is kpro S2000 H1 legal?

[msp282]

I put in a rules request to get AEM EMS allowed for S2000's but have not heard much

 

IMO the S2000 is in need of power so the AEM EMS seems the most logical for price and power, but.... since I have not heard much yet...

 

..exploring options, is KPRO legal for S2000's? it requires a RSX-S ECU for the S2000 to work properly.

 

thanks!

[wm577]

Any Honda ECU is legal in HC, so yes the Hondata KPRO system is legal.

[6ghatch]

but... it does require the use of 2 RSX-S sensors. I still think it would be legal.

 

We should allow the S2000's to have the same "open" engine management rules as the rest of H1..

 

and look at what you have to go through just to make it work!!!

 

http://www.hondata.com/s2000kpro.html

[Chris F]

but... it does require the use of 2 RSX-S sensors. I still think it would be legal.

 

We should allow the S2000's to have the same "open" engine management rules as the rest of H1..

 

and look at what you have to go through just to make it work!!!

 

http://www.hondata.com/s2000kpro.html

 

I think the sensors are illegal anyway but who cares... if you can run a piggyback system you might as well have an open ECU rule! As it stands, the only guys I know programming newer ECU's like the Acura TL is Honda R&D, and I don't know how other teams can compete without manufacturer backing.

 

Anyhow, if you physically bolt an AEM EMS to the back of an OEM ECU, isn't it by definition a piggyback?

 

-Chris

[msp282]

still waiting for a director of some sort to help me out on this.

 

My rules request seems to have stalled. I have no idea what the big deal is about AEM EMS. with enough $ and tuning the S2000 will make the same power with a Kpro or other system....so why not just allow the AEM and be done?

[Andrie]

Is this Scot?

 

After watching the last video of the race between the S2K and Chris D (repeatedly), I am pretty sure the car is about even. The K24 is only slightly faster. Even on the straight, he could not get by while in the draft.

 

Stock to stock, the F20C or F22C makes more power than K20 or K24. Which both has to run pretty much stock.

 

The S2K has better chassis, aerodynamic wise, and in term of overall chassis.

 

It only fair if S2K has more limitation than the K20 or K24 powered cars.

 

In the race, if it is not because driver hic-up the S2K would easily won the race.

 

The video clearly shown where the S2K is stronger, the handling and braking. 2 important aspect, while the Civic was only slightly better in the power department. I would say 2 out of 3 advantage ain't bad. You surely don't need all 3 advantage in order to win.

[msp282]

Andrie - it is me Scot.

 

My S2000 had AEM EMS that weekend...... I took the approach that Chris F posted above and duct taped my stock ECU to it to claim it was legal.

 

without the AEM i am down about 20-25whp from where it was that weekend.

 

I know i have braking advantage for sure....and probably have a small advantage in handling... i say small because I am burdened with 300-500extra pounds depending on which hybrid.....K20s and K24's on KPRO or AEM are making more HP/Torque than my F22 even on AEM....significantly more if I am on stock ECU with VAFC..... KPRO Won't be available for the S2000 until late July.....

 

I would say I have a disadantage on Aerodynamics due to the steep windsheild rake on the S2000....

 

Chris ended up running .6 seconds faster than me fastest lap vs fastest lap for the weekend and that was with me on AEM EMS....

 

Is this Scot?

 

After watching the last video of the race between the S2K and Chris D (repeatedly), I am pretty sure the car is about even. The K24 is only slightly faster. Even on the straight, he could not get by while in the draft.

 

Stock to stock, the F20C or F22C makes more power than K20 or K24. Which both has to run pretty much stock.

 

The S2K has better chassis, aerodynamic wise, and in term of overall chassis.

 

It only fair if S2K has more limitation than the K20 or K24 powered cars.

 

In the race, if it is not because driver hic-up the S2K would easily won the race.

 

The video clearly shown where the S2K is stronger, the handling and braking. 2 important aspect, while the Civic was only slightly better in the power department. I would say 2 out of 3 advantage ain't bad. You surely don't need all 3 advantage in order to win.

Edited June 1, 2007 by Guest

[Andrie]

20 to 25 HP is significant. I would venture it is about .5 lap time in typical 2 mile course.

 

Still, the point is you would have won the race, if:

1. Traffic wasn't a factor

2. No driver hic-up

 

In fact you would have won it by quite a margin.

 

Now I'm a realist. I realize the two factor above always play a role in racing.

 

I must say, I thought, from the video, your car and Chris's car is pretty even. If only I can see in car video from your car to see how hard you actually drove the car.

[msp282]

ahahha.. I don't have a video but I am too dumb to drive anything but balls out..... "saving the equipment" is not in my vocabulary.

 

 

20 to 25 HP is significant. I would venture it is about .5 lap time in typical 2 mile course.

 

Still, the point is you would have won the race, if:

1. Traffic wasn't a factor

2. No driver hic-up

 

In fact you would have won it by quite a margin.

 

Now I'm a realist. I realize the two factor above always play a role in racing.

 

I must say, I thought, from the video, your car and Chris's car is pretty even. If only I can see in car video from your car to see how hard you actually drove the car.

 

I think the bottom line on this crap is that I can pretty much get back to the same power I have with the AEM by using a Greddy Emanage Ultimate or the KPRO.... but why have to do that? I have to undo what I have to get back to the same power and spend a bunch more $. Why not just adjust the rules to allow the AEM since in the end it will be the same power? Just my take. I am trying to save myself the hassle and $ of undoing (selling my used crap) then buying new stuff / tuning, etc... to be back to exactly where I am.....

[6ghatch]

Andrie - it is me Scot.

 

My S2000 had AEM EMS that weekend...... I took the approach that Chris F posted above and duct taped my stock ECU to it to claim it was legal.

 

without the AEM i am down about 20-25whp from where it was that weekend.

 

I know i have braking advantage for sure....and probably have a small advantage in handling... i say small because I am burdened with 300-500extra pounds depending on which hybrid.....K20s and K24's on KPRO or AEM are making more HP/Torque than my F22 even on AEM....significantly more if I am on stock ECU with VAFC..... KPRO Won't be available for the S2000 until late July.....

 

I would say I have a disadantage on Aerodynamics due to the steep windsheild rake on the S2000....

 

Chris ended up running .6 seconds faster than me fastest lap vs fastest lap for the weekend and that was with me on AEM EMS....

 

Is this Scot?

 

After watching the last video of the race between the S2K and Chris D (repeatedly), I am pretty sure the car is about even. The K24 is only slightly faster. Even on the straight, he could not get by while in the draft.

 

Stock to stock, the F20C or F22C makes more power than K20 or K24. Which both has to run pretty much stock.

 

The S2K has better chassis, aerodynamic wise, and in term of overall chassis.

 

It only fair if S2K has more limitation than the K20 or K24 powered cars.

 

In the race, if it is not because driver hic-up the S2K would easily won the race.

 

The video clearly shown where the S2K is stronger, the handling and braking. 2 important aspect, while the Civic was only slightly better in the power department. I would say 2 out of 3 advantage ain't bad. You surely don't need all 3 advantage in order to win.

 

Andrie, If I had posted up the video of Sunday's race you would see that once I got the lead off the start (and made very few mistakes), it only took a few laps till Scot was a good distance behind me. check out http://www.mylaps.com/results/newResults.jsp?id=537866&highlight=1 to see lap times.

 

Also, BeaveRun is a small track that hides the HP advantage of most cars. If we were at VIR or Summit, you would see a much larger disadvantage in the HP department.

Edited June 1, 2007 by Guest

[Jeremy C.]

Scott,

 

You should email your regional director about this.

The rules request was submitted and denied on the basis that the S2k does have a distinct advantage in the braking and handling issue, not to mention the fact that you use all 4 tires for the purpose of racing instead of the 2 fronts like the rest of the HC gang. That coupled with the lack of information included with the request to support your claims, it was denied.

This type of rule charge has to be taken VERY seriously because it's an expensive modification that once let out of the bag, can't be put back in!

 

Also, about the piggyback issue!

And this issue has been beat into the ground already. If you want to put your AEM EMS in the car, and tape the stock ECU to it to call it a piggy back, fine. It may work in your region..

If you show up to nats with that setup or run in Socal, you will most certainly be DQ'ed.

 

The way the rule is written, the piggy back system needs to plug "into " the oem ECU. If I unplug your piggy back system, theoretically, the car should still be able to run!

You are allowed to reprogram the OEM ECU, but you can't replace it! An AEM EMS replaces the OEM ecu, it does not "piggy back" it!

[msp282]

Hey.... I had put in a rules request about 5 months ago which was denied, but I recently gave Keith a new one with the same requests but provided more detail...... not sure how much detail I need to provide though.

 

You can see from the video that even with AEM EMS I get out accelerated by Chris.... who gets out accelerated by a B20....

 

I don't want to sound like a whiner too much but I am just looking to have a chance.... it costs a pile of $ to race and to show up knowing I almost certainly lose is not what I have in mind.

 

Since I am able to get to the same power with the other systems, what is the problem with just allowing AEM EMS? Chris F's uncle has a race ready S2000 that is in the same boat.... already tuned on AEM EMS.

 

Point me in the right direction please.

 

thanks

Scot

 

 

Scott,

 

You should email your regional director about this.

The rules request was submitted and denied on the basis that the S2k does have a distinct advantage in the braking and handling issue, not to mention the fact that you use all 4 tires for the purpose of racing instead of the 2 fronts like the rest of the HC gang. That coupled with the lack of information included with the request to support your claims, it was denied.

This type of rule charge has to be taken VERY seriously because it's an expensive modification that once let out of the bag, can't be put back in!

 

Also, about the piggyback issue!

And this issue has been beat into the ground already. If you want to put your AEM EMS in the car, and tape the stock ECU to it to call it a piggy back, fine. It may work in your region..

If you show up to nats with that setup or run in Socal, you will most certainly be DQ'ed.

 

The way the rule is written, the piggy back system needs to plug "into " the oem ECU. If I unplug your piggy back system, theoretically, the car should still be able to run!

You are allowed to reprogram the OEM ECU, but you can't replace it! An AEM EMS replaces the OEM ecu, it does not "piggy back" it!

[Karl]

Was the aem ecu the only one avalible for the car for a long period of time? Why was all this money invested in a system that wasnt legal?

 

Part of the reason the request was not approved was the lack of information, lack of running H1 S2000s, and knowledge of their prep level. The other reason is cost the cost of the aem compared to other ecus.

 

If a car has been fully developed to the rules and is still getting beat, we will help. If you didnt already tell Keith, please list all current mods to the car. If you dont want to post it here or on the private forums you can email or pm it to me.

[Andrie]

Karl nailed it.

 

There were a few S2K running in West Coast. And with the way the rule was, it was very competitive. Some won convincingly.

 

Now, things might have changed. But the lack of data is the problem. The only 2 S2K left on the field (EC) has not even build their S2K to the max of the rule.

 

I think the cautious approach is right. Better off pissing a few people, other than pissing the entire field by allowing too much mods for the S2K and they come and kill the field.

[msp282]

alright you guys suck!!!!

 

So I will undo my fvcking AEM EMS and pay for some other management system that will yield me the same results I guess..... I was hoping to spare myself some $.

 

As for why I put in the AEM originally is just plain stupidity.... I misread the rules, then thought for sure they would accept a rule request but...... life is hard...

Edited June 3, 2007 by Guest

[msp282]

okay.... so is KPRO Legal or not? it will use a RSX-S ECU to work.

 

thanks

Scot

[Karl]

yes alternate honda ecus are legal.

 

7.1

k) Any OEM Honda or Acura ECU (including other models, domestic markets (JDM) and

generations) may be used, and may be relocated ONLY to facilitate cage installation.

Reprogramming of OEM ECU is allowed. Piggyback ECU’s that plug into the OEM ECU (e.g.

Hondata) are allowed. VAFC (VTEC/Air/Fuel) controllers or other devices that perform the same

function may be used. OBD0 equipped cars may update distributor and associated wiring to OBD1

or OBD2

[msp282]

Thank you.

 

 

 

 

yes alternate honda ecus are legal.

 

7.1

k) Any OEM Honda or Acura ECU (including other models, domestic markets (JDM) and

generations) may be used, and may be relocated ONLY to facilitate cage installation.

Reprogramming of OEM ECU is allowed. Piggyback ECU’s that plug into the OEM ECU (e.g.

Hondata) are allowed. VAFC (VTEC/Air/Fuel) controllers or other devices that perform the same

function may be used. OBD0 equipped cars may update distributor and associated wiring to OBD1

or OBD2

[6ghatch]

Scott,This type of rule charge has to be taken VERY seriously because it's an expensive modification that once let out of the bag, can't be put back in!

 

So the K-Pro for the S2000 is legal and cost's $2100 before tuning and labor. The AEM isn't and does the same thing for about half the price.

 

I don't even race an S2k and it's rules like this that drive me crazy...

[Chris F]

Scott,This type of rule charge has to be taken VERY seriously because it's an expensive modification that once let out of the bag, can't be put back in!

 

So the K-Pro for the S2000 is legal and cost's $2100 before tuning and labor. The AEM isn't and does the same thing for about half the price.

 

I don't even race an S2k and it's rules like this that drive me crazy...

 

But if Joe Tuner figures out that he can do more with a MOTEC than AEM EMS, and installs that for $2600 plus tuning, etc., he'd have to throw it away if it becomes illegal again.

 

I still think the cat is out of the bag, and Scot's AEM EMS is 100% legal. Scot, I'll protest you at Hyperfest to prove it! You can thank me later.

 

-Chris

[Andrie]

Chris Fries is exactly right. Opening it to AEM, will allow the flood gate for people that want to run Motec, or EFI Technology. The minimal cost for those system is $2600, and can cost over $8K.

 

I must clarify. To me, it doesn't matter if they allow AEM or any stand alone for S2K. In the end, any racing, will be limited to the budget of the team or individual.

 

To me a stand alone is a stand alone. So, let him run his AEM if he chooses so.

 

That being said, I'm not the rule board. So what I say will not carry any weight.

[wm577]

I'm not 100% sure the K-pro set up is even legal for the S2K because you have to change the sensors. Are sensors open or do they have to be OEM for that engine?

 

In the end Hondata is going to make a system for the S2K ECU so the s2K is going to have full tuned ECU's anyway, so they might as let them start doing it now with the K-pro system. If they are too fast, then hit them with more weight

[Andrie]

Here is my take on the S2K.

 

1. It is a GT car

2. Superior chassis and weight distribution

3. Rear Wheel Drive

4. comparing to K series, stock to stock the S2K make more power. Same modifications allowed to both engine with exception of ECU.

5. Weigh about 200 lbs to 300 lbs more depending on engine size.

 

Bottom line, the S2K is a GT car who competes with FWD grocery getting car. It has all the advantageous with only 200 lbs to 300 lbs weight penalty. What more do they need in order to beat on the FWD grocery getter? I truly think the S2K is the car to beat in Honda Challenge if it prepared to the max the rule allows. I would love to race one, but owning one limits my ability to race in other series.

 

No offense to John Oldt and Kelsey Smith. But I think the only reason the S2K hasn't won might be because the chassis need a good driver. Or maybe there are issue with their cars?

 

Scott did his first race after more than a year hiatus and it is evident that he is definitely a force to be reckon with. In his first race! and there already so much talk about it. Give it at least a few more races. And if Scott is smart, he'll sandbag and loose a few races by a big margin only to have the rule work in his favor right before Nationals and kick everyon'e asses then.

 

While we are at it, I also think:

1. The B20 should be the same weight with K20.

The B20 has the same displacement with K20. The rule allows lots of modification that easily put the B20 in more power than K20.

The only advantage on the K20 is the transmission and that only on certain tracks.

 

2. The penalty for the remote reservoir is too much for it to perform at the same level for non remote. Now, this might be a good thing, so people get to evaluate to run a cheaper shock without remote reservoir.

 

3. There should be no weight penalty for the cage that tied onto the chassis. The 30 lbs weight penalty is totally way too much.

[6ghatch]

While we are at it, I also think:

1. The B20 should be the same weight with K20.

The B20 has the same displacement with K20. The rule allows lots of modification that easily put the B20 in more power than K20.

The only advantage on the K20 is the transmission and that only on certain tracks.

 

 

 

Andrie, I totally agree. I submitted a rules request form for that and was shot down. and I was only suggesting a 75lbs increase!

 

Now you can use a block guard that has proven to add reliablity, add the GSR head which has better flow and raises compression then mate it to the Blox intake manifold and your talking K power and then some.

[Chris F]

Here is my take on the S2K.

3. There should be no weight penalty for the cage that tied onto the chassis. The 30 lbs weight penalty is totally way too much.

 

I agree for H1/H2. Maybe a good idea to keep the rule for H3-5 to discourage people from building horribly non-portable cars.

 

In H1 trim, the K20A (JDM R version is 220 HP) should make similar power to the US F20C (240 HP). The K series has free headwork and unlimited compression but the S2000 does not, it's closer to IT prep. I think this is a big difference. Don't forget to take that into account.

 

If they start kicking ass we can just make them add weight, its tough for them to get to minimum now anyway.

 

-Chris