Aero penalty for FFR...just a discussion starter

[rlogan]

I'll go ahead and start a thread on this now, it's going to come up eventually. We've been talking about it over on the Factory Five site and it will do no good to discuss there.

 

I know the rules were put in place to keep a car in check that really has no existing data to base rules on( other than the FFR spec series), but I don't think we're going to be able to compete in ST with that aero penalty. Currently I am about 3 seconds off pace in ST-1 and I am right at the HP limit and I have made almost every improvement you can for the FFR without hacking out the suspension and starting from scratch.

 

I have a G2X datalogger so I'll try to get some data back for max Gs braking corning acceleration with my setup and hopefully we can make some comparisons with other cars running in the series. I'd love to get some of that data out so we can see where the cars stand. I already have data w/o aero and after this weekend I will have some good data with aero.

 

The vettes,355s, etc...handle great right out of the box and already have great aero...then they can throw on whatever wing/tray they want with no penalty...and it just widens the gap. The fastest ST-1 car in our region has full carbon fiber body and Speed GT wing under-tray etc...there's no way a brick like an FFR can compete with that.

 

I'll let the others shime in...this is just a primer. Not complaining at all, I am just glad to have a class to race in with a non spec racer FFR.

 

I know people see the car as a "tube frame" car, but seriously, it's exactly that...with some mustang suspension pieces bolted on...it's by no means anything like a Panoz or anything of the sort.

 

Have a good one....

Ryan

[mpowers]

I support that train of thought.

Mike

[DanElam]

Yeah, I don't get how an open cock-pit aerodynamic brick gets a penalty for changing the splitter or adding a wing when a ground effects, through the body downforce car does not. We concluded that it is impossible to make a FFR car competitive in ST-1 which is why you see most in ST-2 where the penalty isn't magnified as much.

[claykos]

Again...I agree.

 

A Viper/Vette/Porsche already has a significant aero advantage over a cobra to begin with (especially in the drag department). They are allowed to add whatever mods they want with no penalty.

 

I know first hand about the drag difference between these cars and a Cobra. My car is an SU with a raw power to weight of ~4.5 (guessing at RWHP from crank HP). I have been on the track with ST1 viper comp coupe (505 FWHP and 3000 lbs) to my 640FWHP and 2500 lbs and past 120mph I cannot pull the vipers.

 

I also know first hand that aero really helps a lot on a cobra. But it helps a lot on any car. I dropped ~2.5 seconds with aero changes alone on at PIR (1::09.0 to 1:06.3). Yes huge improvement. I also have a friend with a PTA class Porsche 911 and he dropped nearly 2 seconds after installing a RSR rear wing and front fascia.

Edited April 26, 2007 by Guest

[DriverGT5]

Are you kidding me? You have Buffamante blowing the doors off ZO6 vettes by 3 seconds in ST-2 with no aero mods and you want points back? Fat chance. Sounds like you're just in the wrong ST class.

[claykos]

It's all the nut behind the wheel......

[DriverGT5]

It's all the nut behind the wheel......

 

And Jody Austin is one heck of a driver in a very well prepared car. A cobra going around Road Atlanta well into the 1:35's is a hard sell for unfair treatment. He was on par with several SU cars with very fast drivers.

[claykos]

I don't personally know any of the drivers involved and I don't mean to insult or disrespect anyone's skills. I do know that Tony B is a pro level driver and that can make a very big difference.

 

I also know that once you start adding power the aero makes a much bigger difference. At ST2 power a cobra could probably be competitive. At ST1 power I don't think it can be without some downforce.

[rlogan]

Exactly, I could care less if I have more power in my cars current trim, it's worthless...I'm losing ground in the turns....there's not a damn thing I can do about it either. On the straight it's pretty worthless too, I can pull ahead and I'll lose whatever gain I have by the end of the straight...I usually have to make any ground I can in braking zones, only chance I have because the car sure can't out handle much of anything.

 

I think it would be simple enough to compare some Gs using data acquisition. I am sure I can convince our ST-1 front runner to run a G2X for a few sessions, he's my team mate. All we need are max G values for some key speeds for braking, lateral, acceleration etc...

[claykos]

With aero and on slicks (used 18 inch radials) I see about 1.5-1.75 g's max lateral and 1.1-1.5 braking. Obviously this depends on the track, quality of the tires, etc. This is from a G2X.

[DriverGT5]

Exactly, I could care less if I have more power in my cars current trim, it's worthless...I'm losing ground in the turns....there's not a damn thing I can do about it either. On the straight it's pretty worthless too, I can pull ahead and I'll lose whatever gain I have by the end of the straight...I usually have to make any ground I can in braking zones, only chance I have because the car sure can't out handle much of anything.

 

I think it would be simple enough to compare some Gs using data acquisition. I am sure I can convince our ST-1 front runner to run a G2X for a few sessions, he's my team mate. All we need are max G values for some key speeds for braking, lateral, acceleration etc...

 

By your exact argument you should add the aero and take the penalty. I fail to see the problem.

[rlogan]

Did you even read the post before mine??????? Obviously not!

 

I am saying HP on its own is a worthless upgrade as the spec FFR sits. To use any more HP you need aero for it to have any effect.

 

I am askng why, a corvette, Ferrari, viper with the same HP/weight (not to mention aero advantage) gets to do anything they want with aero and have no consequence. Either there is an aero penalty for everyoine or no penalty at all!

[DanElam]

Gents, I think it might be worth checking out Tony's background and you'll find he isn't your typical club racer. He just happens to slum with us and beat us up more often than not. Not to take anything away from other drivers in other classes, of course. Driver comparisons are always tough, but we have a long history of these cars in spec configuration with everyone from beginner drivers to pro drivers. Our metrics are pretty good and Tony has rewritten the record books. No surprise since he's done it over the years in just about anything he has driven.

 

But here's the goofy part of the aero rules: if we run this car, we get no aero-penalty:

 

But we do get a penalty if we run the open cockpit brick:

[claykos]

Look at SCCA T1 times. These cars have ST2 type power to weight ratios with very limited modifications. They are several seconds a lap faster than what was run at Mid-O this past weekend. Now I can take a T1 car, add reservoir shocks, trick aero, bigger tires, close gear ratios, etc, etc. Now that's another few seconds faster than T1.....

[Greg G.]

Guys, we will start looking at driver suggestions regarding the rules in early summer, and proceed from there. As was previously stated, when there is little (or no) data to go on, we need to be conservative when dealing with any type of tube-frame cars.

[DriverGT5]

But here's the goofy part of the aero rules: if we run this car, we get no aero-penalty:

 

And you'd be in Super Unlimited since that isn't an approved car.

 

I understand the arguments, and I'm really not trying to be a pain, just a voice of dissent. I believe that a FFR can be very competitive in ST-2 with the chassis, but it struggles in ST-1 given the FFR is an aero nightmare for a race car. Running it in ST-1 is like bringing a knife to a gun fight. The rules are designed to roughly level the playing field, but they can't work miracles. You don't think it's fair to have sacrifice 20hp (of 400whp) for a wing and splitter so you can run in ST-1, I don't think it's fair to have a tube frame race car get it for free in ST-2 where it already shows every sign of dominating the field, regardless of the driver.

 

Add some ballast and come play in ST-2 with the rest of us!

[Falcon]

When I've been on track with them, Kaiser and Cates can get those FFR's around the track almost as fast as Tony. And when Elam gets his sorted out, he'll be right there with the other FFR guys. Does that mean that everyone who drives them are pro level drivers?

 

I can see the ST2 class ultimately turning into a higher level FFR Challenge.

[mpowers]

Jody and Rob you’re forgetting one thing, Kaiser, Cates and Tony all have deep pockets to make a car work. It also helps that all are very good drivers.

 

Needless to say that if either one of them jumped into a vette, they would only do that much better than the cobra.

 

The cobra I feel is a challenge to drive and just a lot of fun. I bet that’s the reason these guys are still running them.

 

The aero rule is just dumb on a brick and I don't care if it's a tube frame car. It's not like someone going to take the body off a cobra and install a lemans style body on it and say "yay it's legal it's a cobra with aero". But I want to be competitive with out dumping my wallet, hp is cheaper.

 

Common sense does not need data,

Mike

[Falcon]

Jody and Rob you’re forgetting one thing, Kaiser, Cates and Tony all have deep pockets to make a car work. It also helps that all are very good drivers.

 

Oh, I didn't mean to leave you and Tony out of that list of high level drivers. Y'all were just having engine issues when I was on track with you or y'all would have been on front of me, too.

 

Those FRR's have such a small footprint, you guys can put them anywhere. I've seen those cars get into open spaces I didn't think a roller skate would fit into.

 

And with their deep pockets, aero will only exacerbate an already significant difference.

[mpowers]

You can leave me out as the only way I will pass you is if you DNF. I also was refering to Tony B. not Tony J. (not to take away from either ).

 

My engine issues is I don't have enough hp, but is that relative to money.

 

But your missing my point, I think these guys are drving the cars for challenge of it. If they wanted to win with less effort they would pick another car such as a vette. Which to me and everyone else is the car to have at this point.

 

Jody if you really feel that we have such an advantage I will be happy to swap cars with you

 

Cheers,

Mike

[DriverGT5]

You can leave me out as the only way I will pass you is if you DNF. I also was refering to Tony B. not Tony J. (not to take away from either ).

 

My engine issues is I don't have enough hp, but is that relative to money.

 

But your missing my point, I think these guys are drving the cars for challenge of it. If they wanted to win with less effort they would pick another car such as a vette. Which to me and everyone else is the car to have at this point.

 

Jody if you really feel that we have such an advantage I will be happy to swap cars with you

 

Cheers,

Mike

 

I agree with Jody that those with deep pockets will only get faster with aero. Clearly what we need here is some sort of conditional rule where the size of your wing is based on your financial abilities and your driving skill. Some one like Buffomante gets absoultly nothing.

 

Someone like Mike Powers gets this...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mpowers]

 

 

 

 

 

Sweet! Sign me up!

 

But Rob your even poorer than me so I say we will let you have afterburners !

 

[abuffom]

I wasn't going to get involved in this discussion until the "deep pockets" comments started flying. Let's make sure we are all on the same page with regard to what that means.

 

Here's a point of reference so you can compare / contrast with your individual programs.

 

$26,000 (Our spec car with all spares that anyone could have purchased last year)

$3,000 (Trick Flow top-end engine kit)

$1,000 (SN95 Spindles and Cobra R Front Brakes)

$800 Front and rear sway bars

 

$30,800 total ($4,800 spent this year).

 

 

Tony B.

[mpowers]

Tony I am not trying to start an argument with you, but there is no way in hell any one believes that's what it cost to run your car.

 

I have only meet you and seen you run one time, but I was high impressed by some one who has Hoosier come with them to make sure the tires work well and a team of either highly dedicated friends or paid employees always working on your car.

 

You sir are a pro driver with a pro crew, I am glad you run with us as I always look forward to learning from someone with greater ability.

 

Cheers,

Mike

[abuffom]

Thankfully I do consider my dad a friend.

 

He doesn't even charge me that much either!