Can HPDE 1 and 2 guys run R compounds?

[berny2435]

good experience STRINGER!

 

I put a second day worth of tracking on my Full tread RA1s. Lap times dropped AGAIN!

 

I'm obviously gaining experience when I hit the track but I also keep finding more in the car and myself. I've gone from 1:56 in streets, to 1:53 on R comps to now 1:49s on Rs.

 

I still have a lot of work to do on myself and the car's setup. It still pushes too much so a bigger rear swaybar is going to get added. Without adding an LSD, I think I can still grab a few more seconds. I don't even think I'm pushing these 225/45/15s hard enough yet.. .

 

We'll C how next weekend goes!

[RustyGuns]

When I first started HPDE I used my Kumhos from autocross. I felt that I picked up a lot of bad habits awful fast and had to go back to a Falken street tires to get rid of these. (and get a lot more instruction) Race tires give you a sense of security and make you and the car "feel" better than you should be at the beginner level. It is a real confidence booster. The problem I see with using race compound at the beginner level is that when they break loose, there is very little warning. A street tire will howl and protest and keep you "honest" and let you know when you they are breaking loose. If you can bring two sets of tires to the track and talk to your instructor and he/she feels you can benefit from R-Compounds, go for it. At the very least use a good high performance street tire. The saying that you don't wear wingtips to workout is a good one, but don't think you can strap on rock climbing shoes and climb Mount Everest. Take your time, learn as you go and filter advice carefully.

well.....yes and no. tires are like women they are all different!

 

i have cheap khumo street tires and they are like driving in ice and when you do spin out you are fricken gone! no way to recover

 

i put on khumo V710 slicks... amazingly different. and when i started to break loose into a spin could easily recover.

 

so i bring both, i do first run with my ice tires to learn the line. then i put on the v710's and man oh man is it so much more fun!!!!

 

so as far as saying slicks break lose and you can't recover..i beg to differ

my v710's are very forgiving compared to the street tires

 

but thats just me and all those tires out there are so fricken different it ain't funny!

 

i did bucket load of research before getting the V710's. Nitto Nt01 or Michelin sport cups would probably be better but availability is tougher!

 

hoosiers rock but i have read they are a bit finicky

 

2002 Z06 here, so same car as you!

[Scott G.]

If you read the Skip Barber book "Mastering the art of race driving" he says:

 

"Typically, a racing slick has a more gradual loss of grip past its peak than a street radial, making it more forgiving as you exceed the peak slip angle. Today's high-performance street radials are not all that peaky, but as a RULE they are worse than slicks"

 

Keep in mind that Skip Barber makes extensive use of telemetry to back-up what they say, in fact they pioneered using telemetry for racing schools.

 

It just plain make sense that a tire specifically designed to work at or past its adherence limits would handle those siuations better than a tire designed for Rain / Shine / Low noise / Good Life / Performance

 

 

You might want to check your sources

 

Yes, the Skip Barber book says exactly that (p198), but if you look at the accompanying graph of "Cornering Force", it doesn't necessarily tell a person that slicks are more forgiving then streets. The graph shows a broad flat plateau of traction for the street tire. And it's in that area that a newby learns to manage slip angle. In contrast the graph shows the slick experiencing a fairly abrupt loss of ~20% of it's traction at a slip angle of 6deg.

 

The graph is a generalization, and not an attempt to create Truth. My point is only that it would be hasty to point to this page and say "Skip Barber says slicks are better to learn on".

 

I hate it when one of my students has R Compounds. It's a symptom of folks pursuing speed when they should be focusing on precision, smoothness, and learning to hear what their car is whispering to them.

Edited October 15, 2007 by Guest

[RustyGuns]

If you read the Skip Barber book "Mastering the art of race driving" he says:

 

"Typically, a racing slick has a more gradual loss of grip past its peak than a street radial, making it more forgiving as you exceed the peak slip angle. Today's high-performance street radials are not all that peaky, but as a RULE they are worse than slicks"

 

Keep in mind that Skip Barber makes extensive use of telemetry to back-up what they say, in fact they pioneered using telemetry for racing schools.

 

It just plain make sense that a tire specifically designed to work at or past its adherence limits would handle those siuations better than a tire designed for Rain / Shine / Low noise / Good Life / Performance

 

 

You might want to check your sources

 

Yes, the Skip Barber book says exactly that (p198), but if you look at the accompanying graph of "Cornering Force", it doesn't necessarily tell a person that slicks are more forgiving then streets. The graph shows a broad flat plateau of traction for the street tire. And it's in that area that a newby learns to manage slip angle. In contrast the graph shows the slick experiencing a fairly abrupt loss of ~20% of it's traction at a slip angle of 6deg.

 

The graph is a generalization, and not an attempt to create Truth. My point is only that it would be hasty to point to this page and say "Skip Barber says slicks are better to learn on".

 

I hate it when one of my students has R Compounds. It's a symptom of folks pursuing speed when they should be focusing on precision, smoothness, and learning to hear what their car is whispering to them.

 

nothing replaces smoothness and precision. your absolutely right

 

if i was running michelin ps2's, i think you would be even more right!

 

very good write up.

 

PS I am all over learning the line and making the turns and not the high speed straights. anybody can point a car and floor it

[berny2435]

I think the RA1 is a great tire to learn on but I still suggest using a street tire for your first 3 - 4 HPDEs at least.. .

[RustyGuns]

I think the RA1 is a great tire to learn on but I still suggest using a street tire for your first 3 - 4 HPDEs at least.. .

 

i did for the first 2.5 HPDE's now I'm gettin' bigger scrubs!

[berny2435]

I think the RA1 is a great tire to learn on but I still suggest using a street tire for your first 3 - 4 HPDEs at least.. .

 

i did for the first 2.5 HPDE's now I'm gettin' bigger scrubs!

 

ha, nice. Them lil ol c5 Z06s need R comps to keep up with me now j/k geterdone!

[bryanrome]

I've been running street tires for a long time with lots of success on my C5Z. I would like to step up to R-Comps, but I would need to get a tire trailer as well.

[STRINGER]

I ran street tires for my first few events. It is a great learning point for your driving mistakes. I switched to RA-1's from an instructor recomendation. I had them with me at every event...but elected not to run them.

 

I will say this. After running the streets for a while, the RA-1's gave as good of feedback as the street tires, but were a lot less verbal per say. The recovery in oversteer was a lot better then expected based on what I read and experienced. But all an all...I am glad I ran street tires at first.

[berny2435]

I've been running street tires for a long time with lots of success on my C5Z. I would like to step up to R-Comps, but I would need to get a tire trailer as well.

 

I'd look into Advan Neovas or Bridgestone Potenza RE-01R tires if you continue to drive your car to the track and are far away. They are the closest tires you can get to an R-comp. The potenza is a lil cheaper but just as good as the Advan. The Potenza is also better than the popular Falken RT-615 and Hankook Z212 RS2 but they are also great and very affordable options for tracking.

 

For R comps that you can drive to the track if you are not that far away try he full tread Advan A048s and/or the newest Toyo R888. They have grooves that run the depth of the main rubber. RA1s and Nitto Nto1s loose their tread pattern before these will.

[sleeperlove]

I've been running street tires for a long time with lots of success on my C5Z. I would like to step up to R-Comps, but I would need to get a tire trailer as well.

 

I'd look into Advan Neovas or Bridgestone Potenza RE-01R tires if you continue to drive your car to the track and are far away. They are the closest tires you can get to an R-comp. The potenza is a lil cheaper but just as good as the Advan. The Potenza is also better than the popular Falken RT-615 and Hankook Z212 RS2 but they are also great and very affordable options for tracking.

 

 

That is not necessarily true. At the very best they just a touch faster and definitely not enough to warrant almost twice the cost of azenis. GRM did a test of the stone, kook, falken, and advan and the falken was faster in both autocross and track lap times. Take it as you will but even that test was skewed and the re-01 are a bit faster its not enough so be worth as much as they cost over the 615s when maybe you get a small fraction of a second per lap. For HPDE whats it matter?

[berny2435]

 

That is not necessarily true. At the very best they just a touch faster and definitely not enough to warrant almost twice the cost of azenis. GRM did a test of the stone, kook, falken, and advan and the falken was faster in both autocross and track lap times. Take it as you will but even that test was skewed and the re-01 are a bit faster its not enough so be worth as much as they cost over the 615s when maybe you get a small fraction of a second per lap. For HPDE whats it matter?

 

I'm just reccomending tires that perform.. . Maybe some people that are parusing this thread don't know about all the new tire tech available out there.. .

 

Beleive what you want. I have people at Bridgestone that have done other tests.. . Shave each tire to 4/32 and the RE01R will desimate the Azenis in a 15-20 lap road race.. .

 

GRM's test was skewed a lil bit. Not all tires were new but the RE01R was and they said that a used, almost bald Azenis is at it's prime so that is what they used. They had to shave the RE01R to get it near what the Azenis was at. It still had ugly shaving marks on it after the test. Do you think it was performing to its max capability? I don't think it was.. .

 

The Advan Neova is not worth the money and the RE01R is more affordable but yes, it is still $206 for a 255/40/17 at Tirerack

Azenis is $130 at Edgeracing

Toyo RA1 is $174 at edge as well

Advan Neova is $245 at tirerack

 

If I was taking a track only set of rims to the track, they'd be getting the RA1s hands down anyways.. .

 

There is nothing wrong with going with the Azenis or the Kook though.

[Mac11]

 

That is not necessarily true. At the very best they just a touch faster and definitely not enough to warrant almost twice the cost of azenis. GRM did a test of the stone, kook, falken, and advan and the falken was faster in both autocross and track lap times. Take it as you will but even that test was skewed and the re-01 are a bit faster its not enough so be worth as much as they cost over the 615s when maybe you get a small fraction of a second per lap. For HPDE whats it matter?

 

I'm just reccomending tires that perform.. . Maybe some people that are parusing this thread don't know about all the new tire tech available out there.. .

 

Beleive what you want. I have people at Bridgestone that have done other tests.. . Shave each tire to 4/32 and the RE01R will desimate the Azenis in a 15-20 lap road race.. .

 

GRM's test was skewed a lil bit. Not all tires were new but the RE01R was and they said that a used, almost bald Azenis is at it's prime so that is what they used. They had to shave the RE01R to get it near what the Azenis was at. It still had ugly shaving marks on it after the test. Do you think it was performing to its max capability? I don't think it was.. .

 

The Advan Neova is not worth the money and the RE01R is more affordable but yes, it is still $206 for a 255/40/17 at Tirerack

Azenis is $130 at Edgeracing

Toyo RA1 is $174 at edge as well

Advan Neova is $245 at tirerack

 

If I was taking a track only set of rims to the track, they'd be getting the RA1s hands down anyways.. .

 

There is nothing wrong with going with the Azenis or the Kook though.

 

actually the azenies don't do nearly as well after they have "aged" as they do fresh.

[berny2435]

actually the azenies don't do nearly as well after they have "aged" as they do fresh.

 

I never said they were. I SAID THEY SAID.. . argue with GRM if you want to about that. I'm sure they have more experience with the Azenis than you do though. I have no personal experience with them bald but I have heard the Azenis will work even untill you see threads.

 

FYI there is one hour left to get a set at $100 off from Discounttiredirect.com

[bryanrome]

I've been running street tires for a long time with lots of success on my C5Z. I would like to step up to R-Comps, but I would need to get a tire trailer as well.

 

I'd look into Advan Neovas or Bridgestone Potenza RE-01R tires if you continue to drive your car to the track and are far away. They are the closest tires you can get to an R-comp. The potenza is a lil cheaper but just as good as the Advan. The Potenza is also better than the popular Falken RT-615 and Hankook Z212 RS2 but they are also great and very affordable options for tracking.

 

 

That is not necessarily true. At the very best they just a touch faster and definitely not enough to warrant almost twice the cost of azenis. GRM did a test of the stone, kook, falken, and advan and the falken was faster in both autocross and track lap times. Take it as you will but even that test was skewed and the re-01 are a bit faster its not enough so be worth as much as they cost over the 615s when maybe you get a small fraction of a second per lap. For HPDE whats it matter?

 

I actually run Falkens now.

 

I love 'em for street tires. I got 10k on them with 1/2 the tread left, that's with 4 track days and a half dozen or so autoxes. They stick like my old GY Eagle F1 Supercars and cost half as much. My only gripe is they get really greasy after they're heated up and my car instantaneously turns into a understeering pig.

 

I want to run a 5 pt TT tire, something like a NT01 or RA1: I want to run TT soon and stay in TTA. I suppose if I go with a 100 treadwear tire I could change them at home and drive to the track on them.