pmcrespo Posted April 10, 2007 Share Posted April 10, 2007 Hi, Newbie to the forum. I have a 968 Porsche that I have been considering not use for TT as it does not appear that it will be competitive in its natural class or +1 or 2 with points. Thinking of buying either an 04 330 Ci w/SMG, 01 Non Z06 Vette, or symilarly priced platform (abt 20-25k, 01 and above). Between the two mentioned, which would you considered most competitive in its natural class or one above w some points taken... or, should I be looking at something else.. I know it is a moving target and a difficult question to speak to without making a thousand assumptions, but your input as experienced pros in the matter is greatly appreciated.... Thanks, P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemming Posted April 10, 2007 Share Posted April 10, 2007 Why do you think the 968 will not be competitive in TTD? At a base of TTD*, you have 14 points worth of mods to play with (suspension and RA-1's). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmcrespo Posted April 10, 2007 Author Share Posted April 10, 2007 I may very much be wrong... I was thinking I only had 12 points before hitting 20 and the class bump. I figured with a chip, air box mod and strut tower alone I spend 7 of the 12. That leaves 5 points for tires and one or two suspension tweaks. And I'll still be running with 250 or so horses at 2950lbs. Then I look at the E36 M3 or 944T and TS, some points to play, and think there is no way to make up for the power to weight difference. Especially on the available power for few points on the 944T and even the M3.... Ultimately just trying to rationalize... What has been the experience in average on the tracks with 968s? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GAC Posted April 10, 2007 Share Posted April 10, 2007 I may very much be wrong... I was thinking I only had 12 points before hitting 20 and the class bump. I figured with a chip, air box mod and strut tower alone I spend 7 of the 12. That leaves 5 points for tires and one or two suspension tweaks. And I'll still be running with 250 or so horses at 2950lbs. Then I look at the E36 M3 or 944T and TS, some points to play, and think there is no way to make up for the power to weight difference. Especially on the available power for few points on the 944T and even the M3.... Ultimately just trying to rationalize... What has been the experience in average on the tracks with 968s? You are correct. You have 19 points to play with total before you bump. 7 of those get sucked up in the assessment, leaving 12. An E36 M3 could be very competitive. Your 968 could work...you just have to figure out where its sweet spot class is. You have to spend the hours figuring out what works best for your car. The permutations are almost limitless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemming Posted April 11, 2007 Share Posted April 11, 2007 Ok, so my math is out of wack Anyway, have you done a TT yet, or is this something that you think you might want to do? It seems a bit crazy to go out and buy another car if you are just thinking that you want to run TT's. What track experience do you have? Fantastic driving can make up for quite a few mod points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmcrespo Posted April 11, 2007 Author Share Posted April 11, 2007 Amazing! Math just everywhere!... Did some competitive tracking back in college before coming to the States. Not a huge amount though. Just started getting back into it doing DEs and putting down track time, I am pretty committed. Not pro, but on a weekend warrior basis. And before I start sinking a lot of $$ into the ride, I am trying to be pragmatic and start with the right platform off the gates, given the information and intentions I have now, while knowing they may change in the future. God knows we all want to be competitive..... Plus roll cage backing plates and holes through the trim just don't help resale value... Understand the skills are key. But I know most of you are in the 95 percentile anyway and I try to never overestimate or overstate my driving... I am always learning from everyone else... and I appreciate everyones thoughts here... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cosm3os Posted April 11, 2007 Share Posted April 11, 2007 .02 from a rookie. The last rules changes favor cars that are already modified (free flywheels, brakes, roll bars, wt rules) so any car that is truly "out of the box" is gonna have trouble competing. In fact, the trend seems to be building purpose built TT racecars (myself included). My advice would be to pick a platform that fits your budget, then consult a reputable racecar builder about how to best use mod points for that particular car. For example, a friend of mine has an e36 m3 with cams and all the supporting hard and software need to optimize them, coilovers, and r compounds and I think he's gonna have to run TTB. He bought the car that way with no consideration to TT points, and the engine mod points alone are killing him. I took the same car, left the motor alone, stripped it out, bought the best basic coilover I could find, and filled all the joints with metal, and run Hankook R's. It's a flat out race car now that is 50 hp down on the other car, but weighs 400 lbs less and has an all business suspension--and I'm still in TTD and turning faster laps then the other guy. Bottom line--puting driving skill aside, TT is no longer a venue for racing your daily driver. You need a no-compromises race car which requires careful planning. After you do that, then you have to address the fact that there are some pro-quality drivers in TT with good race car tech support behind them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
944-Spec#94 Posted April 11, 2007 Share Posted April 11, 2007 I may very much be wrong... I was thinking I only had 12 points before hitting 20 and the class bump. I figured with a chip, air box mod and strut tower alone I spend 7 of the 12. That leaves 5 points for tires and one or two suspension tweaks. And I'll still be running with 250 or so horses at 2950lbs. Well chip mod is a waste of points. 5 points for 5 hp. Not worth it. Same for air box and STB. See 12 points to spend on 968. Order of priority 12 points to spend Tires = At least Toyo's +5 Tire width = Run 245 all corners = +1 Springs = 2 Shocks = 3 Sways = 2 Total Points = 13 Ok you are 1 point into the next class... so go stock sways. 11 points and if you want hp remove the cat +1. So this is best way of spending 12 points Hey I run a 84 944 NA with 134 whp and 2600lbs with me in the car in D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cosm3os Posted April 11, 2007 Share Posted April 11, 2007 If he's in TTD, then 245's are not a size increase so +0. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
944-Spec#94 Posted April 11, 2007 Share Posted April 11, 2007 If he's in TTD, then 245's are not a size increase so +0. Oh yeah..... I take points for 225's since I start in F, E's base is 235's and D must start with 245's. So even better Tires +5 for RA-1's Springs +2 Shock +3 Sways + 2 Total points = 12 points. Then take what ever "free points" you can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
getfast Posted April 11, 2007 Share Posted April 11, 2007 I am trying to develop a somewhat hopefully competitive E36 M3 in D. Put aside the fact that the loose nut behind the wheel still needs the most work and focus on the fact that the car only has 214whp/219wtq and is a whopping 3493 pounds (!) with me in it, on cute little 235 RA1's and stock springs. (I have exactly 3 more points to play with and stay in D, so I have to use them wisely.) Having said that, I would think that a 968 done correctly (tires/suspension/camber, don't use any points chasing HP) would be faster than my car. The 968's handle like a dream and stop very well IMHO. This looks about right: Tires = At least Toyo's +5 Springs = 2 Shocks = 3 Sways = 2 Facing a similar dilemma I did big sways instead of springs because the car is still street driven a lot. I'm not in a position to build this one as a dedicated TT car or anything else (that's what cheap E30's are for, hahahaha.) Anyway, I think you could have a lot of fun in any of the cars you mentioned, but I wouldn't be so quick to abandon the idea of a 968 being competitive. I would love to try to chase one down. Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr PS Posted April 11, 2007 Share Posted April 11, 2007 04 330 Ci w/SMG, The only true SMG is the one that came withe E46 M3. The non-M SMG is a cheap Magneti-Marelli system that shifts like crap. Also, a good BMW for track is the E36 M3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
getfast Posted April 11, 2007 Share Posted April 11, 2007 (edited) Please disregard everything I just typed about my car. I just re-checked it because this thread got me thinking. I have 15 points spent, 4 to play with, and I could get *at least* 200 pounds off the car legally. So I'm nowhere near competitive yet (still disregarding the fact that the driver isn't quite there yet either, of course.) The part about wanting to chase a 968 around for class points in D is still accurate though. I do think it could be competitive. Jon Edited April 11, 2007 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr PS Posted April 11, 2007 Share Posted April 11, 2007 214whp/219wtq and is a whopping 3493 pounds (!) with me in it, on cute little 235 RA1's and stock springs. The E36 baseline weight is still lighter than E46s and the horrible E9X. My E46 is partially stripped, race seats etc and still I compete with 3460lbs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmcrespo Posted April 11, 2007 Author Share Posted April 11, 2007 Great input and advice... thank you for the straight-up advice and opinions. This is one of the things that makes NASA participants so exceptional (IMHO and extra short experience). Definitely agree on the chip being a tough 5 points to justify. And I would probably most likely start with the sways first as well. It'll be tough to shave a lot of weight of the 968 and don't know if the cat removal will do anything for the horses; it may... What are you reclassing to Jon? What has been everyone's experience with existing 968s in D? or even C if re-classed.... Do they run competitively? From reviewing some historical results it does not appear so... and I want to think we 68 owners are not all THAT consistently bad.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
getfast Posted April 11, 2007 Share Posted April 11, 2007 LOL I'm staying in D. Above I meant that I re-checked my classing and found that I had one more point left than I had remembered. It's nice to not have that automatic 7-point penalty. Anyway, I haven't seen many 968's on track in these parts but it does seem like it could be a TTD contender if done correctly. It may be one of those "build it and we'll find out" kind of cars, which could be cool. I don't know if it would have the same luck in C, though... and you could spend cubic dollars finding out. Good luck with whatever you choose, Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemming Posted April 12, 2007 Share Posted April 12, 2007 The part about wanting to chase a 968 around for class points in D is still accurate though. I do think it could be competitive. Jon Yep, that was my point on the last page. Charles Greer is turning 1.37's at Road Atlanta in his PCA F class 968. Granted he is on Hoosiers but that time is still better than the current TTA record of 1.40. In fact the TTD record at RA is 1.46 in an Audi TT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrc24x Posted April 12, 2007 Share Posted April 12, 2007 JMHO...... Tires first, weight second, then ALL of the free mods available = Front running car (any car classified) with the right driver. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted April 12, 2007 Share Posted April 12, 2007 use the free mods and alternate weight reduction method to your advantage as much as you dare you can come in as light as 5lbs (With driver, safety gear, etc) below your listed weight in the rules tables points free, but beware as that 6th lb under will add 1 point to your classing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
944-Spec#94 Posted April 12, 2007 Share Posted April 12, 2007 The part about wanting to chase a 968 around for class points in D is still accurate though. I do think it could be competitive. Jon Yep, that was my point on the last page. Charles Greer is turning 1.37's at Road Atlanta in his PCA F class 968. Granted he is on Hoosiers but that time is still better than the current TTA record of 1.40. In fact the TTD record at RA is 1.46 in an Audi TT. That is a classic example of the TT field right now. In most areas weak. I say not as hit on TT, but it is result of TT being rather new. TT classing chanaged for 2007 and was new for 2006 so past history is weak. Out 944 spec cars are in D, but most are at the bottom of D. A few tweaks and some of us could easly run in E. Still we can set track record times TTD if we chose to run there. Bottomline is at Maxed 968 in TTD should run fairly strong. compared to PCA F our 944's are just a bit slower and should be solid match for properly prepared D 968. At least for right now. One thing to consider is that I'd expect to see a few base classing/weight changes for 2008. Greg Greenbaum has done an excellent job of classing alot of cars, but time will tell that I think a few cars were given generious base classing. On example I think is the E30 M3... A nicely preppared BMWCCA J stock M3 is quite fast and still has room to run in D. I have a feeling in 2008 this may be adjusted slightly. One thing I do like about the TT & PT classing system right now is that there is a place to run any car prepared to any standard. Unlike some places where you simply can't run at all at least in NASA TT you have place where you have a chance to at least not be run over. In PCA club racing a 944 spec car used to run GT4S. We have 130 ish whp and the cars are 2400-2500lbs no driver. GT4 rules are no rules and the only ones are 2.8L and under. Top cars are 300 whp and 2000lbs with every facny suspension part imaginable. Our cars were not only no match, but in reality nothing more than rolling road blocks in a strong GT4S class. Thankfully PCA adopted 944 spec rules in their entirety, but that is not norm and for some cars a mod like that BMW cam swap could take you from a stockish class all the way to competing cars like that found TTR or super unlimited. Talk about no chance... In the end the TT points system given any car a reasonable shot, but as more cars are built for the classes they will learn to best use points for mods that make their cars faster. Thus over time trends will emerge. Right now I think a well driven Model XXXX can be competitive in just about any class so long as some attenttion is paid to which mod points are taken. Chips in 944/944S/944S2/968 are not valuable use of points since the HP are very minium and 5 points in other areas can get you alot more speed. Oh.. with respect to Cat removal. On 944 2.5L 8valve engines guys seem to gain 10 hp removing the stock original cat and going with test pipe. Not sure if this will hold for the 968, but 10 hp for 1 point is a heck of lot better then a chip's 3hp for 5 points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loudes13 Posted April 13, 2007 Share Posted April 13, 2007 Note Charlie "Super Fast" Mason was P2 in TTD at Nationals in a 2.5L 944. Those front engined P cars can be competitive. Only do mods that WILL make it faster. Don't waste pts on things like the strut brace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmcrespo Posted April 13, 2007 Author Share Posted April 13, 2007 Thanks everyone. Outstanding discussion with on-point practical advice. I will take into consideration all the pointers, suggestions, and angles on squeezing speed not with horses but rather biggest bang for you point in terms of grip, handling, and weight. I'll throw some numbers down in terms of HP/pound/point gain and that should give me a good idea on what are the priority mods (outside grip and handling). I'll be on a plane tomorrow to the west coast and will take the time to start sorting through all the rules and point schedules. Pick the priorities and take it from there. Work my way through the first half of the season on that tack and reassess later in the summer. It is a little unsettling to know the rules and classifications are indeed still materially changing from season to season. Especially for those that are sinking $$$ on specific setups that may suddenly not be optimal. Unfotunately, a small price to pay for such great events. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted April 13, 2007 Share Posted April 13, 2007 again, don't overlook the "free" mods and "free" weight reduction Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmcrespo Posted April 14, 2007 Author Share Posted April 14, 2007 Actually, on the weight reduction subject... The 968 is listed in the classing pages at 2,910 lbs. If I am actually higher than that, can I make weight saving modifications that would otheriwse cost me without costing me until I hit 2,910. For example. If I am now at 3,100, can I take off the back seats without incurring the 3 points given that I am not even close to the listed 2,910... and so forth... The whole first paragraph on the Rules (page 20 in my version) is kind of confusing. The way I read it, I should be able to do whatever weight savings techniques without spending points as long as I stay over 2,910. Am I totally misreading this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johannes Posted April 14, 2007 Share Posted April 14, 2007 I was confused at first too. You are correct and the minimum weight is with you in the car in it's lightest weight coming off the track (less gas). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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