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Why can't a SBF last like a SBC?


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trackboss

AI#97 the motor thing is just my opinion with my experience. I have spoken to many others who are far more knowledgable than myself and they all agree with me. Anyhow, it is just a suggestion. No big deal. If it doesn't change then who cares. I do have my motor figured out with a restrictor like you mentioned and it works well. Just always keep in mind the dyno can easily be cheated. I fear that more than any particular motor combo.

I also agree with the lightweight issue. I'll take power over weight just about any day. There are other restrictions that I believe should be installed in the ai rules and I'd bet the same $1000 that you will agree with me, but I don't want to mention them now. If you care to discuss pm me and I can share. In my opinion AI is getting crazy expensive. There really is no difference between AI and AIX with the exception of width and tires. Throw in the transmission and motor limitations and AI is just costing more. The way I see it you can build very competitive AIX car and keep it realiable for what an AI car with all the bells and whistles costs. Then after you keep damaging parts because you are required to use them in AI it costs more. There are those that think you must have this and that in an AIX motor to be competitive, but it has been proven otherwise. Sure, there are some things that are nice to have, but not necessary. Also, keep in mind even in AIX there are tire limitations and we are still running pony cars so adding a boat load of hp isn't always fast. Lots of power is good, but I think one can easily go overboard and actually go slower because the car then just gets too difficult to drive.

-Vageli for those that don't know

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marshallmosty

I've signed to to the "its cheaper to build lightness than horsepower" philosophy. I'm running approx 2780 post race with 292/302 numbers. That puts me within 10 lbs or so of my minimum weight.

 

The short block has lasted for 4 years now and it didn't even get any machine work to be freshened up for AI duty. Just a no name junkyard 302 that was put back together with new rings and bearings.

 

I'm not currently pushing any exotic aero right now, but should have a descent setup at the next TX race in August. Will I have enough HP to push the aero through the air... don't know yet.

 

The motor is basically beating it's heart out and the only reserve I have is a bit of timing I could add and tweak the fuel pressure. My numbers aren't all that hard to make, nor are they as hard on the car as a 14:1 monster.

 

Everyone has their own philosophy. Prescribe to it, live by it, but don't spew it as gospel... YMMV

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AI#97 the motor thing is just my opinion with my experience. I have spoken to many others who are far more knowledgable than myself and they all agree with me. Anyhow, it is just a suggestion. No big deal. If it doesn't change then who cares. I do have my motor figured out with a restrictor like you mentioned and it works well. Just always keep in mind the dyno can easily be cheated. I fear that more than any particular motor combo.

I also agree with the lightweight issue. I'll take power over weight just about any day. There are other restrictions that I believe should be installed in the ai rules and I'd bet the same $1000 that you will agree with me, but I don't want to mention them now. If you care to discuss pm me and I can share. In my opinion AI is getting crazy expensive. There really is no difference between AI and AIX with the exception of width and tires. Throw in the transmission and motor limitations and AI is just costing more. The way I see it you can build very competitive AIX car and keep it realiable for what an AI car with all the bells and whistles costs. Then after you keep damaging parts because you are required to use them in AI it costs more. There are those that think you must have this and that in an AIX motor to be competitive, but it has been proven otherwise. Sure, there are some things that are nice to have, but not necessary. Also, keep in mind even in AIX there are tire limitations and we are still running pony cars so adding a boat load of hp isn't always fast. Lots of power is good, but I think one can easily go overboard and actually go slower because the car then just gets too difficult to drive.

-Vageli for those that don't know

 

What's funny is you bring up being competitive in AIX....funnier that I am currently running AIX for fun and will likely be the regional champ if I keep it up....in full AI legal trim. It's easy to win a race of one! YOu might be on to something as a trend that people will run AIX because it's cheaper?! How f'd up is that?!!! I totally agree that AI is out of control and I personally think the lack of rules AND enforcement will continue to turn it into "who can spend the most to win" class.

 

I personally would be less worried about fudging dynos because you can always play with tuning between dynos....not that I would but let's say Patrick L showed up with a 4 foot square funnel on the nose of the car as a ramair setup...dyno numbers are then not a factor. If you TRULY want to be ruled by a dyno, there are SO many factors to be regulated by a slew of new rules to make that happen. I would love to see a rule in the 08' amendments that the engine must match the make AND model year range of the car it is in. That would prevent the hybrids, use of 'other' motors and aluminum cobra motors into older fox bodies which are easily 300lbs lighter than an SN95. Is this a rules discussion? No. But what it HAS started is the question of why a motor won't last....because we are trying to do things within the current rules set that DON'T make them last!!!! Therefore creating the money pits we are putting on track. CMC or spec mustang as it's been called is starting to look pretty good!!!

 

Just my point of view and no puppies were harmed in this opinion!!!

 

MW

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This has become quite the interesting thread.

 

Mr. White, good luck at Nationals. You didn't make it out last year, did you? Anyways, although I haven't signed up yet, I'm 99% sure I will be in attendance. I have enjoyed reading your thoughts on AI tech... it's always interesting to see what other people think about what works and what doesn't. There are some points I'd like to make, but as your competitor, I'll hold off until after the big race.

 

BTW, out of curiosity, what would it take for you to make the trek out to Infineon to humble us? Maybe we could chip in gas/entry money for the pleasure of seeing you take some laps?

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BTW, out of curiosity, what would it take for you to make the trek out to Infineon to humble us? Maybe we could chip in gas/entry money for the pleasure of seeing you take some laps?

 

Invent a teleporter to get me and the car out there and I am in!!! I have made a few long tows already this year and that is burning me out on towing/racing. Prime reason Nationals has recently become a maybe. Doubt I would humble anyone but I will definitely give you my all and would hope to make it a hell of a race. I really would like to go head to head with you on track and just test out all of the theories both good and bad but I will be honest...my energy for racing is dwindling as much as the car counts are. Hence why I am running AIX since there is zero pressure and if I want to come in early, so be it. Worked out well for a rain race we recently had...

 

We will just have to see about nationals though. I think it would be fun, but the 1100 miles out AND back is weighing much more than battling it out on track and taking 8 or 9 days vacation. At this point, I would rather go to Mexico for 7 days! Also, the Barber event in October is looking a little more enticing at this junction as it's half the distance and have heard the track is incredible. We are also getting a new track about an hour and half from my door that is going to be awesome as well.

 

Oh well,...fun will be had one way or another.....

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D Algozine

So, should the title of this thread read, " A SBF is as reliable as a SBC".

I'm sure if you calculated the number of engine failures divided by each manufacturer, you would find that the numbers are very close.

 

So, if a Ford based aluminum block is made legal, they will install a hell of a lot easier than a Chevy in a Mustang. And if this is ratified ASAP, we still have time to build an aluminum engine for the Nationals. No one can argue that being able to perfectly balance the car is a huge benifit. Take into consideration the major development over the years of the Mustang suspension and available aftermarket, and you will have the car to race in AI.

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Uh, Dave, all OE aluminum blocks are legal... just no aftermarket blocks like Dart. So go build that Ford Aluminum motor!!!

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D Algozine
Uh, Dave, all OE aluminum blocks are legal... just no aftermarket blocks like Dart. So go build that Ford Aluminum motor!!!

 

Per the rules:

7.11 Engine

7.11.1 AI cars may not use non-OEM aluminum engine blocks. Examples of excluded engine blocks would be the World Products or Ford Motorsports aluminum blocks. This does not preclude the use of factory equipped aluminum blocks such as the 4.6 Ford or GM LS1. Later model engines may be installed into earlier model cars and vice versa.

7.11.2 AIX engine blocks are unrestricted.

7.11.3 AI vehicles may not use dry-sump oiling systems

 

Not interested in the Mod motor for obvious reasons, or swapping in an LS1, but the Ford Motorsports aluminum block would be a very simple install, and doesn't cost any more then the other aluminum options. Why not allow the simplest install? Hell, why not allow aftermarket aluminum blocks? The cost of an aftermarket Ford based aluminum block in a Mustang vs. an LS1 in a Mustang has got to be close, and the motorsports block would be less, when you consider the install.

 

Since you asked me, than I feel obligated to ask, why an LS1?

 

For the record the rules are wide open for humdreds of engine combinations, including many aluminum V6 blocks, top of line race engines. The list is endless. Will they be allowed?

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For the record the rules are wide open for humdreds of engine combinations, including many aluminum V6 blocks, top of line race engines. The list is endless. Will they be allowed?

 

you could always get an IRL Ford motor...but would have to lose the dry sump....hell, put an LS7 in a fox car for AIX!!! That would be sort of neat!

 

 

And as far as the mod motors, why the objections...? Just asking because you can get a complete 4V motor from a Mark 8 for like $375 at a wrecking yard and they are easier to deal with than most make it out to be. My 2V all aluminum motor weighs 85 lbs less than the stock iron block that came out of the car. totally changed the balance of the car!

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Hell, why not allow aftermarket aluminum blocks? The cost of an aftermarket Ford based aluminum block in a Mustang vs. an LS1 in a Mustang has got to be close, and the motorsports block would be less, when you consider the install.

 

Here's why: $4933.95! We might as well allow Jericos too then, they're only $5500!

 

I think people are losing sight of this being amateur racing. Obviously, there will always be people with bigger wallets, but if I wanted to race a series where people build $15k motors I'd go race on dirt where they actually PAY YOU to race. Do you really want to spend that much money to race for "Winner" stickers and plastic trophies (and only have 320HP!)? I guess I just don't get it.

 

This is my opinion, but I'm not sure if the big wallets understand what they are doing to AI. If I would've seen two years ago what people are spending in AI today, I would've never even thought about it. I'd be CMC for sure. Honestly, I wish I hadn't cut parts out for weight that now make the car unusable in CMC, but what's done is done and I'm going to see if I can be competitive in what I've got. My point is, the AI car counts are going to keep dropping and/or they'll be snoozer races (kind of like AIX) because most people can't afford $50k+ money pits .

 

Racing will always be expensive, but it doesn't have to be outrageously so (and a $5000 block is outrageous to me).

 

Vote NO to Rules Creep.

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D Algozine
Vote NO to Rules Creep.

 

This is not rules creep. Aluminum blocks have always been in the rules, just very few have used them, and a recent interpretation has shed light on the subject.

 

A $3,500 Motorsports block is a lot cheaper and much easier to install in my car then an LS1. I can reuse everything and it all fits perfectly without modification or fabrication.

 

There are very few fully modified AI cars racing. Most cars are not built to the limit of the rules. However, as the competition increases I'm sure there will be more.

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A $3,500 Motorsports block is a lot cheaper and much easier to install in my car then an LS1.

 

This is a very interesting thread indeed.

 

Just my $.02, but considering a ready to drop in crate LS1 can be had for $3500, I don't see where this statement holds water. And I'm no expert, but I believe they are quite simple to drop into a pony.

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King Matt

Where do you get $3500 for an LS1 crate engine? The street price is closer to $5K for a GMPP LS1 without a wiring harness or ECU. To that you can add custom mounts, fabricated headers, transmission and wiring mods, etc., and you probably have at least a $7,500 swap.

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BobKaser#90

I'm gonna throw my .02 in, fwiw,

 

I see no reason why a sbf can't last a couple of seasons at least. I built a 306 to A/S specs back in the early 90's when I was running A/S. Back then you only needed a stock block with a good set of pistons, stock rods w/ good bolts, stock crank and a good balance job. I had Iron GT-40 heads and a flat tappet similiar to an e-303, and with this combo was able to be competitive. Then the spending started to get out of hand and I saw that I was getting outspent rather than outdriven.

 

Long story short, I gave up on A/S, put a hyd. roller in the motor and continued to run the same motor with the local club up here(EMRA) for a couple of seasons. That motor was in my car from '93 til almost the end of the '97 season when I did something stupid and blew it up. Totally my fault. Next I built another short block, Eagle crank, crower rods J/E pistons, with my iron heads and ran that for a few seasons including my first two in AI. Blew that up at VIR in '05. Again it was operator error.

 

Since Vir in '05 I had a stock '93 Cobra short block in my car down to the cast pistons with my same iron heads and ran that till I (see the common thread here) over revved it and broke a valve in Aug at Summitt. I scrambled and came up with the 150,000 mile '89 short block in the car in the 3 weeks before the Nationals. Still my same Iron GT-40 heads from the '90's. I finished 8th at the Nationals. I do think I was a little down on power due to the high milege short block. I could feel it was laying down as the race went on and it got hotter.

 

I guess my point is that a sbf should be able to last at least 2 seasons if it is assembled well and close atteniton is paid to the balace job. I think most failures are DRIVER error. Maybe I am one of the few to admit it though. I also see the same things happening in AI that A/S went though. I once again am getting out spent as I can't afford a $2k wing or the carbon body panels, I can barely afford new tires on my salary. Anyone who has had a close look at my car would probably agree. Part of my problem is that I live in one of the most expensive regions in the country.

 

When I first started in AI, I thought it was great, a place I can compete on a small budget. So much for that I guess. But I made some great friends and will still try and get out to a couple of races a year just for the fun and to see my friends.

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When I first started in AI, I thought it was great, a place I can compete on a small budget. So much for that I guess. But I made some great friends and will still try and get out to a couple of races a year just for the fun and to see my friends.

 

Same here. If I am going to have $70 or 80k in something, it's going to be a Z06 Corvette I can drive every day and not just 6 or 7 times a YEAR!!! Maybe a CTS-V though so I can share in the fun!

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BobKaser#90

Part of the problem is that the grassroots guys that I think AI was intended for can't afford it any more, myself included.

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I don't see where this statement holds water. And I'm no expert, but I believe they are quite simple to drop into a pony.

 

Add:

-bellhousing

-flywheel

-clutch/pp

-transmission

-driveshaft length

-fuel line routing

-motor mounts

-trans cross member

 

Those are just what I could think about off the top of my head.

 

I understand where Dave is coming from, and I agree with the AL block idea more then an LS1 in a Mustang, but I voice my opinion against whatever I don't want in the series.

 

Dave: It is rules creep though. Non-production aluminum blocks aren't allowed. The way I interpret the rules, I believe the original intent was to allow update/backdate swaps along manufacturer lines, but someone used a loophole. Do we close the loophole or change the rules to let people spend money to catch up to the loophole? Seems like a no-brainer to me, but I don't run the show.

 

Quick research says a 302 AL block saves about 60lbs. Even using Dave's number of $3500, the weight loss costs $58/lb.

 

I'm along for the AI ride, but I just don't get it.

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Part of the problem is that the grassroots guys that I think AI was intended for can't afford it any more, myself included.

 

Ding ding ding

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trackboss

The engine thing is being beaten to death. How about the rules creep thing be pushed aside for a moment and take a look at the big picture? In my opinion the rules are pretty wide open for AI the way I see it and anyone that chooses to take advantage of them whether it is expensive or not is not doing anything illegal. If anything it just further proves the rules are not as tight as they should be to attract more competitors and keep the racing close. Allowing an aftermarket aluminum ford is really not going to cost much more than a stout 4 bolt main iron block that many are using for durability reasons. With the aluminum you get the strength and shed a few pounds. I personally am a big fan of the LSX chevy motors, but I also may be one of the few who has had good luck with ford smallblocks. The one that did get damaged had nothing to do with the fact that it was a ford or driver error. The head mfg simply used incorrect valvesprings for the application. There is an advantage to a lighter motor as well as other things that go along with the LSx. However, I think you all are too focused on motor and not realizing the rules are wide open for other very expensive modifications that are far more effective at producing lower lap times and in my opinion should be limited to the AIX class. I would rather see simpler and more durable cars compete in AI that also race well.

 

-V

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The engine thing is being beaten to death. How about the rules creep thing be pushed aside for a moment and take a look at the big picture? In my opinion the rules are pretty wide open for AI the way I see it and anyone that chooses to take advantage of them whether it is expensive or not is not doing anything illegal. If anything it just further proves the rules are not as tight as they should be to attract more competitors and keep the racing close. Allowing an aftermarket aluminum ford is really not going to cost much more than a stout 4 bolt main iron block that many are using for durability reasons. With the aluminum you get the strength and shed a few pounds. I personally am a big fan of the LSX chevy motors, but I also may be one of the few who has had good luck with ford smallblocks. The one that did get damaged had nothing to do with the fact that it was a ford or driver error. The head mfg simply used incorrect valvesprings for the application. There is an advantage to a lighter motor as well as other things that go along with the LSx. However, I think you all are too focused on motor and not realizing the rules are wide open for other very expensive modifications that are far more effective at producing lower lap times and in my opinion should be limited to the AIX class. I would rather see simpler and more durable cars compete in AI that also race well.

 

-V

 

Our concerns about rules need to be taken offline to another thread and to make sure the AI "steering committee" realizes they are headed into the wrong direction really quick. There are probably 10 basic rules changes that can be discussed now to make 08' much more fun and keep the series in check. If someone wants to put a toyota 4 cyl into a fireturd, that needs to be reserved for AIX.

 

So, let's all start another thread for 08 rules discussion and leave this motor business to the engine builders...sound like an idea?

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