaules, Thank you for restating my comment about larger rotors dissipating more heat and that was my intent in my comment about a larger pad also. I don’t believe I have ever told someone “to simply throw something on a race car because my buddy saw it on some other cool/fast car†Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gfaules Posted January 28, 2007 Share Posted January 28, 2007 "Let’s get a grip here however." Great pun. LOL. Speaking of getting a grip, you seem to be wanting a flame war but I assure you that was in no way my intention nor do I think it was anyone else's either but was simply "discussing". But if you aren't open-minded enough to do that then I'll bow out and allow you to go off on those who don't mind. But before I do I would like to say that I have some friends that run in the Speed World Challenge non of which have engineers on their teams. They do as many of us do in that they try this or try that in an attempt to come up with what works best for them. I'm happy to report none of them are know-it-alls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XAIX Posted January 29, 2007 Share Posted January 29, 2007 Gfaules, I don’t want a flame war and I’m sorry if my posting style makes it seem so to you. I certainly would be the first to admit that I am a long long way from knowing it all and I too have done my share of trying this and that…sometimes just because someone said it couldn’t be done. I would however take a look at the top teams in the particular class I was running to see what they were doing…in the case of the Speed World Challenge there is a very good reason they are using the rotor sizes they are. I believe that if they thought that using a smaller rotor would give them a strategic competitive advantage they would certainly do so. Rook asked the question…is there really a difference between a 13†Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rook Posted January 30, 2007 Author Share Posted January 30, 2007 I appreciate the responses though, perhaps I should apologize for the resulting torrent lol I do indeed plan to race the car quite competitively in the future. First, I'll need to build up experience with HPDEs and perhaps an AutoX or two when I can get to either. There's actually supposed to be an AutoX every Sunday in my area but I've had no luck in aquiring any futher information about it. I suppose a 13" set would be all I'd need for now, but I don't see the point in double spending if I'll need a 14" setup down the line. Additionally I'm just concerned, due mostly to horror stories of brake systems catching fire, about how my stock brakes will stand up to the onslaught of a track day/HPDE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RW Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 Just my $.02... I think most stock brake setups will handle the rigors of HPDE just fine. Why don't you keep what you have until you gain the experience to need something bigger/better. That will also allow you to gain more knowledge and choose a system that will meet your needs when the time comes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gfaules Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 RW & Rook, Good advice from both of you. Many times we find our self building or even overbuilding cars and often we look back to realize what we should have been doing was paying more attention to getting good coaching or at least seat time which equals experience. How many times have we all heard a rookie talking about what the car needs when in fact what was needed wasn't a car part at all. Having been a member of the Olympic shooting team I can't begin to tell you how many times I saw someone buy a new gun thinking that would increase their scores. On the other hand a "seasoned" shooter (or driver) can achieve high scores (fast lap times) with equipment that is not the biggest or the best. When it's all said and done, any driver who is worth his salt can turn a good lap time with less that perfect equipment so the bottom line is... get the basics down, get good coaching, know for a fact that you are as good as you can get before moving to the next level and leave excuses at home. I will say the first time I took my new Viper to Laguna Seca I found out stock brake pads on "some" applications are NOT ok. But then again if I had been a beginner at the time they may have worked just fine. One more thing to remember about car racing is, just like a good gun fight, you will always find someone that's a little quicker and there will always be some better six shooter for sale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IGZOSTD Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 Very well put Gfaules ,, If your worried about any heat issues , set up a duct system in the front of your car . That should take car of the heat . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rook Posted February 1, 2007 Author Share Posted February 1, 2007 Thanks alot for all the great advice, everyone. Gfaules, you have no idea how much money you're saving me lol. I'm already going to have all the suspension work done since I"m gone, but I'll take the money that would have gone towards a brake system and put it towards HPDEs, and probably a helmet and seats. (Mustang seats are abysmal) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gfaules Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 Yeah, a helmet would be a great starting point. LMAO! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nape Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 Start spending money on seat time (after the brain bucket)! I drove from HPDE 1 to 4 on stock Firebird seats, seat belts, brakes, 186k mile motor, etc. The car will only turn laps as fast as you can drive it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RW Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 Start spending money on seat time (after the brain bucket)! I drove from HPDE 1 to 4 on stock Firebird seats, seat belts, brakes, 186k mile motor, etc. The car will only turn laps as fast as you can drive it. If I had it to do over again, this is what I would have done. I have a great car now, but it was definitely done the hard way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gfaules Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 The problem back then was, most of thought we knew what we were doing and didn't need anyone telling how to drive. LOL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XAIX Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 Rook, These guys are right on about seat time. I agree that HPDE days are good but you might think about going to a good racing school. Racing schools may seem like a lot of money but when I went to Bondurant’s school when it was at Sears Point I got 20 hours of track time in 3 days! You are also using up their cars and not yours. Think about how much it would cost you for 20 hours of HPDE and wear and tear on your car. You also will be in different types of cars from big heavy GT cars to Formula cars so you will have a better idea of what kind of car you may want to race. It is buy far the best cost per second of lap time reduction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rook Posted February 2, 2007 Author Share Posted February 2, 2007 I'd really love to go to a racing school, but between deployments/training I'd never have the time. HPDEs are really the only practical option for me right now, considering there's a track within maybe an hour plus of me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gfaules Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 In general, as with any other sport, driving schools are only as good as the particular instructor you end up with. It's nice to know, there are several very good instructors within your grasp with Nor Cal NASA, many of whom will instruct for a minimal fee. Even better is the fact that dollar for dollar I guarantee utilizing a NASA instructor is a far better deal. Another bonus with using a NASA instructor is that you can meet them when you schedule permits. At the same time, it's important that any new student have good communication with their instructor meaning that if you find you don't click or understand everything they are teaching you, do not hesitate to find a different instructor. Simply say thank you, I'll call you later and try a different instructor. Here is a great analogy of something I witnessed back in the late 70's when I observed a lady taking skeet shooting lessons. Over a few weeks I watched her taking instruction from various instructors and she couldn't have hit a barn if it was right in front of her. Then one day I heard an instructor tell her to come with him to the club house where they could talk. During their random conversation he asked her what kind of work she did and she replied, "I'm a nurse." That afternoon I saw her shooting and she was hitting every target they threw so I walked over to ease-drop. As I got close enough to listen I heard the instructor say, "Ok now, I want you to lead this target the length of a bedpan. And when the target came out... BOOM! She got it. This went on for some time and by the end of the day her scores had improved amazingly. The bottom line was, she could not relate to an instructor telling her to lead about 14 inches but she had a very good understanding of how to visualize the length of a common work related item (in this case a bedpan). Once the instructor understood what it was the student was seeing the rest was history. Now, some years later, that same woman is a member of the national skeet team. The same "working relationship" is needed in order to achieve good results in a minimal period of time when finding a driver instructor and not simply one that takes you thru the motions in some school. Now, don't get me wrong, schools like Bob's are a great tool and a lot can be learned and I have known Bob for many years. But in my opinion I feel you can do far better at an early stage by using the local instructors and in your case, if you are being deployed from time to time it may be easy to forget half of what a school may teach you if you're not able to apply it regularly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XAIX Posted February 3, 2007 Share Posted February 3, 2007 Rook, In your particular case due to your time limitations etc. HPDE will have to do for now but trust me on this one if you do indeed plan to race the car quite competitively and you want to achieve the best results in a minimal period of time HPDE is not even close to an intensive 3 day racing class at Bondurant, bedpans not withstanding. If you forget it, you didn’t really pay attention and learn it and it will be reflected in your log book and end of class grade. While Bob and Parker Johnstone were my individual instructors I received instruction from many instructors over the course of the class depending on the type of car and the particular type of instruction. But hey Gfaules is probably right…who would want to take instructions from these guys…they’re just going through the motions…what a bunch of hacks. Bondurant Instructors Bob Bondurant Owner of the Bondurant School and the world's leading authority on advanced car control and driver training for over 55 years. Winner of the 1965 FIA World Manufacturers' Championship - the only American to ever achieve this mark. Mike McGovern Chief Driving Instructor Driving Instructor for 20 years at the Bondurant School Racing experience in Late Model Asphalt & Dirt, IMCA Modified, Motorola Cup, Electric Car Development for Arizona State University, and Stunt Precision Driving Craig Meintzer Assistant Chief Driving Instructor Two time National Karting Champion, Formula Ford North American National Champion, Sports 2000, and Formula Atlantics. Precision Driving for video and stills Michael McDowell Seasonal Driving Instructor for 2 years at the Bondurant School 2004 Star Mazda Series North American Champion - Record 7 wins out of 10 races, including 6 poles 2003 Star Mazda Rookie of the Year Podium first pro event - Star Mazda Sears Point 2002 Multiple poles and wins in 2002 Fran-Am 1600 series National Karting Champion Terry Borcheller Seasonal Driving Instructor for 14 years at the Bondurant School 2004 Winner, Rolex 24 At Daytona American Le Mans Series Champion 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003 Selected as co-driver for Team Cadillac in the 2004 American LeMans Series Racing Experience in World Challenge, ALMS GT1 and GT2, Grand-Am, Motorola Cup, Formula Fords, Karting and 2002 24 Hr. Daytona Championship Specialized training provided to Advanced Road Racing students 2002 Rolex Sports Car Series Champion Darren Law Seasonal Driving Instructor for 12 years at the Bondurant School Racing Experience in IKF, SCCA, IMSA, Grand-Am, NASCAR Craftsman Truck, ALMS, ASA, North American Touring Car Championship. Rolex Grand Am GT Category Championship. Precision Driving for TV commercials Specialty training provided to various government agencies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rook Posted February 3, 2007 Author Share Posted February 3, 2007 Could any of you, at the very least, suggest a school closer to North Carolina?lol I really don't want to have to plan a drive to AZ. Though..that would be fun...hmm (I always wanted to Cross-Country to AZ but that was supposed to be for the Silver State Challenge) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gfaules Posted February 3, 2007 Share Posted February 3, 2007 XAIX, I am confused as to why you feel the need to come along with some grade-school mentality comments like my Dad's smarter than your dad. I mearly posted my opinion and did it without making lite of anyone else's post which seems to be something you're not capable of controlling yourself from doing at least when I post. Since you lack the ability to make post without flaming my name in some flame contest I would appreciate it if you have something to say, just say it but leave my name out of it. This board is here to post opinions and to discuss opposing view points, not to make an attempt top prove your manhood or lack thereof. If what you are saying made any sense at all then because I spent a few days with Phil Hill that would mean I should be a world champion. For the record, I never said schools like Bobs were bad, I mearly made a suggestion that possibly in his case he might be better off starting out with a local instructor and unlike you I did not make an attempt to belittle someone. So now that you have posted your intelligent remarks (?) when you first started driving a race car was your first school Bobs or did you just go to pole at Le mans? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gfaules Posted February 3, 2007 Share Posted February 3, 2007 Rook, If it's close you want then there is a very good school near you. It is SpeedTech Auto Racing School. It is run by Randy Baker (Nascar Champ Buck Baker's son). He was chief instructor at his father's school for over 17 years, he also competed in Winston Cup, Busch Grand National, ARCA, SCCA, and for five years he managed the training for the North Carolina Highway Patrol High Performance Driver Training, and also managed the training for the U.S. Army Anti-Terrorism, Special Forces Unit. Randy is responsible for the advanced driver training of drivers such as, Jeff Gordon, Tony Stewart, Jeff and Ward Burton, Joe Nemechek, Danny Sullivan, and Lyn St. James. He is now applying all his experience and knowledge to passing on the family tradition that has made each one of the Bakers great drivers. Randy uses all new equipment and programs feature NASCAR Nextel Cup Stock Cars, Busch, Craftsman Trucks. http://www.speedtech500.com/index.html PS: One of the local NASA instructors here in Nor Cal was Bob B's top instructors for years not to mention several of others who have been top instructors or other major schools as well. Some local NASA instructors here have raced the European circuits too and as some of the best kept secrets in racing. All you need do is look around. Just recently Randy Pobst drove with us and also offered an amazing amount of instruction. Like many others, not only is he a good friend and amazing driver but a fine gentleman as well. As you will learn, buying information isn't always the best money investment when it comes to learning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rook Posted February 4, 2007 Author Share Posted February 4, 2007 Now bear with me, I'm asking this question out of pure ignorance... Can I really learn much about navigating a road coarse from an oval track school such as the above mentioned? Or is this more on a "basics of racing" angle? Yes this FEELS like a dumb question, but I think I'm better off going ahead and asking. lol Your last statement has me doing the most thinking. Hoping I can run into such gentelmen once I get a crack at HPDE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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