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cosm3os

Can HPDE 1 and 2 guys run R compounds?

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cosm3os

I know some groups (wisely) prohibit newbs from running R compounds. How about NASA?

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BrianZ

sure you can.

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rrrracer

Yes, they can.

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kbrew8991

highly discouraged, but not banned

 

you will have trouble talking an instructor into riding in that car, esp in DE1

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berny2435

I get mixed opinions on this as a track noob asking questions. 5 HPDE days under my belt. Sorry for the long post here, but I've beat my head on this decision.. .

 

I've had a few highly skilled drivers say go for it, you should learn on the spec tire you will be racing on. One guy, a guy paid by the BMW club to hold classroom instruction, told me quote - "You should run them if you have the money. The R comps have greater slip angles and will actually be safer to drive on, not more dangerous. " End quote

 

-Some people say, no, no way b/c you can't learn from the tires if they are making sounds.

-Some say no b/c once you reach their limit, they break away too quick for a novice driver to catch.. .

-Some say No, learn on Street Tires b/c R comps cover up to many mistakes. HRMMM. Does this mean you will be spinning out more with Streets? Isn't that unsafe?

 

I'm going to bring streets and R comps to my next event. Tell the instructor a little about me and the car, tell him I would like to run my R comps during the afternoon sessions and if he says no, I guess I will just run streets and be a little upset. If he says yes, I think it will be a good thing.

 

Tires are like shoes, you don't wear wingtips to work out in.

 

I have FWD traction traction problems with 205/45/16 Hankook RS2 tires, the RT615 competition. A LSD would help and I could run 215/45/16 Falkens but I don't even think those will help much. The only stickier route I can go within a reasonable price range is 205/50/15 RA1 or Nitto Nt01s.

 

Needless to say, I'm going Nto1s in 205/50/15 and when my Hankooks wear out, I will drive RT615s to the track.

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VKZ24

-Some people say, no, no way b/c you can't learn from the tires if they aren't making sounds.

-Some say no b/c once you reach their limit, they break away too quick for a novice driver to catch.. .

-Some say No, learn on Street Tires b/c R comps cover up to many mistakes. HRMMM. Does this mean you will be spinning out more with Streets? Isn't that unsafe?

 

As a general rule, all three of those reasons are correct in my opinion. However, different people learn at different rates, and in different ways. If I were in the RH seat, I'd prefer the student show me what he can do on the streets before swicthing to R-comps.

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berny2435

 

As a general rule, all three of those reasons are correct in my opinion. However, different people learn at different rates, and in different ways. If I were in the RH seat, I'd prefer the student show me what he can do on the streets before swicthing to R-comps.

 

And this is why I will bring good track worthy street tires and my R compounds when I go to the track for my 6th track day.

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beerkat

For the most part I run Z rated street tires when on track. I feel that it is the best way for me to learn what the car and I can do. I have run a DOT approved R compound tire on a car that I was use to, Avon Tech R on a '03 Must/Cobra. The R compound stick much better so I had more confidence in my corning, I still spun the car. I am now driving a '01 ZO6 and I will run on street tires for a full season or more before I put R compounds on it. Just my $.02

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HankookMMM

When I first started HPDE I used my Kumhos from autocross. I felt that I picked up a lot of bad habits awful fast and had to go back to a Falken street tires to get rid of these. (and get a lot more instruction) Race tires give you a sense of security and make you and the car "feel" better than you should be at the beginner level. It is a real confidence booster. The problem I see with using race compound at the beginner level is that when they break loose, there is very little warning. A street tire will howl and protest and keep you "honest" and let you know when you they are breaking loose. If you can bring two sets of tires to the track and talk to your instructor and he/she feels you can benefit from R-Compounds, go for it. At the very least use a good high performance street tire. The saying that you don't wear wingtips to workout is a good one, but don't think you can strap on rock climbing shoes and climb Mount Everest. Take your time, learn as you go and filter advice carefully.

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99HOSS

cosm3os - as an instructor, I would advise you to save your money, buy a hi-perfomance street tire, get some seat time under you, then start moddin' the car to improve brakes an suspension, then tires. All the while getting the best mod you can make to any car, seat time.

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sscguy

I'm gonna agree with Mike here. I've instructed several students with high-powered Hondas running Azenis, and they manage just fine. You're in control of your right foot, so if the tires "aren't enough for you" then stop pushing down the accelerator so hard. You'll need to learn throttle modulation one way or the other, now is the best time to do it.

 

I agree that for cars like these, tires will be a limiting factor. However, until you can consistently drive at that limit, you have no business rocking R-comps.

 

I think you're on the West Coast, so you won't get to see this, but a few years ago there was a guy by the name of Mark Sayer out here. He ran Azenis, and whooped up on pretty much every friggin car out there. It was absolutely astonishing what those tires were capable of. If he can drive that fast on them, you sure can too.

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ninetyfourintegra

I have to agree here. At first I thought "well my first NASA HPDE I used RA1s, why shouldn't someone else?"

 

Then I stopped and used my head and remembered that I had been running tracks days for about 3yrs or so prior to joining NASA, each and every event was on Azenis. I wouldn't have changed a thing about running all that time on a 'street tire'.

 

Actually full-tread RA1s had me driving slower than Azenis. Once worn down though...

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Sterling Doc
I know some groups (wisely) prohibit newbs from running R compounds. How about NASA?

 

Kyle, your far from a noob - are you bringing someone else to the track?

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swdouglass

HPDE 1 & 2 is for getting used to your car on the track. For that keep as many things constant as possible and learn to feel, smell and hear the car and what it is doing in different circumstances.

 

By HPDE 3 and 4, hopefully you are really comfortable with the car and learning how to get around the track faster and smoother, now is the time to bring in more variables such as tires, brakes and suspension.

 

If you are in HPDE1 or 2 and feel you should be in 3 or 4 talk to the lead instructors.

 

But have fun,

Sean

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Armitage

After 8 track weekends I still feel like I have a lot more to learn about getting the most out of my street tires before I feel the need to move up to a stickier compound. However, it seems like 90% of everyone else in my run group (2 or 3) has already upgraded to R-comps or Azenis type tires. Consequently, they are able to brake harder, corner faster and accelerate earlier out of the turns than I am.

 

It's a little frustrating to be spending the majority of every one of my laps pointing people by and lifting off instead of concentrating on driving. This "escalation of power" seems unnecessary to me in a driver education setting. I'd rather spend my money on more events than low treadwear-rated tires and more brake pads that will be required with more grip and higher entry speeds. Just my $.02

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mcolangelo2005

Yet another data point on the Falken Azenis RT-615s. I ran them on my Miata last year and have them on my Civic Si this year. They did very well on both cars but tend to get "greasy" towards the end of each session. I consider it to be a good compromise street/track tire.

 

Recently, I ran Hoosier R-comps on my Mustang and it totally transformed the car from an oversteering wild hog into a Mustang that actually handles quite nicely. I was shocked at the increase in grip in comparison to the "street performance" Sumitomos that I run on the street with that car.

 

So, from here on out, it's R-comps for me!

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cobra8u

I ran F-1's that were stock on my 03 Cobra to first two SVTOA on track events and instructors there were all for competition tires and Hawk HP plus pads, so by my 3 rd ontrack I was running Toyo RA-1's and HT-10 race pads (WOW they will throw you through front windshield). This past weekend was first NASA HPDE for me and I ran in HPDE2 with same Toyo's and HP plus (changed because less downtime changing over to street and vice-versa) at Putnam Park which I have run at twice previously. This was my 6th HPDE overall and I see no reason to go back as I become more one with my car, I have been to the limit on these tires, heard the whine and stayed in the gas and kept it from spinning, I feel very comfortable with these tires and my ability to negotiate with rookie drivers after this weekend. I would like to say that the NASA HPDE program is very good I enjoyed it immensely because although I was quite frustrated first day with being out there with HPDE1 and having the passing problems that were there first 3 sessions the downloads allowed us to talk about it and by Sunday things were running smoothly.

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cosm3os

Hey Cobra, you ran with my dad at Putnam. We ended up puting him in my wife's red GTI MkV. Were you the cobra (AC or replica?) with the hardtop? If so, the car's too quiet!

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cosm3os
I know some groups (wisely) prohibit newbs from running R compounds. How about NASA?

 

Kyle, your far from a noob - are you bringing someone else to the track?

 

See above post. Took dad out in the GTI. He had a great time. He just bought a 02 Boxster S, but we didn't have time to get a bar on it. I'm sure he'll come out again.

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944-Spec#94

I you want to learn to drive or are out for fun stay on street tires.

 

 

If your goal is to be the fastest car in the group get R-comps. In fact sell what ever you have and get a really high hp car, put on R-comps (hoosiers) and just drive by everyone on the straights. Just don't be suprised when a guy in 1.6L Honda is riding your *ss in the corners. You'll get him on the next straight anyway.

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cosm3os

Wasns't a fast issue. We had three drivers and two cars. One is a street car (the GTI) and the other is all track (M3). My wife and dad were both gonna be in HPDE 1/2 so couldn't share the GTI so the inquiry had to do with allowing one to drive the M3. Wife dropped out, problem solved. But it's always a good discussion for the noobs.

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BlackStripes

Maybe i have another point of view. I am in HPDE 3 and i think that i am the only one running street tires (Azenis) . Honestly it doesn't bother me at all when i see a car turning faster than me because the tires, i am here to learn, and i drive a heavy ass Mustang anyway and also i understand physics. A lot of times when i see a 500lbs lighter car with R-compounds and less HP, i don't pass it on the straights to see how well/bad i do on the turns...if he/she puts just one or two cars on me, i will pass during the next straight. If he/she puts 5+ cars on me, i will TRY to stay behind to follow and learn his/her line. If i see a car with more HP, lighter and with R-compounds, i usually get out of his way

 

I normally have a video to check afterwards, and see if i improved or not. I know its not precise, but better than nothing.

 

I will run street tires all this year and go R-compounds next year before doing time-trials: when going FAST REALLY matters.

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brgm100

What if the Dot R's are OE manfacturer optional equipment Yoko A048's (Elise) or standard (all Exiges)?

 

It is also my understanding that when the A048's are close to being completely heat cycled, they begin to behave more like regular street tires (less grippy,more communicative).

 

Many people that I've talked to feel that the difference is far greater between shaved RA'1 and A048, than A048's and Ad07's (Yoko's 'street' tire for the Elise).

 

FYI I've done 8 track events on the Ad07's and 2 on the A048's.

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cosm3os

Yeah, the A048 is closer to a street tire than a RA-1, PSC, etc.

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TorqueAholic

My experience so far :

 

-Used-up one set of Azenis

-Half way through a set of Hankook Z211 (Excellent deal 50% off on close-out from Frisby tires)

 

The good

 

Has Proven:

 

1) To dis-credit a common mis-conception that R compounds are "Harder" to contol. They are actually more forgiving and easy to control at the limit

 

2) To dis-credit another mis-conception that R compounds wear out super fast. My Azenis were absolutely toast after 5 weekends and the Hankooks are exactly 50% down (Mesured with a tread gauge) after 5 weekends.

 

So even if the Hankooks are rated 50 treadwear (Compared to 150 or 200 on the Azenis) they should last 8-10 weekends on my Mustang or about twice as long as the Azenis

 

Also, with better grip you get better braking and by being designed for track you have to seriously overdrive them to make them get greasy so they in fact provide an added safety margin in my book if you drive hard.

 

 

The Not so Good:

 

1) You have to get another set of wheels -> = Spend $$

2) You have to carry the track wheels to the track and have to mount / dismount

3) With added grip comes added wear on :

 

- Brake Pads also, you get more brake heat too so you probably want to step-up to racing pads as well on the heavier cars like a Mustang or the 4 wheel drive cars ->= Spend $$

 

- Suspension components like bushings ->= Spend $$

 

- Wheel bearings ->= Spend $$

 

4)You might find that the stock seats are awfull slipery with the added G's so new seats might in in order -> = Spend $$

 

5) Your stock suspension bushings / camber capabilities may not be up to the task and you'll end-up wearing the tires on the edge fairly quick (Showing the cords..) / might not get the full benefit of the tire capabilities -> = Spend $$ to get the car up to snuff

 

6) They are useless in the rain and are wicked slipery for the first few corners (I am not kidding, almost spun 2-3 times while going about 30..) as they pick up a ton of dirt while cruising the paddock and need to clean-up / get up to temp to work properly

 

 

Like everything else in life there are pluses and minuses to any option you will choose..

 

If you are a beginning HPDE 1 or 2 driver and you are not sure you are willing to spend the extra $$ and deal with the added hassle don't do it

 

I like them a lot because my car has a pretty decent setup for it and therefore they help a lot in the braking zones and the corners

 

For me it comes down to right tool for the right job.. Street tires on the street / Track tires on the track

 

It's always fun to out-brake and out-corner suposedly superior cars in a Mustang with a chasis based on a '78 Fairmont...

 

Check out my videos by Googling "Corner Carving 2000 GT Mustang" and see for yourselves.

Edited by Guest

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