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Can HPDE 1 and 2 guys run R compounds?

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kbrew8991

most R-comps have less predictable breakaway (especially something like a Hoosier)... sounds like the Hankook is an exception

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cosm3os
2) To dis-credit another mis-conception that R compounds wear out super fast. My Azenis were absolutely toast after 5 weekends and the Hankooks are exactly 50% down (Mesured with a tread gauge) after 5 weekends.

 

So even if the Hankooks are rated 50 treadwear (Compared to 150 or 200 on the Azenis) they should last 8-10 weekends on my Mustang or about twice as long as the Azenis

 

Treadlife is usually not the issue with R's--heat cycles are. You won't get 8-10 weekends of good tire out of those.

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TorqueAholic

Treadlife is usually not the issue with R's--heat cycles are. You won't get 8-10 weekends of good tire out of those.

 

I have to say that the Hankooks are less racy than the Hoosiers and are probably better suited to an HPDE car as well because:

 

They so far seem pretty impervious to heat cycles. They went down some at the beginning in grip compared to new but have leveled out and are about the same since the 3rd weekend.

 

The Toyo RA-1's are in the same boat, like to Hankooks they may not stick quite like a racier Hoosier but they are good for the long run.

 

Also, the Hankooks are re-enforced on the outside to again deal with the short-commings of street suspension so the heat seems nice and even for me.

 

Again, the further down you go on the "Racy" path the more $$ and hassles but so-far the Hankooks absolutely rock and a FAR better on track than the Azenis

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TorqueAholic
most R-comps have less predictable breakaway (especially something like a Hoosier)... sounds like the Hankook is an exception

 

My experience is with Z211's and RA1's

 

If you read the Skip Barber book "Mastering the art of race driving" he says:

 

"Typically, a racing slick has a more gradual loss of grip past its peak than a street radial, making it more forgiving as you exceed the peak slip angle. Today's high-performance street radials are not all that peaky, but as a RULE they are worse than slicks"

 

Keep in mind that Skip Barber makes extensive use of telemetry to back-up what they say, in fact they pioneered using telemetry for racing schools.

 

It just plain make sense that a tire specifically designed to work at or past its adherence limits would handle those siuations better than a tire designed for Rain / Shine / Low noise / Good Life / Performance

 

 

You might want to check your sources

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kbrew8991

my sources are my own experience (few years worth, plus instructing, plus kicking ass in Time Trials )

 

what may make them less edgy for you is your car is an understeer machine that overloads the crap out of the front tires, having more grip may reduce the tendency for the car to suddenly push

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TorqueAholic
my sources are my own experience (few years worth, plus instructing, plus kicking ass in Time Trials )

 

what may make them less edgy for you is your car is an understeer machine that overloads the crap out of the front tires, having more grip may reduce the tendency for the car to suddenly push

 

Actually, again based on experience and not "hear say" and contrary to popular folklore, the Mustang does not do anything sudden, simple physics my friend mass = slower responses that are easy to control. There is no "terminal understeer" or "Snap Oversteer".

 

TrackAddict has had the same experience with RA1's in his supremely well balanced RX-8. Tires designed to be driven at the limit are easier to handle at the limit..

 

By the way, with my modifications and tires my Mustang also has amazing balance and grip as evidenced by the even and long wear on my track tires.

 

See for yourself around CMP next week when I'm on your rear bumper...

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kbrew8991

thats contrary to alot of people's experiences.. and besides, do you want to instruct the newbie on Hoosiers in the Hennesy Viper? I don't, but I'd feel better with at least slicker tires so we won't be going as fast when he puts us in the wall

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TorqueAholic

I guess we'll just agree to dis-agree..

 

You commin' to CMP next week? I am actually thinking about TTC next week.

 

I guess I can just rent a transponder from Julie right?

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kbrew8991

Yeah, just sign up to rent a transponder... you've done TT before right? (or a DE4/TT combined that was open passing??)

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Renesisfury
Yeah, just sign up to rent a transponder... you've done TT before right? (or a DE4/TT combined that was open passing??)

on the transponder issue, where are you guys mounting them on a "stock" car?

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StealthTT
most R-comps have less predictable breakaway (especially something like a Hoosier)... sounds like the Hankook is an exception

 

If you read the Skip Barber book "Mastering the art of race driving" he says:

 

You might want to check your sources

 

Many people claim this book is written by Skip Barber. I'm not sure if you're implying that. The book is actually written by Carl Lopez and it's titled, "Going Faster: Mastering the Art of Race Driving: The Skip Barber Racing School" It was first published in 1997 I believe. It's a collection of wisdom from instructors at Skip Barber including Skip Barber, Carrol Smith, and Mario Andretti to name a few of the contributors. Once again, I hear quite a few people site it as the gospel as spoken by Skip Barber, not that you are.

 

It's been a while since I picked the book up, but I have a hard time believing they said a full race tire like a Hoosier has a predictable break-away compared to a street tire when in the hands of a novice. Maybe an experienced racer would know what it feels like when the tire is about to breakaway and more importantly know what to do when it does get away from you. But a novice or even intermediate driver who's new to R-comps will not possess those skills.

 

An acquaintance with lots of HPDE's under his belt destroyed his car at Road America last fall. The Hoosiers broke loose at the apex of turn 13, he counter-steered, and the tires caught traction & launched him straight into the wall. There was no warning from tire squeal the car just rotated in a snap. The instructor riding with him was stunned that they'd snapped over as well. After talking to race control and the RA safety director, it turns out there's a small bump in the track and it'll unsettle the suspension. That was enough for the Hoosiers to break.

 

I've heard this same story several times. In HPDE you're learning a lot of things at the same time. Sensing for an impending snap-oversteer is a skill best learned on its own. You should first learn car control using old fashioned telemetry; howling tires, steering wheel in your hands, and your brain.

 

p.s. Maybe your Hoosiers have fallen off and are behaving like a street tire. Get enough heat cycles in them and they'll lose a very significant amount of grip. They can howl at the limit and slide just like a regular tire. What kind of camber and pressure are you running them at? Do you store them properly? Hoosiers are finicky.

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berny2435

what about Newbie's running on Advan 048s or Michelin Sport Cups? They are 60-60 tread wear respectively. A048s even come on some cars for factory option.. . R these acceptable entry level R's?

 

As a newb I wouldn't be looking for an Rcompound if the better street tires out there on the market came in a 225/45/15 but they just don't. Azenis or Kook RS2s just don't have the grip for my 210whp 165trq basically stock K20 in a NASA H1 trim. Auto X sucks on 205 RT615s & kook Rs2s. Advan A048 and Michelin Sport Cups come in a 225/50/15 but are BIG $$$s.

 

I think the Pontiac Solstice cars on the Speed TV show "Setup" Were running on Shaved Potenza RE-o1Rs. Evidently that was enough tire for them to Race on.. . I'd love for them to start making a 225/45/15 for me but they got no love in 15s and only 225/50/16 which is too tall for my Honda.. .

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STRINGER

Well as a newbie to racing...I found this post quite interesting.

 

This is my 2 cents

 

I say run the tire that your skill level and vehicle can handle. I have a set of RA-1's but have yet to even bolt them on the car. I am currently running Falken HP street tires and I am very happy with them. There are two reasons for this. One is for getting the feel of them for the rain days. Two is that although "I" may be able to handle the R compund tires...I dont feel the car is up to par to handle them effectively

 

EDIT:

 

AND for the following post...yes HPDE

 

sorry I did not post that before

Edited by Guest

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Frank Corkran
Well as a newbie to racing...

 

BZZZZZT!! Don't you mean "... as a newbie to high performance driver education?" Or are you actually racing on street tires (Legends car?).

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stevo8

ok so here is one for you thats somewhat on topic....

 

I just bought a car that was fully tta prepped and competitive. About 300hp no275/40/17's coil overs ect. I have never been to a track day before but have motorsports background(dirtbikes/quads/go karts ect) so i feel like a have a decent base to start with. my last car was a evo as well with springs/rt-615's and 270hp but had to sell it before I saw the track in it.

 

The car I just purchased comes with a very good set of 275/40/17 RA1's but no street tires. For my first track day I had not planned to run r-compounds but I am debating either

 

A. run the ra1's and get the seat time on 8/17/07 OR

 

B. wait another month so I can afford some 615's

 

Now I completely agree with everyone that says street tires will teach you more but in my case, i am thinking that seat time would be more valueble with r-compounds compared to doing one less event...... What do ou guys think?

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Renesisfury
ok so here is one for you thats somewhat on topic....

 

I just bought a car that was fully tta prepped and competitive. About 300hp no275/40/17's coil overs ect. I have never been to a track day before but have motorsports background(dirtbikes/quads/go karts ect) so i feel like a have a decent base to start with. my last car was a evo as well with springs/rt-615's and 270hp but had to sell it before I saw the track in it.

 

The car I just purchased comes with a very good set of 275/40/17 RA1's but no street tires. For my first track day I had not planned to run r-compounds but I am debating either

 

A. run the ra1's and get the seat time on 8/17/07 OR

 

B. wait another month so I can afford some 615's

 

Now I completely agree with everyone that says street tires will teach you more but in my case, i am thinking that seat time would be more valueble with r-compounds compared to doing one less event...... What do ou guys think?

Without learning how to listen and feel the car on a track, you are far more liken to mess something up.

 

R Comps give you much less, and in some cases NO warning before they break loose. Street tires "talk" so much more, and you can normally hear when the tire is approaching the limit.

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stevo8

^ I agree with you completely and am not in any way arguing that... BUT it basicly comes down to seat time with r-compounds, or no seat time at all for a while.

 

 

On a side not I have been told that the RA1's are fairly forgiving and make a bit of noise before letting go.,,

 

I have used r-compounds on a sportbike and know what your getting at, but at a track like t-hill I believe that if Im smart about it I should be fine.

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STRINGER
^ I agree with you completely and am not in any way arguing that... BUT it basicly comes down to seat time with r-compounds, or no seat time at all for a while.

 

 

On a side not I have been told that the RA1's are fairly forgiving and make a bit of noise before letting go.,,

 

I have used r-compounds on a sportbike and know what your getting at, but at a track like t-hill I believe that if Im smart about it I should be fine.

 

well looking at your track time in other vehicles...I would add this if you are running HPDE

 

If this is your first with NASA. Run at least 2 sessions with a good set of street tires. I suggest that you ask the guys that run the same car as you as to what is a good choice. This will give you a great feel for the track and the car and to warm you up and prepare you to switch. After switching you will have a good knowledge or whats different between the two.

 

My goal this weekend myself at VIR is to run streets Saturday and then if I am comfortable with the track...put the RA-1's on to see the difference. I personaly dont think my car is capable of utilizing the full potential of the tires...but we will see.

 

I am sure being a bike man you know the difference in tires and what they can take. I would just urge you to start a couple session with a good set of high performance street tires to give yourself a little room and comparison. A lot can be learned through patience and potential.

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berny2435

For those looking for sticky street tires but not wanting to go R compound, Bridgestone Potenza RE-01Rs are a great way to go.

 

More sizes are now offered for us Honda and Miata guys now too.

195/50/15

205/45/16

 

These are a far better Road Race / HPDE tires than the Falken RT615 or Hankook RS2 or most other tires in 15" sizes especially. Advan AD07s are good ones too for people runnin 17s but they are pricey. RE01Rs are cheaper thant he Advans and are just as good.

 

Some good reads here: GRM likes them better than RT 615s and they prove it too.. .

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/news/042007/st-tire-testing-bridgestone-vs-falken.php

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shotgunslade

Just put a set of 245/40-17 RE01-R's on my alternate wheels for my Subaru SVX. Changing over from BFG G-Force KDW-2's of the same size. Will put on the alternate wheels late this week and drive down to Summit Point for their 2-day HPDE event.

 

Do I need to try to heat cycle them before I go? If so, how stringent should I be? The whole "twenty minutes of figure 8's followed by removing the wheels from the car and reducing pressure for an overnite rest", or something less? Thanks.

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berny2435
Just put a set of 245/40-17 RE01-R's on my alternate wheels for my Subaru SVX. Changing over from BFG G-Force KDW-2's of the same size. Will put on the alternate wheels late this week and drive down to Summit Point for their 2-day HPDE event.

 

Do I need to try to heat cycle them before I go? If so, how stringent should I be? The whole "twenty minutes of figure 8's followed by removing the wheels from the car and reducing pressure for an overnite rest", or something less? Thanks.

 

I've heard of just driving them for 50 miles on the highway at minimum is good too. Heat cycling is always good though.

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berny2435

I just ran my first track day on full tread Toyo RA1s, 225/45/15 on 15x7.5 rims. Upgraded from Hankook RS2 Z212 205/45/16s. I just spent a day at Mid America Motorplex just south of Omaha. Nice day, around 90 deg, humid but there was a breeze. I started my first two sessions on streets and then went to R comps. Got in 7 sessions total. I've driven the track once without an instructor last year. Here is some input from the day and some background as well.

 

The Car -

95 Honda Civic 2dr Cpe - 2480 with driver and full tank. 210whp and 157trq on K20a2 6spd swap. Complete suspension overhaul with all new sus bushings and some spherical bearings. Koni 8041 Race Shocks with 650# fronts and 850# rears. Stock GSR sway bars front and rear. Camber = -2.5 front and -2.0 rear. Zero Toe front and rear.

Brakes - ITR fronts with Satisfied Gransport GS3 pads, Stock Integra GSR rears with carbotech Xp8s rear. AP racing 5.1 fluid. Stock lines, MC, prop valve.. .

 

Past Experience - Started last year, 5 total track days. Over 20 lapping sessions. about 3 in the rain/damp track. 3 Auto X with car.

 

Reason for switching tires - The street tires in my size just aren't grippy enough. Auto X sucks on them and understeer is just ridiculous and slow. Off throttle oversteer is manageable but inconsistant and can get scary.

 

The event -

Find the Line - No instructor but well organized. Parade lap with an experience guy in car showing me the line. Did 2 sessions on streets then went R comps on third. Skipped 4th session to rid with Damian Dela Huerta in his lightnening quick 93 RX7. I picked up some good things from him and put them too use on the track. Great Guy and driver.

 

Research before event -Watched some racing footage of the track

Got some Tire pressure cold and hot tips from some FWD Honda Challenge racers.

 

synopsis of my track time - Street tires - Understeer, Understeer, Understeer. Tire spin too easy when cornering in 3rd gear. Can lock up the tires with my front brakes pretty easy. Best lap time in low 1:56. Street tires were still fun though

Toyo RA1s - WOW! whole new car out there. I took it pretty easy on my frist session out there on the tires. The tires really brought the car to life with the suspension setup and motor. Understeer reduced dramatically. Off throttle oversteer was much more manageable and consistant. Braking power went up dramatically and WOW I can brake deep. The tires talked to me and whenever I got squirley, they were very manageable to bring the car back to stable. I tested the limits and I felt comfortable that I could handle the rear getting loose or the car pushing situations with throttle control. Trail braking was good. I kept improving my corner entry and exit speeds and my braking zones through out the day. My best lap time was 3 seconds faster on R comps and my average lap times were even better. The only thing I would change on my car now is getting an LSD and maybe a taller FD but that can wait.

 

Setup WOOS! - The toyo RA1s do not like to see 44.5 PSI in the front with my setup! The drivers side front went from 31PSI cold to 44.5! Yowsa! I made adjustments and got it too 39psi at end of day after 1-2 cool down laps. I think I still need to get lower, probably 37 PSI front after 1 cool down lap. I need a little more rear sway bar to help understeer but I'm going to play with rear tire pressure more to C where I can get with that.

 

Tire wear -

Looked good. Fronts had a little bit more inside wear but changing tire pressures may help a bit. Rears looked good with little wear. Will swap rears to front next time out.

 

For Next time -

I'll probably be going back to the same track for my next session. I plan to play with rear tire pressures a bit more to gain or subtrack oversteer. I'm going to try and not make the tires talk so much and be smoother and I think I may have an opportunity to get Corner weighted so that will probably help too. Just get out there, learn, have fun and be safe. I'm going to continue to work on getting smoother, more consistant and looking ahead.

 

Overall

I couldn't be more pleased with my first track day on Rcomps. I thought I would be a little bit faster but that will come with more experience and I'll have fun getting that experience. I'm not scared that I didn't get the most out of street tires before switching over b/c I honestly feel that street tires in my sizes just can't handle what my car puts out. It's gonna be tough to go back to street tires but I will still run them on the track for rain. When I get another set of 15x7.5s. They will get some 225/45/15 street tires as well. Auto X will never C street tires if the sky is blue again.

The Fun -

Putting the smack down on a couple Stock E46 M3s on street tires and some dyno tuned 300whp EVOs and STis was fun. It's always good to see the point by!

 

I hope you enjoyed the read and maybe found some insite. Any constructive input is appreciated

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berny2435

It looks like about 100 people have visitied this thread since my post and have made no comments.. . If that's good or bad I dunno and it doesn't really concern me that much.

 

I would also like to emphasize I was on FULL TREAD RA1s. From what I hear they talk more with tread than when they are down to 4 or 2 grooves.

 

This is one of those posts "Your Milieage May Very" type thing. Just b/c I made the jump and had a good time/experience, it doesn't mean it's the right choice for you. My cars handeling characterstics are pretty predictable so hopefully My learning curve will just advance with the wear on my tires.

 

There was a guy there at the track that had just purchased not to long ago a E30 BMW that was caged up and ready to race. Like 3 previous HPDEs under his belt. He was on Hankook RS2 street tires b/c he wanted to get as fast as he can on those before making the jump.. . Kudos to him but I don't know if I'm ever going to actually get into a racing series or not but I'd like to.. .

 

2 other people were at the track with full tread RA1s as well. Noob to R comps in a 245whp Turbo II RX7 and veteran in a 350whp + EVO MR. They both liked the tires and had good luck with them. They both saw more wear than I did.

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gumbyada

I ran RA-1s for the first time at roebling, and the grip was just ridiculous.

 

I do not think I was ready for that much grip.

Im in a 1.6sohc civic, and I was flat at as soon as I got on the gas from turn 1 all the way until 3 (or 4?)

 

They had full tread and were talking to me, but I believe what they were saying was just to go faster!!

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STRINGER

I ran the first session at Roebling Road with Falken Tires. Talk about a tire screaming loudly. There was no way a street tire was going to grip here. Not at least the ones I had. I was talked into putting on the RA-1's. First time every driving on them. Worn down extremely to the point that they were close to being slicks. I will say they talked to me very well. They handled the turns great. But I will say this...I am glad I ran on street tires prior to this to give me a good feel for the car itself.

 

But I also have to give shouts to my instructors, they alone have been my greatest resource in this great adventure.

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