LS-1 in a Mustang rumor?

[swhiteh3]

Thanks Peder - I understand that aftermarket dry-sumps are not allowed, I was just wondering how that rule would be interpretted if someone wanted to run an OEM dry-sump application.

 

Is an LS2 really as heavy as a SBF? Considering it has an aluminum block (compared to iron in a SBF), and a plastic intake manifold (compared to an aluminum one in a SBF), where does all the extra weight in an LS2 come from?

 

Why would you pick an LS2 Cosmo? I only know what I've read in the last 30 minutes, but it seems like I'd much rather have an LS6, with an extra 500rpm of capability. (Sure you can remove the limiter, but if the OEM gives it 500rpm more redline, then it's very likely it has better parts and better breathing to actually support that 500rpm.)

[D Algozine]

One more thing...

 

That is at least 2 things, maybe more.

 

The pointless comment refered more to the fact that the swap is legal now. The odds of it EVER being illegal is about 1,000,000 to one. The series directors are extremely hesitant to change rules after the fact on a major change as this would be. Grandfathering cars because of a rule change does not work so that is poison also. So like it or not, 1. It's legal 2. It is most likely here to stay for a very long time.

 

Can we now focus on the actual "racing" part again, please? So Patrick, how did that car run anyway? Any problems with the swap itself?

 

Well, I thought I was done, but keeping quiet has never been storng point.

 

Chris N. , excellent statements. It would be good to have some of yours and my statements explained. The whole 60's batlles for bragging rights, goes out the window with this engine swap. Anyone ever here of a Hemi, Rat motor, The terminator, Boss? Who knows what cars these engines came from? Muscle cars are all about the engine and stlying. Everything else about them sucks. Swapping out engines and they lose there identity.

 

Chris G., If we are to take the existing engine rule as it is currently written, then engine choice is wide open. Anything we want except aftermarket aluminum blocks, and Ford Motorsports aluminum block. I think anyone with half a brain can figure out that the full "intend" of the rule is not represented as it is currently written. That leaves a huge selection, including the aluminum v6's in min-vans, any race block, stock or aftermarket, and any exotic anyone can dream up. The point is the rule is going to be tightened up, either now or very soon. Why not tighten it up and eliminate the mixed manufacturer engine swaps?

As Chris N. and I have asked, if in fact it is going to remain legal, then Why?

Was it in oversight, or just something that no one has taken advantage of. Anyone can nit pick the existing rules and make cases for some significant deviations from the "intend" as most of us understand it.

[King Matt]

So what is the official criteria for engine swaps? The LS7 (505hp 7.0L dry sump) did not come in any eligible model GM vehicles, so is that allowed? Is it any factory-offered crate engine? I guess that would mean you can run a Ford GT engine or a GM ZZ 572 big-block.

[swhiteh3]

It sounds to me like any GM crate engine would allowed, so long as it has:

 

(1) A block that was used at any point in any OEM application.

(2) Is wet-sump.

 

Seems like the Z06 engine would be legal if converted to wet-sump - not that I think that's a good idea....

[D Algozine]

7.11 Engine

7.11.1 AI cars may not use non-OEM aluminum engine blocks. Examples of excluded engine blocks would be the World Products or Ford Motorsports aluminum blocks. This does not preclude the use of factory equipped aluminum blocks such as the 4.6 Ford or GM LS1. Later model engines may be installed into earlier model cars and vice versa.

7.11.2 AIX engine blocks are unrestricted.

7.11.3 AI vehicles may not use dry-sump oiling systems

.

 

Here is the engine section. It does not say that blocks have to be OEM, or that they have to be offered in an approved AI car.

You just can't use non-OEM aluminum blocks.

[King Matt]

Any OEM application, huh? That's cool, because GM built Corvettes and Camaros back in the late 60s with all-aluminum big-blocks, so those block are legal too, and GM has put them back in production recently. Maybe if I win the lottery I will build a replica Can-Am big-block and run my Fox body in AIX.

 

edit: Strike AIX. I will detune it and run AI.

[Sidney]

I understand the reason behind running an all aluminum engine for the weight savings, but my question is "Why can't a Ford 351 be built as reliable and cheap as a 350 SBC?"

 

Sidney Franklin

AI #64

[Pat L.]

Guys, the car is running great. We had a cap that blew off the heater core dist. block during Saturday's race, but that was a quick fix and we were able to run very well Sunday; had a great race with Andy Bowman.

 

Quick details: I bought my LS1 crate motor from Hawaii racing for ~3250 (discount since it was the last one). They didn't give us any info on the motor, but through our investigatory skillz, we determined it was an '02 corvette motor. The GM crate motors come with manifold, throttle body, water pump/pulley, balancer (although we upgraded) and coils/plugs. I sourced a PS pump similar to the ones used on the ARCA cars and an alternator & bracket kit from a hot rod shop. Troy Stacy at S&S Fabrication built the motor mounts, headers and water hoses for the swap. We put Carbon valve covers on because they look pimpy (too bad they're leaking) and Troy built an air intake which sucks from the radiator shroud. Christian Miller at 034 Motorsports sold us one of their ECU's and gave us a few pointers. We did extremely minor valvetrain upgrades from Comp Cams (retainers and pushrods) so we can rev the stocker LS1 to 7k if we need to get some extra mph. We spent a full day on the dyno getting the A/F and driveability just right and the motor makes, and Peder please help me out here, 306/326 to the rollers. That's about 20lbs. more torque than the Ford that was in it and the same hp. While we didn't do any direct weight comparison to the motors, it appears that the swap took just under 40lbs. off the nose. I'm actually expecting to see some sort of corner exit understeer problem, but it didn't crop up at Willow.

 

Scott, re: the headers on the driver's side. Troy built the rear two primary tubes to go around the steering shaft. Also, if you're running AIX you can go the dry sump route, but the LS7 motors are big coin.

 

Another thing I'd like to point out is that the factory Ford aluminum blocks are an option for AI guys looking to take weight off the nose. Seems some folks keep forgetting that option. The 4.6 might not make the torque though without a little warming over.

 

Also, I'd like to offer that the Griggs guys really don't care what motor powers their chassis to a competitive finish. I'd like to hear from Steeda, MM, JBA, Agent47 and others who are big supporters of the series.

[D Algozine]

Patrick,

Excellent info, thanks for sharing the details.

[gr42ai]

I can’t keep quite any longer, I am not going to discuss the racing side of the discussion but someone brought the aftermarket.

 

Lets say you can afford a Shelby GT500, great car but we all know it is a pig. So you go down to you dealer and buy a base Mustang for 20k and go strait to GRSMMS Racing and tell them you want there top of the line package. They install their full chassis kit, big brakes, tires and wheels, seats and a LS7 crate motor and you write them a check for 40k. What you have when you drive away is a car with over 500hp, weighs around 450lbs less then a GT500 and would probably give a Z06 a run for its money.

 

Is this package out there, no, but should it be, yes, can it be done for this price maybe. An LS7 crate motor is $13,000 the ECU is $250.00, that leaves $26,750 for the suspension and labor. If this is a one-time deal it can’t be done for that price but if the shop has this set up like a production run it should be possible. Not to mention all of the stock Mustang part that can be sold to a salvage yard. These are just my thoughts since the aftermarket was brought in to this discussion.

 

One more thing how many 32 Ford Hot Rods are out there with SBC motors in them, putting a Chevy in a Ford has been going on as long as I can remember.

 

Guy

[racercosmo]

Scott, I chose an LS2 because I know that a complete crate engine can be had for $5600 ready to run. I am nolt sure if an LS6 is still available.

[Rustic]

 

Is this package out there, no, but should it be, yes, can it be done for this price maybe. An LS7 crate motor is $13,000 the ECU is $250.00, that leaves $26,750 for the suspension and labor. If this is a one-time deal it can’t be done for that price but if the shop has this set up like a production run it should be possible. Not to mention all of the stock Mustang part that can be sold to a salvage yard. These are just my thoughts since the aftermarket was brought in to this discussion.

 

Guy

Your right, that package isn't out there... and it never will be because there is no one out there to buy it (except for maybe a few road racers in this group). I think you have made my point very well as to why the aftermarket will not like this in the long run. If a Chevy guy wants that package he buys the ZO6.... if you're the avarage Ford fan you are NOT going to spend that kind of money to have a chevy motor in your new car!!!!

 

Custom shops are custom shops... but the real aftermarket has to have volume to survive. This combo will NEVER be popular on the street, at the drag strip or even at car shows. And I can't think of any other sanctioning body that would allow such a car to compete. I think NHRA or IHRA may have an "open" bracket racing class... where they don't care what you run... but that's about it. And so it follows that if the car isn't leagal to compete anywhere, the parts won't sell.

 

One more thing... or maybe two

Aren't you guys happy now that you listened to all my griping about the Torque rule when that was being worked on a couple of years ago. If the Ford guys had gotten their way you wouldn't be able to use that extra Torque the chevy motors put out.

I'm not sure if I'm happy about that now or not?!?!?!

[swhiteh3]

Scott, I chose an LS2 because I know that a complete crate engine can be had for $5600 ready to run. I am nolt sure if an LS6 is still available.

Care to expand on that? For a price that cheap, I might be willing to sacrifice the 500RPM.

[Rustic]

http://paceperformance.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=83801

 

Pace sells a lot of crate engines....

[nape]

Scott, I chose an LS2 because I know that a complete crate engine can be had for $5600 ready to run. I am nolt sure if an LS6 is still available.

Care to expand on that? For a price that cheap, I might be willing to sacrifice the 500RPM.

 

For that price? You guys must be nuts to spend that money to make AI power. If the main benefit of running a Chevy motor in your Ford is cost containment on your motor, you can make reliable AI power out of a SBC for $2000.

 

Do you guys just like to spend money or something? Don't get me wrong, I have fun out there, but if I was spending that money I'd go buy a dirt mod and race for cash instead of plastic trophies and "Winner" stickers...

 

To butcher a quote from Smokey Yunick, "Load the wagon boys, the mule's blind."

[racercosmo]

Scoggin Dickey does have LS6 available for $6200.

[Raybob9289]

I gotta put in my .02 cents.

This Chevy motor into Ford Mustang thing all though now deemed legal by JWL is BullSh*t. If the FoMoCo guys gotta deal with crappy motors thats only fair since us GM guys gotta deal with giant fat bodys. I think I can speak for all 5 F-body AI guys in the US by saying our Camaro's & Chickens are heavy but at least we got the best V8 ever built in them.

I thought the SBC vs. SBF helped level the playing field and just when I got my 96 Camaro down to a competitive weight I see that the Fords want to officially make AI into spec Mustang. I am bustin my balls to show

GM guys they can be competitive against the almighty fox body. Well why would anybody want to build a F-body when they could just do a fox body and shove a LS1 in it and have no weight issues to work out.

With all due respect I am not in favor of this and it is not good for the class. One of the reasons I left SCCA A sedan was every rule went Fords way. If indeed the powers that be want a equal amout of competitors from all the big 3 this is not the way to do it.

 

"American Ironâ„¢ is a race series that calls to mind the legendary battles of the 1960's when champions competed against each other to win stoplight and drive-in bragging rights for their brand of choice."

[Grizlbits]

"American Ironâ„¢ is a race series that calls to mind the legendary battles of the 1960's when champions competed against each other to win stoplight and drive-in bragging rights for their brand of choice."

 

My brand of choice would be a Mustang, with a Chevy motor.

[white_2kgt]

"American Ironâ„¢ is a race series that calls to mind the legendary battles of the 1960's when champions competed against each other to win stoplight and drive-in bragging rights for their brand of choice."

 

My brand of choice would be a Mustang, with a Chevy motor.

 

Mustmaro? Camstang? Firestang? What should we call it?

[Grizlbits]

Mustmaro? Camstang? Firestang? What should we call it?

 

Why don't we make it sound "green" and call it a hybrid?

[D Algozine]

The level that we tear these cars down to is pretty extreme. The only thing left is the exterior look and I thought the engines. If we're going to swap in any power plant, why not buy a ASC (American stock car Challenge). The initial cost is far less. The parts are cheaper, more readily available, and hold up better. Plus, they are much easier to work on. Besides, they already spec the invinsible SBC.

[King Matt]

Unfortunately, it looks like this is a done deal, but decisions like this are the type of thing that kills racing classes, and it does not appear the implications of this one were well thought out in advance.

[Grizlbits]

Unfortunately, it looks like this is a done deal, but decisions like this are the type of thing that kills racing classes, and it does not appear the implications of this one were well thought out in advance.

 

Oh God, another class killer, just like the 05 Mustang

[King Matt]

Chris, it's not the specific rule, it's the decision-making process and the fact that there does not appear to be a long-term plan or vision for the class. This decision was at the very least a major marketing blunder, regardless of the impact it may or may not have on competition.

[Grizlbits]

"major marketing blunder"

 

You guys keep focusing on the swap, and ignore that the power to weight still guides whatever you have in the car. Keep ignoring the RACING, CLOSE BATTLES ON THE TRACK, and such, because people only care about what is under the hood. Maybe we should forget the racing all together and just have a F*in car show instead. Then we can check to make sure all the serial numbers match.

 

Edit: spelling

Edited May 10, 2007 by Guest