Trakmnky Posted March 9, 2007 Share Posted March 9, 2007 I've searched all over and can't seem to find anyone discussing this before. According to the rules as I read them you either have to have stock belts or comply with the ccr which states 5,6 or 7 point harness. If I can't use my schroth's I won't be happy. They aren't the quick fit type but are a 3" racing set from Schroth. Even though they are 4 point they have anti-sub feature built in. If it matters I'll be running in TTA with an 05 Evo, it also has a roll bar which I installed as I wanted to run the harnesses. This setup has to be safer than no roll bar with stock belts. Thanks to anyone who can clarify this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shawn M. Posted March 9, 2007 Members Share Posted March 9, 2007 if they are DOT approved, you can use them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trakmnky Posted March 9, 2007 Author Share Posted March 9, 2007 Yes they're DOT approved so I should be ok then. Thanks for the reply! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rrrracer Posted March 10, 2007 Share Posted March 10, 2007 The rule states that aftermarket DOT belts MAY be allowed... they'll have to pass your local tech inspection, FYI. Get your annual done before the first event... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr PS Posted March 10, 2007 Share Posted March 10, 2007 I am with rrrracer on this one. When I had a 4pt Schroth, I was denied once and passed once at the tech station. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trakmnky Posted March 11, 2007 Author Share Posted March 11, 2007 Didn't know I could do the anual ahead of time. This is my fist season in TT, always been HPDE4 before. Thanks for the advice! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RACER-X Posted March 14, 2007 Share Posted March 14, 2007 I was looking to get the same set of harness and was told that they are not allowed. Must conform to the CCR. Stock 3 pt or 5pt or better. I think what they mean by DOT allowed is that if you replace the existing 3pt OEM belts with non OEM (aftermarket), the replacement 3pt belts must be DOT approved. I'm from the midwest region, shouldn't these rules be the same for all? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted March 14, 2007 National Staff Share Posted March 14, 2007 (edited) I was looking to get the same set of harness and was told that they are not allowed. Must conform to the CCR. Stock 3 pt or 5pt or better. I think what they mean by DOT allowed is that if you replace the existing 3pt OEM belts with non OEM (aftermarket), the replacement 3pt belts must be DOT approved. I'm from the midwest region, shouldn't these rules be the same for all? The CCR means what it says. The Schroth 4 pt. belts that are DOT approved (or any other brand that has 4 pt. belts that are DOT approved) are legal to use in TT and HPDE, as long as they are installed according to the manufacturers instructions, and as long as the harnesses are DOT approved for use on that particular vehicle (some, if not all of these belts have a list of models that they are DOT approved for on the box/instructions). Edited March 14, 2007 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rrrracer Posted March 14, 2007 Share Posted March 14, 2007 Could someone post a pic or refer a link so that I can see the harnesses in question? Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FocusTed Posted March 14, 2007 Share Posted March 14, 2007 I think these are the only cars that have DOT belts from Schroth. BMW E36 E46 E39 Mini Cooper CooperS Subaru WRX STi AUDI/VW http://www.schrothracing.com/products/streetlegal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rrrracer Posted March 14, 2007 Share Posted March 14, 2007 (edited) Found it. The harnesses in question utilise Schroth's anti-submarining technology. I searched their website and read the instructions, and viewed their crash test video. FWIW, to the best of my knowledge, Schroth is the only harness manufacturer utilising this technology. I must say it is fairly impressive, the system appears to work very well. As such, I don't have a problem with them being used on the track. However... As Greg mentioned, there is an approved vehicle application list that is included with the harnesses (I was not able to locate this list on their website). If your vehicle is on the list, you are OK to compete in TT with them. To CYA, I would recommend bringing any documentation you have (including a copy of this thread) to the track with you to substantiate the legality of the belts. The burden will be on you to prove they are legal for your car. For example, since I don't have the approved list of applications, if you were to show up at tech and not have proper supporting documentation, you'd likely get tossed. However, if someone were to provide me with a current list, I would be glad to file it so I could have it on hand at the track in case an instance such as this would arise. If your car is NOT on the list, then I would say the decision would be up to the Chief of Tech to handle on a case-by-case basis, with the installation being scrutinized heavily. And, as always, ultimately you are responsible for the safety of your vehicle, for yourself and as it pertains to others on the track. Thanks, hope this clears up any confusion! Good thread... Edited March 14, 2007 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RACER-X Posted March 14, 2007 Share Posted March 14, 2007 http://www.schrothracing.com/products/streetlegal/1575 There is a link to a vid at the bottom of this page. Very interesting. http://www.schrothracing.com/products/competition/1940 Here is some of the list on their website. http://www.schrothracing.com/products/streetlegal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trakmnky Posted March 15, 2007 Author Share Posted March 15, 2007 I bougth these from HMS Motorsports and they assured me that they were DOT approved. They are probably the Profi II's without the sub strap. They have the built in anti-sub feature as well as a different latch that has an orange push button that they told me was necessary to make the belt DOT approved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trakmnky Posted March 15, 2007 Author Share Posted March 15, 2007 Thanks for all the feedback. After looking at the link it is the belt they sold me (Profi III ASM FE). I'll contact them tomorrow to get proof and a current car list. Anyone want me to send it to them? Thanks, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RACER-X Posted March 15, 2007 Share Posted March 15, 2007 http://nasa-tt.com/Rules Important Note: For in depth rules for HPDE participation please download the Club Codes and Regulations (CCRs) to get specifications on racing harnesses, seats, roll bar, and other safety related items. As a general rule, an "unmodified" factory vehicle will pass tech without any problems, but cars that have been modified (seats, roll bars, belts, etc) must conform to the preparation rules listed in the rulebook. http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/Time-Trial-Rules.pdf NO-POINTS MODIFICATIONS: 35) Seat harnesses (must be compliant with NASA CCR section 11.4.8 ) http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/ccr.pdf 11.0 HPDE TECHNICAL REQUIREMENTS 11.3 Required Safety Equipment - Driver 2. The driver and any passenger must utilize modern style* stock seatbelts in very good condition, or a DOT approved restraint system, while operating a vehicle on the track. Restraint system requirements are listed in Section #11.4.8. *Lap belts used without any shoulder restraints are not permitted. Everthing points to this rule. Notice the * in this sentence. Then its explaination below. This would be for HPDE and TT only. 11.4.8 Seatbelts and Harnesses The seatbelts should be in good condition. No damage may be present on the seatbelts and they must be the factory configuration. Any harness or any restraint system, other than factory stock, shall conform to CCR section #15.5, in all respects* except for the expiration regulations. Harnesses that are expired for racing may be used providing that they are in at least very good condition. The use of a lap belt without any shoulder restraint is not permitted. Passenger seatbelts must meet the same minimum requirements per the CCR as the driver seatbelts if being used by a passenger. Notepassenger equipment need not match the installed equipment on the driver’s side. *Aftermarket DOT-certified belt sets, installed to the manufacture’s specifications may be allowed. Proof of DOT certification and proper installation is the driver’s responsibility. COMPETITION SECTION 15.5 Driver restraint system (See diagram at end of section) 1. All vehicles must have a five (5), six (6), or seven (7) point seat belt system. Arm restraints are required in open cars and cars with: Open T-tops, Open Targa tops, missing moon/sun roofs, or glass moon/sun roofs. 2. A five (5) point system consists of a three (3) inch lap belt, two (2) or three (3) inch shoulder belts, and a two (2) inch anti-submarine strap. 8. Only separate shoulder straps are permitted. “H†Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VKZ24 Posted March 15, 2007 Share Posted March 15, 2007 One thing I'm curious about with the Schroth design is the anchoring of the shoulder harnesses. The angle seems too steep to avoid spinal compression. Take a look at the installation diagram from G-Force. Page 2, Figure C. The end attachments of the shoulder harness must also be installed at appropriate angles. The ideal position is anywhere between 5° below and 30° above the driver’s shoulder, as seen in part C of Figure 2.If the upper attachment point falls significantly below the driver's shoulder, then a spinal compression injury is likely to occur. In an accident situation, the shoulder belts pull down and back on the torso as they resist the forward motion of the driver. The resultant restraint force compresses the spinal column and will add to the stresses in the spine already caused by the force of the crash impact. Just to be clear I'm not debating the author's question of the Schroth harnesses for TT. I'm just providing some info that I feel is relevant since safety is the goal. As a side note, I wonder if the Schroth design was tested in a roll-over situation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr PS Posted March 15, 2007 Share Posted March 15, 2007 As a side note, I wonder if the Schroth design was tested in a roll-over situation? Yeah...there's a lot of debate about the Schroth design. Guilty as charged, I used to have one installed a long time back. A friend of mine was involved in a roll over and he and his passenger were both strapped in a 4-pt Schroth. Both walked away unharmed. My take however is either go 5~6pt or just stick with OE belt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spdracer22 Posted March 15, 2007 Share Posted March 15, 2007 I have the 3-pt Schroth belts in my Civic right now (great for auto-x), but I don't think they're *supposed* to be installed in a Civic. Does this mean I have to completely remove them for HPDE, or just not use them? I have both the OEM and Schroth belts installed right now... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted March 15, 2007 National Staff Share Posted March 15, 2007 I have the 3-pt Schroth belts in my Civic right now (great for auto-x), but I don't think they're *supposed* to be installed in a Civic. Does this mean I have to completely remove them for HPDE, or just not use them? I have both the OEM and Schroth belts installed right now... I would require you to remove at least one component so that there is no question that they are not being used on track. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spdracer22 Posted March 15, 2007 Share Posted March 15, 2007 I have the 3-pt Schroth belts in my Civic right now (great for auto-x), but I don't think they're *supposed* to be installed in a Civic. Does this mean I have to completely remove them for HPDE, or just not use them? I have both the OEM and Schroth belts installed right now... I would require you to remove at least one component so that there is no question that they are not being used on track. Thanks...I'll just remove the tail straps...not that big of a deal... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted March 15, 2007 National Staff Share Posted March 15, 2007 FYI for those using OEM belts. The CG Lock device is legal in HPDE and TT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FocusTed Posted March 15, 2007 Share Posted March 15, 2007 FYI for those using OEM belts. The CG Lock device is legal in HPDE and TT. And they work pretty good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted March 15, 2007 Share Posted March 15, 2007 Greg, if both sets of belts are legal would you still want one set removed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted March 16, 2007 National Staff Share Posted March 16, 2007 Greg, if both sets of belts are legal would you still want one set removed? No. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warrtalon Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 FYI for those using OEM belts. The CG Lock device is legal in HPDE and TT. Made full use of mine this weekend in my first TT competition! Worked like a charm - never had to put my elbow on the door to brace myself despite going 6 seconds faster than last year's setup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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