Guidelines for passing cooperation

[BrandonT]

How can we TT drivers be more courteous towards each other in regards to passing? I would like to hear some ideas on how we can help each other get our fast laps in. I know we are all experienced but is there anything we can do to maybe say ‘HOT LAP!’ to the other drivers? Flash your lights to pass or something?

 

Personally, I have experienced other drivers in faster cars ruining my hot laps just to get by me. If they’re on a hot lap then I don’t want to hold them up. In fact, if I am not on a hot lap I try to get out of the way and let them know it (tap my brakes, point). OTOH, if they were already held up then there is no need to pass me at the apex or under braking either. They can use their HP to pass me at track out and not screw up my lap.

 

I think a little cooperation can go a long way, but I’d like some input from the TT community. What do you guys think? I’m not talking rules, just guidelines.

[cosm3os]

Is a signal really necessary? Common sense would work well here. In the scenario where a faster car is approaching a slower car, the faster car does not need to know whether the slower car is on a hot lap--he should assume it unless there is evidence to the contrary (i.e. slow car is in a train, just spun, etc). The fast car DOES know whether he just ruined his own hot lap (or will to get around the slow car) by either checking up or even slightly modifying his line. In that case, the fast car should wait to make a pass when it won't alter the slow car's lap.

 

My .02

[JamesE]

Is a signal really necessary? Common sense would work well here. In the scenario where a faster car is approaching a slower car, the faster car does not need to know whether the slower car is on a hot lap--he should assume it unless there is evidence to the contrary (i.e. slow car is in a train, just spun, etc). The fast car DOES know whether he just ruined his own hot lap (or will to get around the slow car) by either checking up or even slightly modifying his line. In that case, the fast car should wait to make a pass when it won't alter the slow car's lap.

 

My .02

 

I agree. I run in TTA so I'm generally one of the faster cars. When I come up on a slower car anywhere other than a straightaway, I slow down and give the slower car some room. I assume they are on a hot lap. I stay a few car lengths back so they know that I'm not putting pressure on them or asking them to move over. I wait until I can setup a pass on a long straightaway. If I am caught behind more than a couple slower cars I generally hit the pits and reenter when I have more space. Driving a faster car also gives me the luxury of running one hot lap, then a warm lap to cool the car a bit, then attack again on the next lap. This gives me a little space without interfering with anyone.

[BrandonT]

I think that's a great attitude, but not everyone does that. Staying back is a really good clear signal to the slow car. I had a faster car wave me by on their 'warm' lap (so I could go hot) and pass me again for their hot lap. That'd be great if it always went that way.

 

Personally I am comfortable if you want to tuck in behind me as well. Just don't pop inside under braking because at that point I'm committed to the fast line. And don't punt me, either.

[Lemming]

We have a similar discusion going on in the Southeast Section ("How to get clean laps in TT - http://www.nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=15286)

[kbrew8991]

with a slower car, you have to be very aware of rearward traffic, which is tough

 

I wish there was some kind of signal for "hey I'm on a good lap, I'll let you by when I can"....

[Bart Carter]

If a car comes up behind me and I am not on a hot lap, I give a point-by. Hopefully where I won't hurt his time. I would expect the same from cars I come up on. If I get no point-by, I assume they are on a hot lap and try to pass where it would not hurt their time. There may be a gray area where I may take a pass that may hurt the slower car's time if I am running a great lap and could keep my time going.

 

This type of track courtesy could be emphasized in the session talks. Maybe brought up by TT'ers that felt there was an unnecessary pass or weren't given a point-by.

[heavychevy]

I think the slower cars should just keep their lines and let the faster cars adjust. Because chances are if the faster car isnt passing on a straight they arent going to get their best time anyways and should just wait for an opening.

 

At Road Atlanta I had several cars move over to the right (out of 7) to be courteous and actually hindered me because I had a run on them to exit turn 7 and go inside of them and we went to the inside at the same time.

 

On the contrary, when getting passed by Reese and Cory, they were able to do so smoothly and without me breaking my line. Cory had to slow up because there is nothing that can be done about turn 12 and I was on a cool down lap. Even on my cool down lap, I sped through 10a and b because there were 3 cars coming who were DEFINITELY on a hot lap.

 

 

So I guess the point is that slower cars should just keep their lines and let the others adjust, because if there is no rule on it signals will get mixed all the time, the only time you should alter your travel is on cool down laps to stay out of the way.

[FastSaleen]

I think the slower cars should just keep their lines and let the faster cars adjust. ...

So I guess the point is that slower cars should just keep their lines and let the others adjust...

 

You hit it right on the head. Based on the CCR, it is the Passing Car's responsibility to make a clean pass - not the slower car's. The slower car should always hold their line. If they don't, they stand more of a chance of being punted by the faster car. The driver of the faster car should already be planning the pass - where, when, and how it will be done. If the faster car makes a move to pass and the slower car moves off-line, chances are greater for body contact to happen.

[BrandonT]

First, you are all correct. That is probably what SHOULD happen. The slower cars should hold their line and the faster cars get by where they can - cleanly and without disturbing the slow cars' lap. In reality it hasn't been happening that way, at least not in my experience.

 

What ends up happening is the fast cars dive under the slow cars under braking and take the apex away. Keep in mind if the slow car is braking as late as possible then they are pretty much hung out to dry by that move. The only response is to hold an outside line and try to slow down enough that you don't go off. It has happened to me at least once per session over 2 events. Sometimes it's MANY times per session. I don't mind so much except when I can't see the move coming (like when they stay tucked in right up to the brake point).

 

So, I thought some discussion on communication would be helpful.

[BrandonT]

This is along the lines of what I was envisioning:

 

1. As the faster car, if you catch up to someone you must assume he is on a hot lap unless they indicate otherwise or you know they are not up to speed. Respect their lap by giving them the line. Passing in a corner compromises both cars’ laps and benefits no one.

2. As the faster car, if you intend to take the line to pass then you should indicate your intention. In nearly equal cars this may be just pulling out a bit (show your nose). You may also use ‘flash to pass’ as a heads up. “Hey, I’m coming through!â€

[FastSaleen]

OK, I now see the real problem here. Let me ask you a question - What region are you driving in? I don't know about your region, but in mine there is an unwritten rule that has been stated - "No Dive Bombing in the Corners". Sounds to me as if that rule needs to be enforced wherever you're driving. Whoever is diving under you should have realized by now that when they do that they are NOT getting their best lap. They are off-line in order to dive under you, so therefore it can not be the best lap for them. Sounds like some "track manners" need to be discussed by your TT director and penalties provided for not behaving properly. Not only would it not be the "best lap", but an unneccessary door is being opened for an on track incident to happen.

[BrandonT]

Midwest and some IN/OH. The TT leader brought it up at our meetings after I spoke to him, but we don't really have a rule (written or spoken) like that. Not something that would incur a penalty. I have heard the 'No Dive Bombing' said, and everyone agrees that it isn't a good idea, but it has not been presented as a guideline / rule.

 

And again, I'm perfectly willing to yield even if you want to make that kind of pass. But I'd REALLY like to know that it's coming. I nearly hit someone last weekend because they waited until the last possible moment to pull out - I needed a quick brake stab before turn in and they did not and got a nose next to me. My focus already moved to the apex and I only saw them out of my peripheral.

[FastSaleen]

Damn - that's the regions I have always run with. I'm sorry I don't know you, but I'll be watching for you now so we can meet. I'm the shorter guy in the bright green shirts on the safety truck. I went w2w last year driving the Black #57 Spec Miata (was #00 in 2006), so I've only been out in TT with the Saleen at Mid-Ohio for a couple of sessions. You should bring it up again at the meetings - John Graber (OH/IN) and Bill Marquardt (Midwest) are both good guys and I'm sure they would be willing to better enforce a "No Dive-Bombing" rule. After all, it isn't wheel to wheel racing and, like I already said, dive bombing a car is not going to bring you your fastest lap.

[IS300]

I think this is a great discussion for everyone. I don't run a car that has a lot of straight line speed, in fact, it is pretty much a land yacht, but it will hang with TTB and TTA cars in the corners

 

The two tracks that we have been to thus far really reward corner speed. Some of the faster cars will gain a ton on the straights, but can't get by in the corners because the speed differential has eroded.

 

I look at a "hot lap" this way, once I have checked my mirror for more than 2-3 corners I have lost my concentration enough to get 10/10ths out of that lap, so I let the car by where it is safe.

 

I think it "safe" is a matter of opinion, and I feel comfortable with our group for the most part to go 2 wide in a corner for a pass, but that's just me.

 

Take Care, See Ya

 

Chris

#159 TTE

Lexus IS300

[roadracetransam]

This came up in our last event. Low horsepower car w/fast corner speed vs. high hp car w/slow cornering. The problem is if they both run similar lap times the "slow" car will be held up in the corners and the "fast" car will be held up in the straights. The could keep passing each other back and fort but than neither will have a good lap.

I drive a high hp car but I suck in the twisties, so I just backed way off in the out lap to let the "slow" car get 2 hot laps in than reeled him in the next 2 laps, passed him on the straight and went all out in the next 2.

He was happy, and I was happy.

He did not feel like he should let me by on the straights, just to get stuck behind me in the coners.

I did not feel like an A..Hole having him on my ass thru the turns just to blast away in the straights.

And I did not have to lift and brake way early to keep from collecting him before turn in.

Just back of a bit in the beginning.

[cosm3os]

I'm not sure "divebombing" as it is truly defined is the problem (at least in our group). Any passing at the end of the straight that occurs at or in the braking zone disrupts the car being passed (whether it's concentration, hesitation to keep the line, etc.) Such a pass inevitably ruins the passing car's lap too cause he has to modify his line.

 

If we all agree that a faster car who comes up on a slow car should assume the slow car is on a hot lap and knows his own lap is now toast and, therefore should back off, then the addendum to the rule should be wait to pass coming out of the turn, rather than going into it and wait until you are going into a straight long enough that you know you can get around cleanly. It is less likely to disrupt the slower car's lap.

[heavychevy]

Whoever is diving under you should have realized by now that when they do that they are NOT getting their best lap. They are off-line in order to dive under you, so therefore it can not be the best lap for them. Sounds like some "track manners" need to be discussed by your TT director and penalties provided for not behaving properly. Not only would it not be the "best lap", but an unneccessary door is being opened for an on track incident to happen.

 

Yeah but at some tracks there are lots of people on track with TT (hpde 4 etc) and your going to have to pass someone on every lap, so just saying give up on your lap time will not suffice for most drivers.

 

And if a rule is unwritten, then it's not enforceable. To say "open" passing but no dive bombing is a contradiction because that's the only way you can pass in a corner if the other car keeps line. Open passing unless otherwise stated means just that.

 

On a side note I think cool down lappers should be the one exception and should use hazards if equiped for the cool down lap o inform the other drivers other than that Brandon T hit it on the head.

[heavychevy]

I'm not sure "divebombing" as it is truly defined is the problem (at least in our group). Any passing at the end of the straight that occurs at or in the braking zone disrupts the car being passed (whether it's concentration, hesitation to keep the line, etc.) Such a pass inevitably ruins the passing car's lap too cause he has to modify his line.

 

If we all agree that a faster car who comes up on a slow car should assume the slow car is on a hot lap and knows his own lap is now toast and, therefore should back off, then the addendum to the rule should be wait to pass coming out of the turn, rather than going into it and wait until you are going into a straight long enough that you know you can get around cleanly. It is less likely to disrupt the slower car's lap.

 

Passing on straights is garbage and you will already have more complaints than there are about having too many people (hpde 4) on track with the time trialers. The faster people have to deal with the fact that there are sometimes too many people on track to get a clean lap (which the faster you go, the less chance of a clean lap) , so the slower people have to deal with getting passed in corners.

 

And could you imagine the traffic that would develope at these tracks waiting for straights only passing, it would kill the whole meaning of time trial. Most tracks dont have straights after every corner so you would get stuck behind someone for nearly half of a lap, sorry no way.

[Greg G.]

And if a rule is unwritten, then it's not enforceable. To say "open" passing but no dive bombing is a contradiction because that's the only way you can pass in a corner if the other car keeps line. Open passing unless otherwise stated means just that.

Wrong and more wrong! Whatever the group leader/TT Director says in your meetings goes. If they say no divebombing (which every TT Director and HPDE group leader should be saying), there is no divebombing.

 

"Divebombing" means that the driver attempting to make a pass when approaching a turn goes off-line inside of another car that is already at it's turn-in location. In TT, we use the same rules as the racers in regard to the "right to a line". If a car is attempting a pass when approaching a turn, the front wheel of the the car must be even with the driver of the other vehicle before the other vehicle is turning in. If it isn't, then the driver attempting to pass has no right to have his car there, and must back out and allow the leading car to the line it chooses. If the wheel is even with the driver of the vehicle being passed, then the car has a right to be there, and the turn should be shared by both vehicles. It doesn't mean that the car making the pass can then take any line it wants (i.e. a wide line to make up for the late braking it did to get in that position).

 

Divebombing is unsafe and over-aggressive, and puts both cars/drivers at risk, and will not be tolerated. However, a car that is attempting a "late" pass, while the leading car is still straight-line braking and hasn't/is not ready to turn in yet, is not divebombing. If faster cars had to pull back and wait every time they came on a slower or heavier car that was beginning to brake at the triple cones just because they were in the braking zone, it would be ridiculous. But, true divebombing is not permitted in any NASA region.

 

If you would like some rules in writing, here they are:

 

NASA TT competition will take place during advanced level, open-passing combined NASA HPDE/TT sessions or in a separate NASA TT run group at the discretion of the Event Director. All regulations applicable to NASA HPDE as set out in the NASA CCR will apply to NASA TT competitors. All NASA TT competitors are expected to drive in a safe and controlled manner in compliance with the NASA CCR’s, namely Sections 6 and 7....

Any driver displaying unsportsmanlike conduct either on or off the track, driving in an over-aggressive manner, or failing to cooperate with other drivers on the track will be subject to harsh penalties, which may include expulsion from further TT competition.

 

Here's some more from the CCR:

 

6.1 Purpose and Philosophy

All drivers are required to operate their vehicles within the rules, and within the limits of the pavement. Failure to do so compromises the integrity of the program and will not be tolerated. The following rules apply to course conduct, as well as common courtesy and good judgment. Participants are held responsible for their conduct just as much on the

track as when they are in the paddock. Any over-aggressive driving, risky pass attempts, or discourteous driving will result in substantial penalties.

 

Now, as far as cooperative driving is concerned, we should all try to cooperate with each other. There may be times when the only time to get a really clean lap is in the first two laps of a session--that's just the way it goes sometimes. Gridding each competition session by best previous lap times helps to get the largest number of competitors clean laps. If you notice track behavior that is not polite, bring it up in your download sessions--that's one of the reasons that we have them. Communication both on and off the track is important. However, DO NOT use your brake lights to attempt to communicate with another driver--EVER. If the slower cars just stay on-line, and let the faster cars plan and execute safe passes, everything will work itself out.

[FocusTed]

"In TT, we use the same rules as the racers in regard to the "right to a line". If a car is attempting a pass when approaching a turn, the front wheel of the the car must be even with the driver of the other vehicle before the other vehicle is turning in. If it isn't, then the driver attempting to pass has no right to have his car there, and must back out and allow the leading car to the line it chooses. If the wheel is even with the driver of the vehicle being passed, then the car has a right to be there, and the turn should be shared by both vehicles. It doesn't mean that the car making the pass can then take any line it wants (i.e. a wide line to make up for the late braking it did to get in that position).

 

My guess is if TT uses the same rule as the racers use with "the front wheel of the the car must be even with the driver of the other vehicle before the other vehicle is turning in", that the other part of the rule where the cars only need to give three quarters of one car width room to one another is not part of it in TT?

[Greg G.]

Good guess.

[cosm3os]

I don't think this is really a rules issue, more of a courtesy issue.

[heavychevy]

 

"Divebombing" means that the driver attempting to make a pass when approaching a turn goes off-line inside of another car that is already at it's turn-in location. In TT, we use the same rules as the racers in regard to the "right to a line". If a car is attempting a pass when approaching a turn, the front wheel of the the car must be even with the driver of the other vehicle before the other vehicle is turning in. If it isn't, then the driver attempting to pass has no right to have his car there, and must back out and allow the leading car to the line it chooses. If the wheel is even with the driver of the vehicle being passed, then the car has a right to be there, and the turn should be shared by both vehicles. It doesn't mean that the car making the pass can then take any line it wants (i.e. a wide line to make up for the late braking it did to get in that position).

 

 

This leaves a lot of room for speculation. Turn in points vary, braking zones vary even more. It seems to me like someone could follow the rule stated and still be considered as "divebombing". So one TT driver complains and then there is a whole fiasco. But I completely agree that drivers should be courteous to others, I just wouldnt take offense if someone did it to me (because if they are passing, they earned it), but I dont drive in that fashion.

[BrandonT]

Now, as far as cooperative driving is concerned, we should all try to cooperate with each other. ... Communication both on and off the track is important. However, DO NOT use your brake lights to attempt to communicate with another driver--EVER.

 

Glad you chimed in, Greg. You say that communication is important. What kind of on track communication do you recommend? That's the basis of where I was going with this to begin with.

 

For the slower car you can point (hard for me with nets) signal or tap your brakes. Signaling is a little backwards in this experienced group, I think. The brake tap was suggested as a way to wave to the faster cars behind you, and I found it works quite well. Just tap them enough to light them (obviously, not as they are right on your bumper, but as they approach). It says "I know you're there and about to pass". And I don't think you can mis-interpret it. This is really handy in fast straights as the high speed cars approach. They know you see them, and aren't going to apex the slight bend ahead.

 

IMO, the more communication we can standardize, the better off we all are.