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Help the FWD Scion Driver

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berny2435

I'd say that both of those would be worth your money.. .

 

The prices are pretty typical too.. .

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UHSAE

Unbelievable.... I ran searches on 3 forums and didn't find anything....

 

 

Thank you very much tcx. I'll look into those immediately.

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kbrew8991

you still need to solve your front tire issue, camber is your friend

 

increasing grip is also always a good thing

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UHSAE

I spoke with some of the guys on my SAE team about this whole situation. They certainly suggested that I'm getting positive camber gains on the outside wheels in turns which is causing my really bad wear and terrible contact patch. This makes sense, and points back to getting camber plates and corner weighting the car.

 

Unfortunately, no one makes camber plates for the tC yet. The only thing sold is camber bolts, which allow for a maximum change of -1.75 degrees. This is better than nothing of course, but I figure I would be better off with more for track settings. Would the be accurate?

 

I found out that my SAE team has scales to corner weight the car with. Once I get the weights, I need to adjust the height of the suspension until the diagonals get closer to the same correct? What else needs to be done in this regard? Sorry, I've never corner weighted a car before.

 

 

--Phillip

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FocusTed
I spoke with some of the guys on my SAE team about this whole situation. They certainly suggested that I'm getting positive camber gains on the outside wheels in turns which is causing my really bad wear and terrible contact patch. This makes sense, and points back to getting camber plates and corner weighting the car.

 

Unfortunately, no one makes camber plates for the tC yet. The only thing sold is camber bolts, which allow for a maximum change of -1.75 degrees. This is better than nothing of course, but I figure I would be better off with more for track settings. Would the be accurate?

 

I found out that my SAE team has scales to corner weight the car with. Once I get the weights, I need to adjust the height of the suspension until the diagonals get closer to the same correct? What else needs to be done in this regard? Sorry, I've never corner weighted a car before.

 

 

--Phillip

 

I believe that K-Mac makes camber plates for the tC. Check with wildponymotorsports.com You might have to call them for details.

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berny2435
I spoke with some of the guys on my SAE team about this whole situation. They certainly suggested that I'm getting positive camber gains on the outside wheels in turns which is causing my really bad wear and terrible contact patch. This makes sense, and points back to getting camber plates and corner weighting the car.

 

Unfortunately, no one makes camber plates for the tC yet. The only thing sold is camber bolts, which allow for a maximum change of -1.75 degrees. This is better than nothing of course, but I figure I would be better off with more for track settings. Would the be accurate?

 

I found out that my SAE team has scales to corner weight the car with. Once I get the weights, I need to adjust the height of the suspension until the diagonals get closer to the same correct? What else needs to be done in this regard? Sorry, I've never corner weighted a car before.

 

 

--Phillip

 

You are on the right path my brother! You and your SAE team are correct with the positive camber gain when cornering, your tires probably squel pretty good don't they? Yes, you should get camber plates, Subarus love them!!! I would shoot for no more than 2.5 deg camber on street tires. try to set your front and rear tires as close to Zero Toe as possible with maybe -1/16" out in front.

 

Article from Grassroots about corner weighting your ride

http://www.grmotorsports.com/news/012005/understanding-corner-weights.php

 

That link will give you the basics and beyond of what you should be doing when cornerweighting.

 

I'm trying to decide what I want to shoot for as well with my FWD track car. Since I and still in the younger HPDE groups I will have an instructor riding in my car with me just like you. I think I am going to shoot for the following

1.) 60/40 two people sitting in the car 200lbs each a lil more weight to the rear is okay.

2.)cornered - LF+RR = RF+LR as close as possible with two people in the car

3.)dry weight, Passenger side a little bit heavier than the drivers side b/c when I go to AutoX, I don't want the car to be overly weighted on the driver's side.

**This will create an imballance with more weight over the Left front most likely creating a revers wedge and bad cornering to the LEFT and lack luster corner exit.

 

I'm shooting for

2.5def front

b/t 1/16" toe out to 0 toe front

2 deg rear

0 toe front

factory caster front and rear

 

That setup should work good for both Auto X and HPDE with either or Street tires or R comps. Once I get faster at HPDE, more camber will be needed.

 

UHSAE: I know you looked at Tire temp, pressures and setup thread that I started. Keep those things in mind. Tire wear and Tire Temps will tell you if you need more or less camber or more or less pressure.

Edited by Guest

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berny2435

In this post I am going to try and explain corner weighting and setting up a FWD car.

 

The below are educated guess, theoretical values. If they screw with your mind and you end up waisting hours shooting for these numbers, do not blame me, blame your skills in trusting the internet.. .

 

I suggest reading the following link first, then reading my information.

http://www.grmotorsports.com/news/012005/understanding-corner-weights.php

 

1st off, if that link does not work for you above, there is some back ground info you need to know. %50 is an ideal crossweight for any car to have for road racing, Auto X or general driving. This means that when cornering, the car ((should)) behave the same when turing right or left. Crossweight is calculated by following this formula

{LR(Left Rear) + RF (Right Front)} and divide by the total weight of the car. Over 50% is called a wedge. under is called reverse wedge.

 

**WEDGE means the car will likely understeer more in a left turn. Handeling will be worse to Right but not necessarilly an understeer condition. Personally I would rather be a wedge.. .

**REVERSE WEDGE reverse what is said about the definition of WEDGE

 

Sometimes I have no life, but here would be an ideal situation for my car for HPDE and AUTO X with only one person in the car, at least theoretically speaking. I need to figure this out before I get on the scales this year so here we go people!!!

 

95 Honda Civic Road Race Auto X setup

 

2300lb weight with full tank gas, no persons

2500lb weight with full tank + one person

 

2300lb car dry

%61 fr- - - - 700>>700

%39 r.- - - - 450>>450

side to side %50 %50

50% cross weight

** if the car ends up weighing like this life will be easy. This true dry weight requires the shocks to be loose(top nuts), sway bars and strut bars to be loose or off and as minimal suspension bind as possible.

 

2300lb dry adjusted - IDEAL AND PERFECT WORLD > At my desired ride height, this is what I would shoot for by moving weight around in car if possible. If weight can not be moved, which in most cases can't, these numbers are reached by adjusting ride height at corners.

%61 - - - - - 680>>720

%39 - - - - - 430>>470

side to side 48% > 52%

still 50% cross weight

 

Add 200lb man and theoretically without any experience corner weighting a real street car, only experience with a formula SAE car.

Theoretical distribution of human weight over axles is 50/50 in my car

70% or 140lbs left - - 60lbs right

add 50% or 70#LF 30 RF

add 50% or 70#LR 30 RR

 

Theoretically Car adds up to these #s when concidering the Adjusted IDEAL dry weight without driver.

 

750>>750

500>>500

%50/50 side to side

60fr/40rear

%50 cross weight

 

Perfect ballance if shooting for a 2500lb race weight FWD car with a 60% front and 40% rear weight distribution and running ONE person only.

 

I will figure out ideal weight for running 2 persons soon.

 

**If you are 200lbs with gear, You can use my numbers by finding a conversion factor by taking 2300 / (your cars weight pluss fuel) = X.XX

 

**Multiply X.XX times any of my GROUPED numbers to find what your FWD should shoot for on the scales in the last two departments

2.)adjusted corner weights

3.)car pluss one person

 

I hope this is clear to people. If not, I'll try to answer any questions you have.

 

Mainly, just read the GRM article and apply to your situation. I don't know what my corner weights are yet, but I do know the dry weight and what weights I want to shoot for.

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Jan in Omaha

It still sounds to me that you are over driving the car.

 

Work on being as smooth with the steering inputs as you can. Think "Slow hands" and "Bend the car" Yes, your tires are not great. But you have to learn to drive around them. The tires should lightly "sing" in the corners. If they are "squalling" then you are over working them. You are either putting in too much steering input or too much speed for your tires to handle. You may have to reduce your corner entry speed so you can have a better exit speed. If you can upgrade to a set of track wheels/tires then go for it. If not... use what you have and have fun.

 

Camber IS your friend... but you may not need camber plates. See if there is a factory "crash bolt kit" (basically a smaller bolt that attaches your steering knuckle to the strut... it allows for some camber to be gained there)

 

Brakes. Upgrade the front to a race pad (I like Hawk Blue or HT10) and a separate set of rotors for them (factory rotors are fine) ATE Super Blue or Typ 200 works great. Valvoline Synpower DOT4 is an inexpensive alternative. I use these products in my TTF Civic and ITA Neon.

 

Have another instructor ride with you. You may have found the limits of your last instructor instead of the limits of your car.

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UHSAE

Scion tcx. The front camber kits that dezod has are all just bolts. Even the progress. I shot them an email, and to their knowledge that's all that's out right now.

 

Jan, you're probably right. My last instructor really didn't have much to say in regards to being smooth. In fact, he really didn't have much to say at all unless I asked him a specific question. I don't know how common that is in NASA, but if NASA instructors are better, I'm attending NASA events from now on. One interesting thing that I did notice was that he had me turning in earlier than the RWD cars, and just using the slip angle to hit the apex. IE, the front of the car was pointed inside the apex, but the car basically slid around it. That may very well have been over driving the tires and carrying to much speed into the corner.

 

Berny, thanks a lot. I'll look into it soon.

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UHSAE

Also,

KARTING: I ran a quick search and it's gotten mixed reviews. I'm a member of an indoor karting place here called drIv motoring. It's a World Karts facility. As a rookie driver, will I just be developing bad habits, or will this help teach me car control and momentum control? Does anyone have thoughts on this?

 

--Phillip

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2wheelsmoker

I just saw this thread and I'd like to share with you that I believe there's so much more speed you can gain from your car through correct driving. I know a car in stock form feels like its limits are low and you're maxing it out but as someone put earlier, you can always go faster through correct driving techniques. If you want to spend money to change any single thing about your car, I'd say tires. Those are really fun.

 

I drive a FWD Honda myself and let me tell you that lower hp FWDs are a blast and are not that much slower than other comparably setup cars out there in HPDE's. I run in HPDE 3 in a completely street legal car (complete interior, passes smog, no roll bar) and it's not that hard to give the faster, higher hp guys a run for their money at any given track.

 

So I'm not offering any advice other than for you to go out there to focus on building your skill and to have some fun. You have a very nice car that is capable of impressing many, including yourself. In HPDEs you're not trying to beat anyone. Incremental improvements add up and within a few more track days you'll notice you've made significant advances. You should be proud of your achievements and be more critical about your driving than focusing too much on the car. It just has to be reliable and running and the rest is up to you to make it go fast.

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ExRacer

2WheelSmoker, you have the makings of a really good instructor. Those are VERY valuable nuggets of advice. So many times we get someone who makes the excuse, "Oh I went off because of my sway bar, tire pressure, time of the solar flares . . etc. (insert excuse here). The really fast and improving students take each little increment of fast and put them together for a wonderful smooth progression from overdriving clunky stab and thrust to smooth and tidy-quick.

 

Rarely do the really fast people have to rely on mechanical improvements to go fst. Yeah it helps, but it's the driver that makes the difference. For a terrific example of how Schumacher uses smooth and amazing examples of control at the limit go to

 

 

 

Keep it up an you'll be being asked to help us deliver this stuff!

 

Great advice.

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sscguy

UHSAE: Karting, in my experience, has been very beneficial. However, it requires you to have someone faster than you as sort of a role model. Driving your car will be very different from a kart, but there are lots of things about car control you can garner from karting. You need that faster person to constantly keep you improving your line, turn-in and braking points, etc. If you're the fastest guy out there in a pack of noobs, you won't be learning much necessarily, and THEN may be developing some bad habits. So yeah, go out there, be observant, and talk to people.

 

<--- Now wishing he was karting...*sigh*

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VKZ24

With 3 HPDE's I highly doubt you've achieved the limits of the car. I doubt hardly anyone here with tons of experience will claim they are driving at the limit of their respective cars.

 

Everything I've read in this thread is pretty much spot on with my experience in a FWD car. One thing I'll add about street tires is while a little "singing" is good, a full "song" is bad. Think of it as your LF tire (in a RH turn) as saying "please GOD I can't take this much load and still hang on". As the car understeers and the tire is in full song, you are slowing down the entire time.

 

Less steering input, more negative camber, and being smooth will help you tremendously. How do you get all that? Practice, practice, practice!

 

One other thing that could be applicable is your ride height. A car can be *too* low. The futher apart the car's C-G and roll center are the more understeer you'll have.

 

The easiest way to tell if you're too low is to look at the lower control arm while it's at rest. If it's parallel to the ground that's as low as you should go. If the outer end (ball joint) is higher than the inner end then you're too low.

 

I have some first hand experience as I drive an understeering FWD car myself...Chevy Cavalier Z-24. It took me three years of practice (that's about 15 HPDEs) to get the needed oversteer. Also the addition of a huge rear bar, stiff rear shocks, and trail-braking helped as well. I can make it dance now. Oh yeah, and my car is damn heavy at 3150 with the driver.

 

If you decided to mod your car, take it slow! DO NOT make several changes at once. Add this, try it, learn it, learn some more, learn even more, etc. After that, make another change, rinse, repeat.

 

Ask anyone here. The fastest thing in a car is the spacer. Right guys/gals?

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rwh11385

Don't believe your instructors - believing that you are at the limits of your car underappreciates the skill of high performance driving. I will say that your tires are not great and better ones may allow you to feel the car out better at limit - particularly ones with stiffer sidewalls. But you may be overdriving the tires very likely as well, work on being smoother and you might gain a bit more speed in the corners.

 

After the stumblings of most people's first event, it may seem the next couple you have achieved limit... but go to another, and another, and you'll see that you were never really at limit and there was more to be had.

 

In my 5th event the instructor didn't really have much to add...

but went to my 6th and had a really knowledgeable and helpful instructor who had some very insightful things to add besides "good line", like brake later and apex a lil earlier on certain corners.

 

From being fine and nothing for the instructor to say, to hearing more advice from an active instructor... was 3 seconds off my lap time, just a week later in the exact same setup.

 

If you have an instructor who doesn't add that much, ask for another one. Don't just go solo because they write you off, search for a new one. I got free, but found a Spec Miata racer who pushed me hard and showed me whole new entire limits I was too pussy to find earlier but he knew the car had more. (3rd event) There's going to probably be several plateaus you reach as a driver, and each new one recieves a personal "whoa"

 

Get some Azenis or Hankook RS-2s, get good aftermarket pads like Hawk HP+'s, and push your limits as a driver under proper instruction.

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ExRacer

Okey dokey, Vincent. You're lucky I ever let you out of the beginner group buddy! Just kidding V, you're an awesome driver and it's sooo cool to see the level of reinforcement that is coming through this thread.

 

Smooth=fast, eggs on the controls, look through the turns, focus, focus, focus, and get ZEN smoooooth. Linkage is your friend!

 

Heh, heh, Now you know who I am, BIG V, don't you . . .

 

ExRacer out

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VKZ24
Heh, heh, Now you know who I am, BIG V, don't you . . .

 

Not a clue!

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ExRacer

Vincent, . . .if your car is purple my name starts with M, runs with furry animals, please keep this our dirty little secret.

 

When did you get those cool wheels (you've actually had them for a while, and I keep forgetting), wasn't it cold that night at Streets of Willow with that selection of meats by the fire? You had to get "kicked out" of our beginner group and you are now harrasing the fast intermediates. Your engineering backgound seves you well in describing technical situations. If this is the wrong Vincent, my apologies . . .

 

Seriously if this is the same Vincent that runs with STUSA, it took you a while to get the gumption to start pressing the loud pedal, but what he shows the rest of HPDE followers is that application of all the principals discussed in the thread will allow very quick track work if you concentrate on your driving and don't get all hung-up on making the car go fast with add-ons and tech excuses and bandaids. Especially the HPDE1/2 student. We instructors actually do know what we are talking about and although a few sneak in that may need to be refreshed about how to properly teach this awesome sport, the vast majority are very dedicated racers and fast-track TT-style people that do know how to get the most out of your car.

 

It is rare that a conflict occurs, but people please remember we love this sport and sincerely want to have you improve. We are also risking our bottom sides and necks out there to help you, so if the match isn 't there, go back to the well and get another setup. This is a very artful teaching technique when practiced at its best and we've seen people start to gain the discerning ability to take what works from one instructor and discard what doesn't from another. When the right match is found most stay together as mentors and pursue this all the way to TT and in some cases, a comp license!

 

See ya at CS!

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VKZ24
Vincent, . . .if your car is purple my name starts with M, runs with furry animals, please keep this our dirty little secret.!

 

Definitely not the same Vincent. My Z-24 is white with a bright orange stripe and I run mainly at VIR and Rockingham.

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ExRacer

Hey Vincent, sorry for any confusion on my part. The driver I spoke about doesn't run with NASA much and I thought he was lurking here. I'm sure your path to the advanced classes was smoother than his.

 

I retract all comments about how this fine instructor got to know how to go fast. Mistaken identitiy on my part. Hey Vincent, some day if you can make it out to California, the dinner's on me! Oh yeah and the instruction at a SoCal event is free on me as well! I would like to get to know your East Coast tracks better and only got to run Mid-Ohio for the Nats. Perhaps we'll meet there. . .

 

Another good egg in the NASA pool, people.

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UHSAE

I want to thank everyone that has responded to this thread. This is an excellent community.

 

I have another question though. I'm headed to a DE at the end of March. I have an issue with my tires though. I have Fuzions, yes they suck, but they were dirt cheap. The front tires have completely bald shoulders. Obviously it's a bad idea to run them again (camber additions or not), but what about taking the fronts and swapping them with the rears. the rear tires a decent amount of tread left on them.

 

If this is a bad idea, can I buy 2 new (and preferably different) tires and stick them up front and leave the ok Fuzions in the back? I have 16x6.5 wheels. My Fuzions right now are 225/50-16. Not the best, but I'm just learning.

 

Thoughts?

 

Once again, I really appreciate all of the responses to this thread.

 

Phillip

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VKZ24
I want to thank everyone that has responded to this thread. This is an excellent community.

 

I have another question though. I'm headed to a DE at the end of March. I have an issue with my tires though. I have Fuzions, yes they suck, but they were dirt cheap. The front tires have completely bald shoulders. Obviously it's a bad idea to run them again (camber additions or not), but what about taking the fronts and swapping them with the rears. the rear tires a decent amount of tread left on them.

 

If this is a bad idea, can I buy 2 new (and preferably different) tires and stick them up front and leave the ok Fuzions in the back? I have 16x6.5 wheels. My Fuzions right now are 225/50-16. Not the best, but I'm just learning.

 

Thoughts?

 

Once again, I really appreciate all of the responses to this thread.

 

Phillip

 

Are these your everyday tires? The reason I ask is a lot of people with camber challenged FWD cars get the tires flipped to prolong their wear. I've done this many times myself.

 

Yes, you can buy two new tires for the front, but you'll end up trashing the shoulders of them as well.

 

I'd consider finding a set of used Azenis and running them. They about the best and cheapest street/track combo tire running.

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UHSAE

These are track only wheels and tires. Can I get them flipped? That would be ideal I suppose.

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VKZ24
These are track only wheels and tires. Can I get them flipped? That would be ideal I suppose.

 

Absolutely! Lots of people flip theirs including myself. Do it.

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