pederb Posted May 3, 2007 Share Posted May 3, 2007 Some LS-X news, The new LS3 engine will be a 6.2L aluminum pushrod V8 boasting 430 hp, and replaces the 400hp 6.0L LS2. An optional two-mode exhaust system kicks up horsepower to 436. The Z06 model will also return for 2008 with 505 hp. http://www.sema.org/main/semaorghome.aspx?ID=57282 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pederb Posted May 7, 2007 Share Posted May 7, 2007 Rumor, no more! Pat Lindsey AI #117 came to Willow Springs with a LS1 in his Fox Body. Did pretty well, I think he even won Sundays race Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b_tone Posted May 7, 2007 Share Posted May 7, 2007 Rumor, no more!Pat Lindsey AI #117 came to Willow Springs with a LS1 in his Fox Body. Did pretty well, I think he even won Sundays race I guess that ball was tossed down the slippery slope already then huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Matt Posted May 7, 2007 Share Posted May 7, 2007 While I think this is a bad idea for AI, it will probably be great for CMC in the long run! Come on over folks, lots of room and cheap racing over here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pederb Posted May 7, 2007 Share Posted May 7, 2007 Matt, What can be cheaper then a $3500 crate motor that has to be detuned and probably last forever? We had 4 Ford motors go bad at this race. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Matt Posted May 7, 2007 Share Posted May 7, 2007 Ha ha. That's pretty funny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcmmotorsports Posted May 7, 2007 Share Posted May 7, 2007 Matt, What can be cheaper then a $3500 crate motor that has to be detuned and probably last forever? We had 4 Ford motors go bad at this race. Crate motors are the future of grassroots racing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Algozine Posted May 7, 2007 Share Posted May 7, 2007 Matt, What can be cheaper then a $3500 crate motor that has to be detuned and probably last forever? Being able to drop it in and bolt it right up without fabricating a K member, crossmember, headers...... Every model has strengths and weakneses. Being able to take all the strengths and combine them doesn't seem to be within the spirit of AI. The strong lines that are drawn between manufacturers are a big part of the series. Again, sounds more like AIX to me. It becomes a little clouded when there is a Mustang with an LS1. Where is the aftermarket, factory, or fan appeal? There are very few GM cars in AI. I don't think this will help bring in more. I've belielved that previous rulings have been made to keep the formula simple. Although I don't feel this is a huge deal. It doesn't seem to fit the model. This will lead to more rules and further clarifications. The current rules are not iron clad, but I have always heard that the intent of the series and any particular rule will win out in the end. This could lead to further picking apart of the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pederb Posted May 7, 2007 Share Posted May 7, 2007 PS LS1 is even allowed in CMC 2, right Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Posted May 7, 2007 Share Posted May 7, 2007 PS LS1 is even allowed in CMC 2, right Yep, but only in an f-body. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racercosmo Posted May 7, 2007 Share Posted May 7, 2007 Rumor, no more!Pat Lindsey AI #117 came to Willow Springs with a LS1 in his Fox Body. Did pretty well, I think he even won Sundays race I guess that ball was tossed down the slippery slope already then huh? Or as was said in the Foreign Legion, "the camel's nose is under the tent flap." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizlbits Posted May 8, 2007 Share Posted May 8, 2007 Oh no, A Cambird legal motor in Mustang, oh the horror! Once again, we are focusing on the cars and not the drivers. Exactly what is the advantage? Do they get a power to weight advantage? Not as I remember. I hope no one in AI puts a ford 9 inch rear end in a Chevy (Nascar- cough, cough) I think we tend to forget the focus of close racing on the track. That is what people want to watch. Frankly spectators don't give a crap what motor is in the car. If you haven't figured it out, I don't see a legal Cambird motor in a Mustang as a slipery slope. Maybe I am missing something in the rules. Last time I checked the rules were based on keeping the playing field level by focusing on power to weight, same tires, similar wheelbase & track width etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Matt Posted May 8, 2007 Share Posted May 8, 2007 I don't think the argument is specifically about a competitive advantage; the slippery slope is in reference to deviation from what is perceived to have been an original "spirit and intent" of the class, whatever that is. I'm not sure anybody can even answer that question at this point. Since you brought up NASCAR, engine brand is the last vestige of manufacturer identity in that series. Frankly, I do think brand identity is important to a large segment of fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Algozine Posted May 8, 2007 Share Posted May 8, 2007 Matt, well said. There have been decisions made in the past to eliminate modifications, not because it was an overwhelming advantage, but because it was deemed detrimental to the series and what it may have lead too, along with the policing that it would have required. I suggest that this is similiar. Which "production" (and that term can mean many things) engines are going to be permitted and in what cars? Surely an all aluminum engine is a weight advantage. What about an all aluminum V6? No, I don't see this as the series dominator, but whats the point to allowing it? On more than one instance, I have heard AI refered to in publications as the modern Trans Am from the 60's, it has even been promoted that way. I think many agree that there is a certain coolness and appeal to many for that very reason. How does this engine deal help the series? More Mustangs, that's exatly what we don't need. This minimizes one of the GM car's advantages. Look beyond the few cars that have performed this engine swap and think about how it may effect the series in 3-5 years if many more AI cars have mixed matched engines. Maybe the big guys in Detroit would be squaring off again and do battle in our lowly little series, that may become very popular in the next few years. The Camaro and Challenger are coming back. Road courses are popping up all over the country in huge numbers. HPDE's are taking off. Racing is moving into the mainstream of sports (thanks nascar). Performance cars are as popular as they have ever been. No, the casual fan is not going to know or care, but the race enthusiast (sp) may be miffed, and perhaps perspective AI racers will find it less interesting. What about growing the series? Many guys like to idnetify with their brand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizlbits Posted May 8, 2007 Share Posted May 8, 2007 Brand identitiy to me is not a factor. I personally hate Fords, but hey, they are fun to race and have a TON of aftermarket parts available (fairly) cheap. I guess the lower IQ people (NASCAR fans) can argue brand supremacy all they want. It is just not my thing. Fine go ahead and argue which AI car is better. When was the last Firebird that came off the production line again? Kind of pointless to argue isn't it? I still would rather argue who is a better racer, and who pulled off a slicker move on the track, etc; but fine lets keep arguing supremeacy of 10 year old models which any one of them would get their butt kicked by a similar hp BMW, Porsche or even (cough cough) Corvette. Sorry for sugar coating it. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKnight Posted May 8, 2007 Share Posted May 8, 2007 I'm not against what Pat's done, or the concept in general, but I think that it does create the best of both worlds: the Mustang chassis with its superior (to the Camaro / Firebird) aftermarket support mated to a reliable engine. Chris and I are always hoping to see more F-Body folks out there, but if they can buy a track Mustang with Griggs or MM bits and drop an LS1 in there, then it's a no brainer. Of course, there are still purists out there that will be Ford or Chevy, and won't even entertain such a notion. But eventually I think economics trumps loyalty. This ain't the Pat Lindsay thread (I hope I got the right vowel in the second syllable - I can't keep 'em straight), but Oy Vey! that is one nice ride! Big up to Pat for putting together a beautiful car. Well, except for the orange key in the trunk lock.... Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Matt Posted May 8, 2007 Share Posted May 8, 2007 Considering the investments people make in racing in this class, I don't think it's unreasonable that there would be some questions about its future direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Algozine Posted May 8, 2007 Share Posted May 8, 2007 Just to clarify, my comments are in no way directed toward Pat. I'm not commenting about him or his car, just the engine issue that has resulted. As I read the rules, he's perfectly legal. I'm struggling with the intend of some rules and what effects this may have. Again, there are several rules in AI that can be inturpreted (sp,again) several ways. This can set a presedent, and may require further clarifications on this and other issues. Chris, tell us what your thinking. Don't hold back. Pass the sugar,please Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lsandine Posted May 8, 2007 Share Posted May 8, 2007 I remember a couple years back seeing this car at Road America and it had a Buick V6 engine I believe. http://www.midcoastperformance.com/index.cfm?template=pa&form_pa_view=1&pa_id=1317 I personally thought it was a very well done build and still thought of the car as a Mustang when the hood was closed. I thought it was pretty cool that any engine could be used in this American Iron series and he went with a V6 as it put out plenty of power and the front of the engine was nearer then firewall than a V8. I do not have a dog in the fight really as do not race in AI. But as a spectator I would say the clean close racing is what I find interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nape Posted May 8, 2007 Share Posted May 8, 2007 I'm of the opinion that only die hard fans (yeah, I know, what fans) will continue to follow a series that doesn't have brand identity. Take any open wheel sanctioning body as an example. WTF is a Lola Ford Cosworth? At that point you have to start promoting drivers (Danica) for attention. Good luck doing that at our level. Call me a hillbilly, but I'll keep rooting for my COT with a Chevy sticker package on it on Sunday. Hell, even Ford or Dodge. Anyone but Toyota. Anyway, my point is that even though NASCAR "bodies" are just a sticker package, they still have brand identity. We're already at Griggs Mustangs, do we want to take it further to Griggs Mustang GM-Gen IV? I'll keep driving my Pontiac Firebird with a motor it could have had straight off the assembly line. [RANT] On a final note, why don't you Ford guys just build a GM in the first place then? You won't have to spend $5k+ fixing the crap geometry and you'll get the reliable drivetrain you want (except for the rearend...). Oh, that's right, brand loyalty... [/RANT] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizlbits Posted May 8, 2007 Share Posted May 8, 2007 Hell, even Ford or Dodge. Anyone but Toyota. Ha! Your rooting against the ONLY one of them that is built IN THE UNITED STATES! You might be a....... nevermind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white_2kgt Posted May 8, 2007 Share Posted May 8, 2007 I don't think the argument is specifically about a competitive advantage; the slippery slope is in reference to deviation from what is perceived to have been an original "spirit and intent" of the class, whatever that is. I'm not sure anybody can even answer that question at this point. Since you brought up NASCAR, engine brand is the last vestige of manufacturer identity in that series. Frankly, I do think brand identity is important to a large segment of fans. You seem to be the most outspoken person against allowing the Chevy engine in a Ford in AI, just let me remind you that we are only talking about American Iron, not Camaro Mustang Challenge. When was the last AI race you entered? What dog do you have in this fight? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizlbits Posted May 8, 2007 Share Posted May 8, 2007 I have to say, and this thread is not the first place I have seen it, but I REALLY love it when people tell JWL what the spirit and intent of the rules are. I laugh inside every time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Matt Posted May 8, 2007 Share Posted May 8, 2007 First off, CMC is a PART of American Iron, and second, I'm one of those elusive "fans" of the claas. And third, I've been on the fence for several years about the possibility of stepping up to AI, which I'd only do if I was comfortable with the state of the rules. So those are my "dogs." Who are you anyway? Don't recall seeing you at the Nationals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swhiteh3 Posted May 8, 2007 Share Posted May 8, 2007 I'm in complete agreement with Matt here. I'm buying a new motor this winter, so if it's allowed, and it's lighter, I may buy the LS1... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts