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Pics of your SN95 cages?


ScotWithOne_t

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Do you guys see any problem with mounting the main hoop on the raised section on the leading edge of the rear seat?

 

The kit came with 6"x6" mounting plates, so I would probably put a 90° bend in them and place them on top of that raised part. The rules for roll bars in the HPDE section seem pretty sparce, so I'm assuming that details like mounting locations, whether or not the diagonal brace is one piece, etc. are not going to be considered by the tech inspectors. As I understand it, anything mentioned in section 15.6 of the CCR applies ONLY to full cages, however I'd like to follow it somewhat since I'm sure the rules in 15.6 are there because it is the best (safest) way of doing things.

 

PERSONALLY, I would not attach the main hoop to the rear bulkhead. That piece can actually be cut out (drill out spot welds) pretty easy. It's a better idea to attach the main hoop to the outside frame rails and just tilt the main hoop back for the added headroom.

 

Matt, I'm going on my interpretation of the rule. It clearly says as Grumpy (if you don't know who he is, read the credits in the CCR) has already copied/pasted, "Driver side head and passenger side floor." This means TO ME that it cannot connect to a 'harness/horizontal' bar anywhere along the way to either end, and yes, I have a new found appreciation for cage building , mine held up just fine this time, and I hope it holds up just fine the next time.

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PERSONALLY, I would not attach the main hoop to the rear bulkhead. That piece can actually be cut out (drill out spot welds) pretty easy. It's a better idea to attach the main hoop to the outside frame rails and just tilt the main hoop back for the added headroom.

 

I know that peice can be removed...that's why I may run a few stitch weld beads along the seams to strengthen it up some. The main hoop is not quite wide enough to set on the outter rocker panel frame rails, so I would have to build an outrigger of some sort to support it.

 

Another question:

Does the main hoop have to be any certian distance from the driver's (and passenger's) head? I know the NHRA rules say it has to within so many inches or something, but I didn't see anything like that in the NASA CCR.

 

And on a side note... has anyone ever seen/heard of a car failing tech for HPDE, due to the roll bar not conforming to all the details listed in the 15.6 cage spec?

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Can you guys find where it's quoted in the CCR where a 1pc main hoop diagonal is required? I was trying to argue that point a while back then couldn't find the section in the CCR.

 

Thanks.

 

The CCR states where each end of the bar should connect. Driver side head and passenger side floor.

 

15.6.7 Diagonal Brace

At least one (1) diagonal brace shall be used in the same plane as the main hoop. One

end of the diagonal brace shall attach to the corner, or horizontal part, of the main hoop

above the driver’s head, within twelve (12) inches of the driver’s-side corner. The other

end of the diagonal brace shall attach to the mounting plate (or to the main hoop as

close to the mounting plate as practically possible) diagonally opposed to the driver’s

head (passenger floor).

 

Where does it state that the diagonal needs to be one continious piece?

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OK, let's read the rule together from the top. Here's where some reading comprehension and understanding of the meaning of certain loaded words commonly used in rules interpretation is required. "Shall" in rulespeak means "must," not "may," "can," "could," "should," or "would."

 

15.6.7 Diagonal Brace

At least one (1) diagonal brace shall be used in the same plane as the main hoop. One end of the diagonal brace shall attach to the corner, or horizontal part, of the main hoop above the driver’s head, within twelve (12) inches of the driver’s-side corner.

That's pretty clear. One end of the diagonal must start up near the corner of the main hoop.

 

The other end of the diagonal brace shall attach to the mounting plate (or to the main hoop as close to the mounting plate as practically possible) diagonally opposed to the driver’s head (passenger floor).

Here's where it gets important that you understand what "shall" means. The second part of the rule says THE OTHER END, not one of several ends including other ends that may terminate on a horizontal bar, MUST attach to the mounting PLATE, again not a horizontal bar running between the main hoop uprights, diagonally opposed to the driver's head. I think it's pretty clear what not just the intent, but the actual written word of the rule is regarding the proper construction of the diagonal brace.

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How can one (1) diagonal brace, which terminates at the main hoop and the passenger floor be more than one piece?

 

What other required bar do you think can be multiple pieces welded together?

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Well, the way I see it right now is that there are still TWO interpretations out on the table....both justified especially given there are so many cars running around that have already been approved by NASA tech officials in each region. Can Grumpy or JWL chime in for an official ruling on this so I can prepare to go out in the garage and start cutting into the monkey bars?

 

I will be at nationals and don't want any grief because our local tech inspections aren't corresponding with National.

 

thanks!

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How can one (1) diagonal brace, which terminates at the main hoop and the passenger floor be more than one piece?

 

What other required bar do you think can be multiple pieces welded together?

 

I don't really think that's a fair question. We're not talking about a butt-welded piece that could buckle under load. This is an intersection of two pieces, so one has to be split...it's just a question of wether you want to split the diagonal which helps provide support in a rollover, or split the harness bar which provides additional support in the event of a side impact.

 

Six of one, half dozen of the other.

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90%, Matt?? Have you personally inspected all the cars competing in Texas? I don't think so.....

 

 

Not that I am continuing to stir a pot here, but just looking for an answer.

 

Adam, go watch the 2006 NASA TX recap video and you will see Varner's car at 12:11, Lyons car which is a former regional champ car at 12:59, Rueth's car at 13:09...maybe, and Mosty at 13:23.....ALL with segmented diagonal bars on the main hoop. Is that 90% of the cars in TX, admittedly no...but I think you did tech a couple of these once as regional director...right?

 

Has anyone brought this thread to JWL or Grumpy's attention so we can get a ruling? Would just like to know so we can remedy things if need be.

 

Thanks!

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I don't really think that's a fair question. We're not talking about a butt-welded piece that could buckle under load. This is an intersection of two pieces, so one has to be split...it's just a question of wether you want to split the diagonal which helps provide support in a rollover, or split the harness bar which provides additional support in the event of a side impact.

 

I think it is fair to the extent one can read the CCR to mean the diagonal is a required bar and the harness bar is not. Also, to be fair to your position, your observation of an intersection IS normal and allowed in all the door bar construction I have seen.

 

Has anyone brought this thread to JWL or Grumpy's attention so we can get a ruling? Would just like to know so we can remedy things if need be.

 

I second the motion...

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Guys-

 

This has been brought to my attention and I'm working on it. We're not going to outlaw cars with this approach that already have books, but if you're building a new one, I'd strongly suggest the one piece diagonal. Look for a more solid answer next week as it's taking longer than expected to hash this one out.

 

Thanks.

 

-JWL

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In my opinion - make both bars required on new builds - the diagonal AND the full width harness bar - and give the builder the option which one is solid. Both are most likely to be loaded in compression, where the weld is unlikely to be a major issue as long as it's done 360* and with sufficient penetration. Just my $0.02.

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In my opinion - make both bars required on new builds - the diagonal AND the full width harness bar

 

I don't like that. Sometimes the harness bar needs to be 'set back' from the diagonal, making it required would likely also make it straight and you wouldn't be able to put 2 bends in it and attach it to the main hoop and diagonal.

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In my opinion - make both bars required on new builds - the diagonal AND the full width harness bar

 

I don't like that. Sometimes the harness bar needs to be 'set back' from the diagonal, making it required would likely also make it straight and you wouldn't be able to put 2 bends in it and attach it to the main hoop and diagonal.

 

Can you put a straight seat belt bar in a car like a miata if you have a large driver?

 

If the integrity of the welds are good it really does not matter what bar is in 2 pieces and which is solid.

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In my opinion - make both bars required on new builds - the diagonal AND the full width harness bar

 

I don't like that. Sometimes the harness bar needs to be 'set back' from the diagonal, making it required would likely also make it straight and you wouldn't be able to put 2 bends in it and attach it to the main hoop and diagonal.

Very good point. I never thought of that. Since I've never built a car that required this, I've never given it much thought. Hmm...

 

On Edit: I suppose you could still require it, and allow it to be bent if the tubing used is one size thicker wall, or maybe make an exception to the straight bar requirement for certain vehicles that really need this. Either way, I still think you're miles safer having this bar extend the width of the car - even with a bend. In a driver's side impact that's a little farther back (ie right at the main hoop) there is very little to keep the main hoop from folding up in the middle without a harness bar - especially in a unibody car.

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Either way, I still think you're miles safer having this bar extend the width of the car - even with a bend. In a driver's side impact that's a little farther back (ie right at the main hoop) there is very little to keep the main hoop from folding up in the middle without a harness bar - especially in a unibody car.

 

Agreed. Which is why mine will have it, and it makes a nice place to mount a camera to

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Guys-

 

This has been brought to my attention and I'm working on it. We're not going to outlaw cars with this approach that already have books, but if you're building a new one, I'd strongly suggest the one piece diagonal. Look for a more solid answer next week as it's taking longer than expected to hash this one out.

 

Thanks.

 

-JWL

 

Great! Bookmarking this thread for future reference!

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Adam, go watch the 2006 NASA TX recap video and you will see Varner's car at 12:11, Lyons car which is a former regional champ car at 12:59, Rueth's car at 13:09...maybe, and Mosty at 13:23.....ALL with segmented diagonal bars on the main hoop. Is that 90% of the cars in TX, admittedly no...but I think you did tech a couple of these once as regional director...right?

 

Varner's car has a bolt in Autopower cage ( legal according to the CCR's ) and was inspected and given a logbook by a National person on it's first day at the track in 2003. It should be the same Autopower in my car, and the diagonal is one piece, not segmented:

 

rc-boltin.jpg

 

Lyon's car had a logbook from a previous region, as does Rueth's car. Both of those vehicles were inspected and logged from another region, and were safety inspected in Texas by NASA Texas inspectors, not the series directors. Mosty's car was also inspected by NASA TX Scrutineers, and appears to have a solid diagonal bar, not segmented. Some of the shots are really hard to tell.....

 

We ( the series directors ) were told in 2004 and 2005 that we were not permitted to provide any safety inspections - that had to be done by the NASA Texas Scrutineer(s).

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First, there are two "Mosty" cars in the TX region. My car is AI #67 and my twin brother's is CMC #11.

 

Now, just for the record, my diagional bar is segmented. The harness bar is a single piece. I can't remember what Michael's bars look like, but his car is a lonely CMC car , so we'll keep this discussion purely AI.

 

I'm not if favor of any way over another with respect to safety. Personally, each way has their strength and weakness.

 

My car was inspected by NASA TX chief scruitineer Ryan Arnold at the end of the 2004 season and found to be compliant with the CCR's and American Iron rules at that time. My roll cage was stamped and I received a log book.

 

If the powers at be decide to change the ruling and force all the existing cars to comply with the new rules, so be it... I'm not going to get my panties in a wad.

 

It's only money... right?

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If the powers at be decide to change the ruling and force all the existing cars to comply with the new rules, so be it... I'm not going to get my panties in a wad.

 

It's only money... right?

 

Marshall, the piont wasn't necessarily that someone screwed up, just that there there have been several cars signed off on that were apparently wrong??? Adam and I's point of voices being greatly different or my other points regarding HIM, are irrellavent....JWL has ruled that segmented is OK with old log books and I am going with that.....done at this point and see all at nats....

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