Why windows down on the track?

[Warpedcow]

Forgive me if there was already a thread on this, I searched and did not find any related discussion...

 

So WHY do we have to run windows down during HPDEs? Yes, they tell you it is so they can pull you out of your car if it is on fire and you're unconscious or otherwise unable to get yourself out of the car. To me this sounds about as reasonable as staying indoors whenever it's cloudy so that you wont ever be hit by lightning.

 

Reasons why I like tracking with windows up (that's what most clubs do at BIR):

1. Less noise to distract the driver from doing an already difficult job.

2. I have curtain airbags that are only effective if the window is up.

3. Will keep my body inside the car if I crash/roll. (This is the official reason they state at BIR since it's such a fast track).

4. If another car kicks up a rock, it could hit me with my window down.

5. I dont want my leather interior getting soaked in the rain.

6. Almost impossible to communicate with an instructor with windows down on a fast track.

... I could go on.

 

I do agree there are plusses and minuses to both sides of the issue. However, it should be driver's (car occupant's) choice, as only the driver/occupants are affected by whatever they choose to do with their windows.

[rrrracer]

Glass used on side windows is not the same safety glass used on windshields (on most cars). When it breaks, it shatters, sending sharp glass shards everywhere. So if it's rolled down, the door contains most if not all of this.

[kbrew8991]

if your instructor doesn't have a communicator (the NADY brand is $40 shipped, so no excuses IMO) politely ask the Chief Instructor for a new one. You paid to have an instructor that can help you, and if you can't learn by hand signals alone.....

 

and as I understand it, it aids in extraction and fire response.... if you're really concerned about the other potential safety items, a cage, nets, harnesses may be in order

 

It is a NASA rule iirc, but if there is enough evidence to go the other way we're all reasonable people here and I'm sure things may change If you can dig up some documentation on the airbag thing you might stand a chance to get a waiver for your particular car as well.

 

and lastly, IMO, you can tell more about whats going on with the car with the windows down, as you can hear your tires and brakes easier... but thats just my experience there

[beerkat]

It is very hard to put your arm out the window to signal some one to pass if the window is up.

[Warpedcow]

Glass used on side windows is not the same safety glass used on windshields (on most cars). When it breaks, it shatters, sending sharp glass shards everywhere. So if it's rolled down, the door contains most if not all of this.

 

I have laminated glass all around, it wont shatter even if you whack it with a crowbar.

 

It is very hard to put your arm out the window to signal some one to pass if the window is up.

 

I can use blinkers or in an in car wave to signal passes (you can see just fine through my back window). Almost all clubs run windows up at BIR and these other methods of signalling work just fine.

 

and as I understand it, it aids in extraction and fire response.... if you're really concerned about the other potential safety items, a cage, nets, harnesses may be in order

 

Cage, nets, harnesses (and the new seats they would require) aren't an option in my daily driver that I track. I have a feeling nets and a cage/roll bar would be impossible to mount without interfering with the side and curtain airbags.

 

It is a NASA rule iirc, but if there is enough evidence to go the other way we're all reasonable people here and I'm sure things may change If you can dig up some documentation on the airbag thing you might stand a chance to get a waiver for your particular car as well.

 

I'm hoping this discussion will attract the attention of the right people such that drivers will be given the option to run whichever way they prefer in the future.

 

and lastly, IMO, you can tell more about whats going on with the car with the windows down, as you can hear your tires and brakes easier... but thats just my experience there

 

I dunno, I can hear my tires squeal fine with the windows up... my brakes are silent either way (Hawk HPS pads).

[white_2kgt]

I can use blinkers or in an in car wave to signal passes (you can see just fine through my back window). Almost all clubs run windows up at BIR and these other methods of signalling work just fine.

 

When I'm behind you I'm not looking for your blinkers, many race cars don't have blinkers and they run in HPDE groups sometimes. Also I'm not looking in your back window for your hand, I might mistake your instructors hand gestures on how to turn in/etc for a point by. I want a quick point to the left or over the roof, if I'm behind you longer to think to look for a blinker or hand in window you should be getting that pretty blue flag.

 

What I am looking for your FINGER pointing straight to the left or over the roof. Don't expect that to change since many, many clubs all over the country do this, it's universal.

[Jim P.]

When I'm behind you I'm not looking for your blinkers, many race cars don't have blinkers and they run in HPDE groups sometimes. Also I'm not looking in your back window for your hand, I might mistake your instructors hand gestures on how to turn in/etc for a point by. I want a quick point to the left or over the roof, if I'm behind you longer to think to look for a blinker or hand in window you should be getting that pretty blue flag.

 

What I am looking for your FINGER pointing straight to the left or over the roof. Don't expect that to change since many, many clubs all over the country do this, it's universal.

 

I tend to agree, a finger is a clear indicator, a turn signal can be accidently tripped by flailing with a new driver. I'd hate to see a driver get passed at an in-opportune moment because his/her blinker was on...

 

Funny anecdote

We had a PT race-prepped Rx8 race with us in the Lightning race group at Rockingham this last month and somehow during the first lap his blinker was tripped - he ran the whole race with the left blinker on, you can imagine the jokes that arose after 10 laps - so even racecars can have blinkers but they are not always on at the right moment...

[white_2kgt]

Funny anecdote

We had a PT race-prepped Rx8 race with us in the Lightning race group at Rockingham this last month and somehow during the first lap his blinker was tripped - he ran the whole race with the left blinker on, you can imagine the jokes that arose after 10 laps - so even racecars can have blinkers but they are not always on at the right moment...

 

lol, I was at WGI last year and a car blew up in front of me, entire track covered in smoke, not knowing if the cars behind me could see me or not I hit the flashers, well after I got though the smoke and didn't hit the poor fella I forgot to turn off the blinkers. After 10 laps or so the session ended and the event coordinator met me at the pit in and asked why I was running w/ my flashers on, lol

Good think we weren't using blinkers for passing signals, I'd have had people passing me on both sides!!

[BrianZ]

You have to remeber that these rules cover ALL cars that come out and HPDE. There is one set of rules for all cars. If you one set of rules for every diffrent car it would be difficult to enforce (not saying it will not happen in the future).

 

So with that being said, your car *may* be safer if you leave the windows up, but the rules currently say they need to be down (I would assume its becouse most other cars out there have tempered glass in the doors). You can talk to the tech steward at the track and see if he will be ok with leaving the windows up. Just have to remeber the flaggers, race control, and the saftey crew are not used to seeing the window up and may black flag you.

[99HOSS]

Out here it's windows down, rain or shine or snow.

 

This is so a pass with a point by can be executed. Period.

 

It has nothing to do with extracations or any possible reason listed above.

[getfast]

Funny anecdote

 

Another funny anecdote

 

Last year at Summit I instructed a guy in a right-hand-drive japanese spec Subaru Impreza STi. We had to coordinate our passing signals very carefully because drivers behind were waiting for a signal from the left side of the car, not the right side! It worked out fine after a bit of practice, but I know there were at least a few cars behind us at first... waiting for the driver to signal instead of the instructor (even though in that car, the instructor was in the usual driver's seat.)

 

PS- the HPDE windows-down rule is stated on line 6.2.1 of the CCR so I'm not sure why we are even having this discussion

 

Jon

[kbrew8991]

Jon, yeah its in the rules... I think the discussion is more about changing the rules...

[getfast]

Changing the rules to make clear HPDE passing signals more difficult to spot? Why?

 

Jon

Edited April 24, 2007 by Guest

[kbrew8991]

just trying to help out the O.P.

[UHSAE]

Having worked as a corner worker you get to thinking how you would react if a car flipped or caught fire etc, lots of what-if's.

 

If a car catches fire out there, it's our job to run to the car and put it out make sure the driver's ok and safe, or if it's really out of control, get the driver out ASAP. I would imagine most of the time, when cars catch fire the driver gets the "O sh!t" face and piles out of the car as fast as he can. But what if the car is upside down and on fire?? Could you really expect a completely disoriented and likely hurt HPDE driver to be able to find his way out of an upside-down burning car?

 

That puts a HUGE responsibility on the corner workers to be there very quickly with a fire extinguisher, break a window and drag an injured driver out of the car.

 

I think it's a good rule, and it needs to stay that way.

[getfast]

Understood, Ken. It was a legitimate question, but I don't think he's gonna like the answer.

 

Jon

[jon dawes]

i'm a total NEWB and have not even done an event yet, but i see both sides of the coin. i too have leather seats and curtain air bags, but i guess like everybody else i'd feel like i could hear better if the window were down. part of me says "rules shmules" but the other part says "awe horsesh!t, they're there for a reason and somebody probably thought about it more than i did, so what the hell I'll clean the leather and hope that I won't need the curtain bags anyways". hope to meet everybody sometime in the next year! my first autocross is may 5 to try it out, then i'll sign up for an HPDE.

[getfast]

1) The "airbag only works with windows up" concern would be just as much of an issue on a nice spring day at the beach. If you own a car like this and have ever put your windows down while driving on the street, you have already taken the risk so it should be no problem to do the same on the track (where, at least, everyone is pointed in the same direction with a similar mindset and nobody's on a cellphone while piloting an SUV full of screaming kids.)

 

2) If the possibility of damaging your leather interior is really an issue, find another car to track because you're gonna freak when you see what your front bumper cover looks like after some HPDE's (unless you cover it with tape or vinyl, of course.)

 

3) As others have said, the sound of the tires and the ability to be yanked from the car in an emergency are secondary benefits. The primary benefit is being able to quickly and clearly give a universally understood passing signal to the driver of the rapidly-approaching-from-behind Z06, 911, Miata, or whatever else. Holding up faster traffic is an excellent way to get black-flagged and/or prompt some lectures from (whoops, I mean "discussions with") your instructor.

 

4) Your home NASA region doesn't have an autocross on May 5, we have a HPDE. Are you cheating on us?

 

Hahahahaha,

 

Jon

[jon dawes]

i'm so ashamed. . .you caught me in bed with another region! i'm not sorted out yet with my HPDE insurance, so i'm not ready to get her up to speed on a proper track. i figure whatever happens with autocross [knock on wood] i can take care of myself whereas high speed anything could be "beyond my means" costly. . . i know, i know, if you're not willing to push if off a cliff don't track it. i've heard it all and am looking into other options [crown vic police interceptors, etc.]. but thanks for all the good ad-vice

[nasaregistrar]

Having worked as a corner worker you get to thinking how you would react if a car flipped or caught fire etc, lots of what-if's.

 

If a car catches fire out there, it's our job to run to the car and put it out make sure the driver's ok and safe, or if it's really out of control, get the driver out ASAP. I would imagine most of the time, when cars catch fire the driver gets the "O sh!t" face and piles out of the car as fast as he can. But what if the car is upside down and on fire?? Could you really expect a completely disoriented and likely hurt HPDE driver to be able to find his way out of an upside-down burning car?

 

That puts a HUGE responsibility on the corner workers to be there very quickly with a fire extinguisher, break a window and drag an injured driver out of the car.

 

I think it's a good rule, and it needs to stay that way.

Not to change the subject but where were you trained as a corner worker?

did you go to crash and burn school? I am not saying you are wrong but going on a hot track is very dangerous as is firefighting without the proper gear. That said it is likely that if my station was sufficiently manned and flags were displayed, I would respond to a car on fire making sure that EV was in emergency mode and rolling via radio.

[Warpedcow]

I can use blinkers or in an in car wave to signal passes (you can see just fine through my back window). Almost all clubs run windows up at BIR and these other methods of signalling work just fine.

 

When I'm behind you I'm not looking for your blinkers, many race cars don't have blinkers and they run in HPDE groups sometimes. Also I'm not looking in your back window for your hand, I might mistake your instructors hand gestures on how to turn in/etc for a point by.

 

If a blinker is an expected passing signal, you WOULD be looking for it. My blinkers are very bright, and are amber, not red, so they would never be confused for brake lights. Some at BIR use blinkers as a passing signal since most clubs at BIR do run windows up. It works just fine, I think it's far easier to see a blinker than a hand signal. If you dont have blinkers you're probably in a race car where a hand signal is the only option, and thats fine too. Why not use both?

 

I tend to agree, a finger is a clear indicator, a turn signal can be accidently tripped by flailing with a new driver. I'd hate to see a driver get passed at an in-opportune moment because his/her blinker was on...

 

If passing zones are only on the straights, is it really likely a blinker is gonna be bumped on on a straight? Obviously if a blinker goes on in a non-passing zone, you assume it is an accident. If you're running windows up you will HEAR your blinker and realize you bumped it. If you're checking your guages regularly (as you should on the longer straights) you'll see a visual indicator if a blinker is on by accident. I just don't see this being a big problem or one that occurs more than maybe once a weekend.

 

You have to remeber that these rules cover ALL cars that come out and HPDE. There is one set of rules for all cars. If you one set of rules for every diffrent car it would be difficult to enforce (not saying it will not happen in the future).

 

I understand, but why is it even a rule? Why not let cars run whichever way they want? Let a turn signal be another passing signal besides the hand wave. Heck, turn signals work as passing signals on public roads just fine. Very easy to see. Plus, you only have to take one finger off the wheel to hit a turn signal, much safer than waving your whole arm out the window.

 

So with that being said, your car *may* be safer if you leave the windows up, but the rules currently say they need to be down (I would assume its becouse most other cars out there have tempered glass in the doors). You can talk to the tech steward at the track and see if he will be ok with leaving the windows up. Just have to remeber the flaggers, race control, and the saftey crew are not used to seeing the window up and may black flag you.

 

I'll definitely try to get an exception for myself at my next NASA event... I'd rather just have the silly rule changed/removed

 

Changing the rules to make clear HPDE passing signals more difficult to spot? Why?

 

Because a turn signal is actually far easier to see than a hand wave? Do you hand wave on your way to and from the track in lieu of turn signals?

 

It's much easier to signal a point by to multiple cars with turn signals. Just leave it on while cars are passing and turn it off when you want the passing to stop. Much safer than waving all the way down a long straight, with only one hand on the wheel.

 

How to you steer, shift, and signal a point by at the same time with only two hands? No problem if you use a turn signal.

 

Having worked as a corner worker you get to thinking how you would react if a car flipped or caught fire etc, lots of what-if's.

 

If a car catches fire out there, it's our job to run to the car and put it out make sure the driver's ok and safe, or if it's really out of control, get the driver out ASAP. I would imagine most of the time, when cars catch fire the driver gets the "O sh!t" face and piles out of the car as fast as he can. But what if the car is upside down and on fire?? Could you really expect a completely disoriented and likely hurt HPDE driver to be able to find his way out of an upside-down burning car?

 

That puts a HUGE responsibility on the corner workers to be there very quickly with a fire extinguisher, break a window and drag an injured driver out of the car.

 

You make a good point. Lets just say I'm not gonna hold it against anyone if I'm burned to death trapped in my car because a corner worker couldn't bust through my laminated glass.

 

Out of curiousity, how many people in a NASA HPDE have needed to be pulled out the window of their car. In other words, they were incapacitated, unable to open the door, AND the car was also on fire (or some other situation needing a quick evacuation). Has this EVER happened?

 

1) The "airbag only works with windows up" concern would be just as much of an issue on a nice spring day at the beach. If you own a car like this and have ever put your windows down while driving on the street, you have already taken the risk so it should be no problem to do the same on the track (where, at least, everyone is pointed in the same direction with a similar mindset and nobody's on a cellphone while piloting an SUV full of screaming kids.)

 

On a nice spring day on the beach (or any other time), I can choose to put my window up or down, based on a plethora of risks/rewards that my brain processes. Why can I not do the same on the track?

 

2) If the possibility of damaging your leather interior is really an issue, find another car to track because you're gonna freak when you see what your front bumper cover looks like after some HPDE's (unless you cover it with tape or vinyl, of course.)

 

My living arrangements are currently such that I can only own one car. I'm sure I'm not the only person in such a situation. I already have a ton of paint chips on the front of my car, most are actually from the highway though, not the track.

 

3) As others have said, the sound of the tires and the ability to be yanked from the car in an emergency are secondary benefits. The primary benefit is being able to quickly and clearly give a universally understood passing signal to the driver of the rapidly-approaching-from-behind Z06, 911, Miata, or whatever else. Holding up faster traffic is an excellent way to get black-flagged and/or prompt some lectures from (whoops, I mean "discussions with") your instructor.

 

Again, blinkers have worked great on public roads for decades. Why are they taboo on the track? Yes, I know some race cars dont have blinkers. I'm not saying make hand signals taboo. I'm saying let us use blinkers and windows up since that's easier for everyone involved.

 

Thanks everyone for the discussion. Please also try to see this from my perspective. My home track is BIR where most if not all clubs run windows up. My first SIX trackdays were there, with windows up at all events. Turn signals worked great for the clubs that do passing by contract. When I finally went to RA with NASA I was surprised as heck that they would insist on windows down, especially when there were a very few weak reasons why it was so. So yeah... I'm really surprised there aren't more people in my camp, so to speak.

[getfast]

+1 to Sean's post. I have attended two "crash & burn schools" and both times I came away with the feeling that it's ok to not run toward that burning or twisted car if you aren't 100% comfortable with it. Not that any cornerworker on a well-manned station necessarily wouldn't, just that it's not a required part of the job description. Advising control via radio and drivers on track via flags definitely is... as well as making sure control and EV know exactly what is happening in your piece of track real estate so they can do their jobs better.

 

I also learned that one 10lb fire extinguisher doesn't do diddly-squat to one significantly burning car. Plan to aim it at the driver instead...

 

Definitely off topic - sorry,

 

Jon

[getfast]

 

Again, blinkers have worked great on public roads for decades. Why are they taboo on the track? Yes, I know some race cars dont have blinkers. I'm not saying make hand signals taboo. I'm saying let us use blinkers and windows up since that's easier for everyone involved.

 

Thanks everyone for the discussion. Please also try to see this from my perspective. My home track is BIR where most if not all clubs run windows up. My first SIX trackdays were there, with windows up at all events. Turn signals worked great for the clubs that do passing by contract. When I finally went to RA with NASA I was surprised as heck that they would insist on windows down, especially when there were a very few weak reasons why it was so. So yeah... I'm really surprised there aren't more people in my camp, so to speak.

 

I completely understand and respect your position and don't mean to argue, but it is the opposite of what I'm used to. Out here in the mid-atlantic, it's been nothing but "windows down" for as long as I can remember, so us slowpokes can do our big forceful visible arm motions out the window to the faster traffic approaching from behind if necessary. Out here at least, changing that plan to include (or prefer) blinkers... would be a shock, and potentially dangerous. As the groups get faster the signals get smaller (in roadracing and TT we don't use passing signals at all) so it could be very understandable, but in our regular HPDE1-2-3 it would be extremely hard to adapt to IMHO.

 

Definitely bring it up with your nearest region's officials because it sounds like your area is different for a reason. It never hurts to make the same case you've made here... to the folks who make these decisions out there.

 

Good luck,

 

Jon

[NorrFam]

Barber in the summer with the windows up = cool comfort of the air conditioning.

 

Seems a bit touchy for a newby to want to change the rules before attending even the first event in a new organization.

 

Did an event with my mustang/magna flows, no head set and heard everything my instructor said. We just paid attention to what we said and heard. My 04 S-60 makes no where near the noise with the windows down.

 

Suggest you roll the window down and enjoy the sights and the sounds of the track.

[Warpedcow]

Seems a bit touchy for a newby to want to change the rules before attending even the first event in a new organization.

 

I did a NASA HPDE (2 days) at Road America last fall, that was my first windows down event and what made me really really hate it compared to the SIX windows up HPDEs I did with other clubs (like PCA) at Brainerd International Raceway. If I'm still a "newbie" after that, well tough beans.

 

Actually, how many of the posters in this thread have done a "windows up" HPDE? As I said, I've done both, and unless you all have done it both ways, doesn't that make YOU the newbies in this situation?

 

I'm not trying to be all bitchy about this, if I sound that way I'm sorry, chalk it up to not being able to express my opinion very well. I just think that changing it's rules would make NASA a better organization that would draw more people. If NASA doesn't want to accomodate those who would prefer to run windows up, that is their loss, there are lots of other organizations we can do HPDEs with.

Edited April 25, 2007 by Guest