ST#97 Posted June 11, 2007 Share Posted June 11, 2007 are any of you taking into account that the SBC is zero balanced and the SBF is not? balancer failures lead to many issues with the crank when the assembly isn't zero balanced. The only failures I have seen on SBF's has been dropped valves, balancer failures just bad tuning resulting in burned pistons. I am on motor #2 now after a missed shift at an event in November. my failures have all been driver/mechanic error...which is hopefully now all behind me. The motor combo I have isn't exotic but works very well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white_2kgt Posted June 11, 2007 Share Posted June 11, 2007 are any of you taking into account that the SBC is zero balanced and the SBF is not? balancer failures lead to many issues with the crank when the assembly isn't zero balanced. The only failures I have seen on SBF's has been dropped valves, balancer failures just bad tuning resulting in burned pistons. I am on motor #2 now after a missed shift at an event in November. my failures have all been driver/mechanic error...which is hopefully now all behind me. The motor combo I have isn't exotic but works very well. And how much has it cost you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onralz Posted June 11, 2007 Share Posted June 11, 2007 are any of you taking into account that the SBC is zero balanced and the SBF is not? balancer failures lead to many issues with the crank when the assembly isn't zero balanced. The only failures I have seen on SBF's has been dropped valves, balancer failures just bad tuning resulting in burned pistons. I am on motor #2 now after a missed shift at an event in November. my failures have all been driver/mechanic error...which is hopefully now all behind me. The motor combo I have isn't exotic but works very well. FWIW, every engine that I went through last year was zero balanced. Balancing wasn't the issue though. Previously I ran the 50oz balancer and had absolutely no problems with it. It was basically a 93 Cobra motor but with .499 lift. Stock rods, crank, but with the Cobra aluminum pistons. 10-1 compression and it lasted 4 years. Now I'm lucky to get it to last four hours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ST#97 Posted June 11, 2007 Share Posted June 11, 2007 And how much has it cost you? A lot less than you would think...with an engine builder as a primary sponsor...I am doing quite well on costs! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onralz Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 PL, sorry to hear about the motor. Any news on what caused it? You were flying on Saturday it seems! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pederb Posted July 4, 2007 Share Posted July 4, 2007 Here are some firewood for this thread, Pat blew his LS-1 at Sears Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8cobra99 Posted July 4, 2007 Share Posted July 4, 2007 Patrick's LS1 motor did fail at Sears/Infineon. But possibly only due to a poor crew chief decision. At the previous event, the engine lost power because a poly-lock nut came off one of the rockers. It dropped into the engine somewhere, and they could not find it when getting the car ready for Sears. Most likely, from what Patrick told me, that that is the cause of the engine failure, as it probably dropped down the intakes or oiling galleys, down into the bottom end and caused a connecting rod to fail. The dip stick was twisted and bent... Never leave parts or tools in your motor....... andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raybob9289 Posted July 5, 2007 Share Posted July 5, 2007 Patrick's LS1 motor did fail at Sears/Infineon. But possibly only due to a poor crew chief decision. At the previous event, the engine lost power because a poly-lock nut came off one of the rockers. It dropped into the engine somewhere, and they could not find it when getting the car ready for Sears. Most likely, from what Patrick told me, that that is the cause of the engine failure, as it probably dropped down the intakes or oiling galleys, down into the bottom end and caused a connecting rod to fail. The dip stick was twisted and bent... Never leave parts or tools in your motor....... andy Its been my experience thats pretty much all that will kill an LS small block Chevy. Well, that and not using any oil!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat L. Posted July 5, 2007 Share Posted July 5, 2007 Update: So it looks like it was a rod failure. #7 took out #8 and there was a big pile of parts in the oil pan. I found out the polylock WAS found after the buttonwillow race, I just wasn't told until after I raised the question. So the crank and bearings looked good so it wasn't an oil issue, just fatigue. Also, we had upgraded to ARP rod bolts and those did their job. We're exploring our options in regards to a "built" rotating assembly, but the biggest problem is keeping the power down... I think part of the problem on the crate motor was that we were choking it significantly. *edit* My bad... it was either A) cast piston came apart or B) dropped a valve (sodium-filled valved = a little heavy to rev upwards of 7k). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trackboss Posted July 5, 2007 Share Posted July 5, 2007 Pat, there is not a single person that I know of whom is even remotely competitive that doesn't choke thier AI motor. It would be nice to see the rules re-configured to loosen up the restriction by changing the power to weight ratio (as I've suggested before) to a more reasonable level so all motors whether ford, chevy, whatever have a better chance of living. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ST#97 Posted July 5, 2007 Share Posted July 5, 2007 Pat, there is not a single person that I know of whom is even remotely competitive that doesn't choke thier AI motor. It would be nice to see the rules re-configured to loosen up the restriction by changing the power to weight ratio (as I've suggested before) to a more reasonable level so all motors whether ford, chevy, whatever have a better chance of living. Horsepucky! I run a totally unchoked motor with a stock airbox and drop in K&N and run right on the ratios in a 3050lb car...WITH a 2V MOD MOTOR!! There is Zero need to change the rules other than to start being much more specific before AI gets totally out of hand...although I already think it is. The current rules are perfectly fine now if you are smart and thrifty, you can build one hell of a competitive motor using nearly stock parts. It's when people try to get creative that you are seeing failures. John George's 14:1 327 was only making 330rwhp when he started having problems with head gaskets. That motor should have made 450rwhp with ease. I have also heard rumors of "crate Motors" in the AI list of rules considerations and if that happens, people will be RUNNING from AI. In my eyes, CMC2 was a cop out for those too chicken or incompetant to run in CMC and it's almost to a point where there might be AI-2 for those that can't do the same. Change the rules to make things more simple...yes, but do it with off the shelf parts and same make applications, lose all the carbon fiber and keep this the "budget" series it was supposed to be. Sorry, have to stand off the soap box but the whole deal about allowing more power is preposterous! It's just opening an entirely new can of worms that will only compound the already stupid problem of trying to find a competitive edge by spending a fortune. I thought this was grassroots racing and NOT SCCA A-sedan with mega budgets?! Just my $0.02.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nape Posted July 5, 2007 Share Posted July 5, 2007 Pat, there is not a single person that I know of whom is even remotely competitive that doesn't choke thier AI motor. It would be nice to see the rules re-configured to loosen up the restriction by changing the power to weight ratio (as I've suggested before) to a more reasonable level so all motors whether ford, chevy, whatever have a better chance of living. Why not try not overbuilding the motor so much? Build a 306 and run the piss out of it if you're around 3000lbs. You don't need 327/331/347/351 cubes unless you weigh 3150+. K.I.S.S. Hopefully my little 305 will make the numbers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trackboss Posted July 5, 2007 Share Posted July 5, 2007 AI#97 I agree with you on some points and I am not familiar, nor a fan, of mod motors. I have seen some that with simple bolt on parts nad tuning make plenty, if not more, of power for AI. However, you can build a stroker 302 with a very affordable eagle forged kit, add any of the inexpensive aluminum heads, an off the shelf cam, edelbrock intake, an off shelf carb and headers and make 340/340 and more at the wheels for not a lot of money. Now, you may say the stroker is unecessary, but the reason for it is that it gives you all forged internals and is available next day if necessary from summit. No hard to find parts here. So, unless you wanted to run super heavy using the above combo you would need some sort of choke. That being said you cannot build a 302 with stock parts and make the kind of power you are making. Look at a-sedan, they are restricted in their parts, but turn those motors to the moon to make power and essentially throw them away after every race. I'm all about simplicity and reliability. Whatever works for you I suppose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ST#97 Posted July 5, 2007 Share Posted July 5, 2007 That being said you cannot build a 302 with stock parts and make the kind of power you are making. BS....folks have been making 320/330 with stock bottom end 5.0's, heads letter cams/anderson cams, GT40 intake and long tubes for years. Besides, I am only making 318/329....only exotic thing with mine is the aluminum bottom end with larger liners and some skilled tuning for torque. everything else is a stock or off the shelf part. you guys are trying to get exotic and generate huge torque below 3k rpm...great, go for it trying to get exotic but you don't need it if you can drive worth a damn...last year I was 130 lbs over weight for my power and the guy who ended up winning our region was nearly the same if not MORE. He only won by 20 points....Power is NOT the secret...in our class! Some of you guys seem to think all the time you are leaving on track is in the motor when it's actually in YOU and the suspension... Every combo is going to have it's advantages and downfalls but the best is to tweak the guy behind the wheel and get the car to hook up...or better yet, don't take my advice and stay slow and get used to the look of the back of my car! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trackboss Posted July 5, 2007 Share Posted July 5, 2007 Whatever makes you happy. You continously keep telling everyone you are so fast and your motor is so stock. Well, my motor is anything but high dollar so don't even group me with the high compression guys. I listed it all above. I really don't like to post here because all it does is raise my blood pressure. I'm all for you sharing your opinions, experiences, and proposed solutions. That's what these forums are for. Please don't pretend you know everything and you are so fast. If you are any part of the texas video that was posted a while back I have a hard time believing you are as fast as you say you are. good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pederb Posted July 5, 2007 Share Posted July 5, 2007 (edited) AI#97, have you sign up for the Championships? Vageli has, so what better opportunity then to slug it out on the race track under equal conditions Edited July 5, 2007 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ST#97 Posted July 5, 2007 Share Posted July 5, 2007 Whatever makes you happy. You continously keep telling everyone you are so fast and your motor is so stock. Well, my motor is anything but high dollar so don't even group me with the high compression guys. I listed it all above. I really don't like to post here because all it does is raise my blood pressure. I'm all for you sharing your opinions, experiences, and proposed solutions. That's what these forums are for. Please don't pretend you know everything and you are so fast. If you are any part of the texas video that was posted a while back I have a hard time believing you are as fast as you say you are. good luck! So now you take shots at our region....wow! We shall see what happens at nationals and put that argument to rest....assuming I can make it. Guess you missed the vid I posted from the last event but even that was relaxed. When I get comments from Al F (CMC transplant from Cali) that he wasn't expecting to get passed so quickly by an AI car....sort of tells me the Cali boys might not be so fast either!!!! And to make sure you are clear....this shouldn't be getting your blood pressure up AT ALL. You are no different in claiming that you know everything about building 5.0 power when you limit yourself to the combo you mentioned. There are literally 20+ different head and intake combos along with some timing tricks to make the combo YOU mentioned make 320hp reliably and cheaply....AND UNCHOKED....unless you are calling a cheaper/smaller head or smaller carb/TB choking? I refer to choking as having a separate inlet restrictor...maybe that is where we are differing? Look, this is all supposed to be in fun and different strokes for different folks but I am just getting tired of folks asking/begging for rules changes because they don't have the technical savvy to play within the current rules. This isn't the YMCA where everyone is a star. I guess I should have been more clear??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ST#97 Posted July 5, 2007 Share Posted July 5, 2007 AI#97, have you sign up for the Championships? Vageli has, so what better opportunity then to slug it out on the race track under equal conditions Yes...was like #5 to sign up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pederb Posted July 5, 2007 Share Posted July 5, 2007 Cool, see you there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trackboss Posted July 5, 2007 Share Posted July 5, 2007 Don't expect to see me at nationals. With all the problems I had last weekend I am pretty much out of time and money to go so far in an unsorted car but don't worry, if Pat makes it you'll have a good idea of west competition level. I agree about this all being fun and I don't want to make enemies with anyone including you ai#97, but you are the one who points to stock engines yet advertise an engine builder as a primary sponsor of yours. If your bone stock engine with filter is so good then why do you need them? CMC is not a representation of AI. How about I have $1000 cash in hand that I will reward you with if you come to the next AI race at sears and smoke pat's qualifying time. It's public right here. Last comment: If someone with unlimited budget and time were to work within the rules and use "savvy" not only will you, but everyone will be blown out of the water. Hey I don't know anything about building cars nor driving them. Ya, I'm the slowest guy around. Maybe I should tell everyone how fast I am instead of just show it. Later dude! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Matt Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 Maybe I should tell everyone how fast I am instead of just show it. Don't expect to see me at nationals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ST#97 Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 Maybe I should tell everyone how fast I am instead of just show it. Don't expect to see me at nationals. Nice but let's keep this civil. I would love to take you up on that offer of a grand but that would barely cover the gas....let's be real...although I would love to drive that track someday and I think it would be an awesome race. Put Pat and I on similar karts with similar weights and let's battle it out that way!!! To answer your point...yes, VT has built my engine with a cobra crankshaft, stock 03 cobra rods, stock heads with a little gasket match, off the shelf intake, 75mm throttle body, lightning MAF, a lincoln mark 8 block and they did bore/hone the cylinders to get me to 304 cubes as I was a little short with only 281...but that really hasn't made me that much faster...I had them assemble the engine because they know what they are doing...I didn't at the time and they wanted to get into AI for some more business. It just hasn't worked out that way and I still do what I can to advertise for them even though I am no longer carrying their name on the car due to a new sponsorship. Is pat's car fast? I am sure it is and sadly I think it's the new generation of Hybrid AI cars. Hell, it might be cool to see a light weight Rover V8 or Lexus V8 in one of our mustangs or camaros...maybe that would be how camaros can finally get really light....maybe you are starting to see the hole in the rules as I do....and not like it. Am I worried about Pat's car at Nationals...not really because last I checked he wasn't signed up but that could have changed..it's been a few weeks since I looked. So what if he weighs 2700lbs...he better ONLY have 284 rwhp when he gets on the rollers and if that's the case he better carry a ton of exit speed onto the main straight. 40hp difference will eat him alive to push all that aero through the air. There are a heck of a lot more factors than rwhp to go up to MO and win a 40 minute race...tires, driver errors, traffic, track conditions and generally LUCK all have to play into this. If you want to see why I am not worried about him only having 2700lbs to tow along...watch the video Donovan posted about a month ago where he was on pole and at the drop of the green flag watched two 3700lb cars walk away from him on the main straight....he did get one of them back but in a risky move but he did NOT win that race and I have beaten the car that beat him more than once..although it was a great close race! There is a ton more to racing than the boat anchor under the hood of the car. I think that is something we can agree on. I think we can also agree that choking a monster motor down to get a dinner table curve has NOT been the way to go for more than just a few people who are experimenting with motor combos. So lets save all the call outs and $1000 bets for the friendly BS'n around. Laterz! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffburch Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 Obtuse thought here; does anyone who posts anonymously every get the respect they desire? Just asking. If you have a fancy handle like "smackdaddy" or "CMC#3" it help others know who you are if you sign your post with your NAME. Plus, anonymous posters always seem to get into a "mine is bigger" contest. Not good. jb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ST#97 Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 Obtuse thought here;does anyone who posts anonymously every get the respect they desire? Just asking. If you have a fancy handle like "smackdaddy" or "CMC#3" it help others know who you are if you sign your post with your NAME. Plus, anonymous posters always seem to get into a "mine is bigger" contest. Not good. jb Pot stirrer!!! Go get you car back together and let's have fun at Nationals!!! Matt White....better? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffburch Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 (edited) Naaa. Old man syndrome. Putting fluids in it now. On fence. Less cars than '06!? jb Edited July 6, 2007 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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