Fuel Cell?

[comatb]

The fuel filler neck must remain stock however NASA allows fuel cells. This would be expensive but would allow much faster fueling during pit stops. A fuel cell would also provide much more accurate fuel level readings. Well what do you think.

[944-Spec#94]

The fuel filler neck must remain stock however NASA allows fuel cells. This would be expensive but would allow much faster fueling during pit stops. A fuel cell would also provide much more accurate fuel level readings. Well what do you think.

 

 

Bill,

What are you asking?

 

 

Fuel cells are very expensive or take alot of custom fabrication to install. With respect to enduro's 944 spec stricktly speaking is not an enduro class. This means that the rules have not been developed with respect to fueling. In races longer than 90 mintues where pits stops are optional there is a significant advantage to the later cars with the larger fuel tanks. In Enduro's with manditory pit stops this effect is negated some what.

[aeshultz]

Bill;

Fuel cells in a 944 are tricky - do a search on the Rennlist Racing forum, there's been some detailed discussions. Bottom line- it's a very custom fab situation.

How'd you do at Watkins?

[Tim Comeau]

Bill,

If you use the stock unleaded gas filler neck to fill a fuel cell, the process will be just as slow. If you keep the stock filler neck unmodified, then install a separate filler hole for a cell, that would be circumventing the intent of the rules, but would be faster. Remember, the rules are written to help ensure equality of the cars while keeping costs as low as possible. I, too, have seen big problems with a flat cell installed in 944's, mostly due to poor fuel pick up characteristics caused by the flat bottom of the cell, which has to be installed on top of the tranny. The stock tank is shaped like an inverted pyramid and works really well.

I wasn't a fan of allowing this fuel cell rule for 2 reasons. First, the fuel tank on a 944 is really well protected from the rear and the sides. Second, it's one of those things that guys see as "trick" and they'll do it regardless of real benefit or cost.

Dwain Dement at Vision Motorsports designed a cell for his 944 turbo that hung over both sides of the tranny like saddle bags. If I recall him telling me correctly, ATL or Fuel Safe (merged?) bought the rights to the design? Anyway, this seemed like a much better solution than a flat cell.

Has anyone ever heard of a stock 944 fuel tank being ruptured in a crash?

[bnewport]

So fuel cells are allowed under the rules?

[Tim Comeau]

Also, just to add to what Joe posted, and to add to the data base for newer guys, here's some facts.

I ran 2 hours and 10 minutes on an early tank (17.4 gallons) at Buttonwillow, at night, usually shifting at 5800 rpm. If I had had the larger (3.7 gallons) late fuel tank in my Zebra car, I believe I could have run 2 and a half hours straight. We had the tank topped off right to the fuel cap!

So it takes less than 30 seconds more in the pits to dump in that extra 3.7 gallons of fuel, but that time investment yields 20 minutes or so more on the track than the early cars.

On longer endurance races in NASA, like the 25 hours, you're only allowed to take on 10 gallons at a stop, so only the first tank full is an advantage.

[Spec-944#70]

Just to prove you all wrong about me! I agree with Tim. The cells are not needed and if you are looking to get one your money would be better spent on an LSD or making your car 100 moded and dyno'd to get you up to 137 RWHP. As for fueling the cars Tim Schilling has a pump for gas that puts it in the car at 12 gal/minute!!

[Tim Comeau]

POC has no restrictions on fueling apparatus, but NASA specifies 5 gallon plastic fuel jugs ONLY for the E2 class.

[Spec-944#70]

Cool then nothing would be gained via fuel cell.

[Tim Comeau]

Holy crap! We agreed again, Eric! Beers on me!

I don't even see how the fuel readings would be more accurate?

[944-Spec#94]

For reference at the last night 90 minute enduro I ran the full distance on one tank. 17.4 gallons filled to the top. I ran the entire distance chasing Jon Ariano with shifts a 6000 to 6200 rpm. I never backed off once. Firebird also has a 5/8+ mile straight away so that is always full bore and represents at least 1/2 of the track. We are probably full throttle for 3/4 of the track distance.

 

I still have fuel in the tank and figure it is good for at least 20 minutes more. Not sure about 30-40 more. I will be doing a track even this weekend and will see how far that remaining fuel gets me.

 

 

As for enduro rules. E2 is where the 944 spec class rules, but is not stricktly a 944 spec rule set. Point is that if 944 spec cars want to really start running enduros under the 944 spec class banner we need to figure some way to equalize the difference in fuel tanks depending on the race length. If the duration comes to a 1 stop for a small tank car and 0 stop for big tank car then it is not really a fair fights. However a 3 hr race is what a 1 stop for both cars? I think the no-mans land is a a 2 hr race.

 

Sure the small tank cars might make it short shifting, but this would still allow the big tank cars to run flat out.

 

Something to think about with respect to enduros depending on the fuel stop regulations. My personal feeling is that if a local group want to run and enduro with the 944 spec class the local class director needs to come up with some supplemental rules to balance things out.

 

BTW... in night races there is an issue about lighting, stock lights or not. Clearly moot point in day races, but at night? In the night race we just ran I did not both with the issue since it was a "bonus points" race anyway and just for fun.

[aeshultz]

Off topic here -but Tim; your link to your shop is not working. Can you email me at [email protected] - I have a question for you. Thanks,

Alan

[comatb]

I am asking the question because I think it needs to be discussed. In the spirit of 944 Spec I think that the stock unmodified filler neck is the right rule for the class in sprint races. However NASA and PCA allow fuel cells, which would be an advantage over using 5 gallon fuel jugs. I am familiar with the PCA enduro rules and the stock filler neck can be a disadvantage even with a mandatory five minutes pit stop. I just ran a hour and a half enduro at the Glen and did not refuel, which meant that I ran much of the race with a heavy fuel load. The removal of the filler neck restriction would have been better and is common practice on I class, SP2 and SP3 cars. Why is it not a legal modification? Someone will circumvent the filler neck with a dry break fuel cell. It's only a matter of time. We don't race in a vacuum with only 944 Spec cars.

[Tim Comeau]

The NASA enduro rules are pretty clear about the use of 5 gallon jugs and dry break systems in the E2 class, Bill. Drybreaks are NOT allowed except in ES and ESR.

[944-Spec#94]

If all SP1 cars have stock filler necks as currently called out where is the advantage? Cars in I, H or SP2 are in different classes. When it comes to adding fuel I have never needed to worry about the 5 gal fill-up during a 5 min stop. Always plenty of time. I guess it could be an issue if I needed to add 10 gallons at a stop, but I have never seen a PCA Enduro longer than 90 minutes. The west coast NASA Enduro series has 3 hr enduros and here in Arizona we have run a couple 2 hr enduros. Of course NASA also has the 25 hr event, but that is a very different type of event.

[Tim Comeau]

Don't feel bad for bringing this up, Bill.

You're right. It's important to get questions like this brought up and answered so that we're all on the same wavelength.

At NASA enduros, we routinely have to dump in 2 5 gallon jugs, and there's no mandatory time in the pits. But everybody in the E2 class has to use the same jugs.

[comatb]

If all SP1 cars have stock filler necks as currently called out where is the advantage? Cars in I, H or SP2 are in different classes. When it comes to adding fuel I have never needed to worry about the 5 gal fill-up during a 5 min stop. Always plenty of time. I guess it could be an issue if I needed to add 10 gallons at a stop, but I have never seen a PCA Enduro longer than 90 minutes. The west coast NASA Enduro series has 3 hr enduros and here in Arizona we have run a couple 2 hr enduros. Of course NASA also has the 25 hr event, but that is a very different type of event.

Joe since the class isn't as big here yet as in your regions (only three at Mid-Ohio and Watkins Glen), it is natural to want to compete with other 944's like I-class and SP2. They have modified filler necks and the possibility of using a fuel cell with a dry break. My focus is on 944 Spec, but we are all competitive and it's fun to have a 944 Spec car show well against other 944's.

[Tim Comeau]

I heard you showed well against the I class 944's, Bill.

Who was the guy in the black car with electrical problems?

[comatb]

Tim the flat Black 944 is an SP2 cup car run by Cris Brady.

[Tim Comeau]

Got it, thanks.

[944-Spec#94]

...My focus is on 944 Spec, but we are all competitive and it's fun to have a 944 Spec car show well against other 944's.

 

 

Bill I completely understand this line of thought. When I did my PCA races here I completed with G, H and F cars and would love to have a little more juice to keep up. Unfortunaly we can't concern ourselves with the speed of other classes when developing or maintaining our rules.

 

One of the nice things about 944 spec rules is that unlike many other classes (SP2 & SP3 included) our rules were developed from the ground up for ONLY the 8 valve NA 944. This has given us the freedom to set the rules where we feel there is the best balance between the factors of speed, reliablilty, safety, cost to build, cost to operate, competetiveness and fun to drive factor rather than being constrained by rules that don't take the unique properties of the 944 into account.

[944 cup]

......since the class isn't as big here yet as in your regions (only three at Mid-Ohio and Watkins Glen), it is natural to want to compete with other 944's like I-class and SP2. My focus is on 944 Spec, but we are all competitive and it's fun to have a 944 Spec car show well against other 944's.

 

Thanks for the report Bill. Good to hear the spec and Cup cars are competitve, including the 2.7L cars. Long been debated here.

[944 cup]

Nice drive Bill, took a look at the results from the Glen, and saw where you finished ahead of Cris' second place finish in SP2 in Saturday's first sprint, and also finished right behind the SP2 class winner.

 

Place Driver Class Total Best Lap

1 PECORI ROBERT SP2 38:10.153 2:23.445

1 COMAT BILL SP1 38:12.837 2:23.791

2 BRADY CRIS SP2 38:21.995 2:23.545

[comatb]

Guys I appreciate the good words, but I see reality as this:

 

Watkins Glen lap records(PCA)

SP2 Cris Brady 2:21.781 (2006)

SP1 Bill Comat 2:23.071 (2007)

 

Mid-Ohio lap records(PCA)

SP2 Larry Collins 1:45.480 (2007)

SP1 Bill Comat 1:48.512

 

I'm sure that a better driver could improve on my times and I'm having great fun trying to get faster. I still see the best SP2 car and driver combination as ultimately faster than a SP1 car. This may be me rationalizing the time spread shown above. Time will tell.

 

See you at Hyperfest.

[944 cup]

..... I still see the best SP2 car and driver combination as ultimately faster than a SP1 car. This may be me rationalizing the time spread shown above. Time will tell.

 

And I would agree Bill, under the SP1 and 2 rulesets. Though I think comparing track records from diffferent years is not a good a comparison as conditions can vary year to year.

 

But you did show again last weekend at the Glen that a good spec car and driver can be competitive with with a good Cup combination. You did the same last month at Mid Ohio:

 

Mid Ohio/2007

1 BRADY CRIS SP2 29:40.650 1:48.436

1 COMAT BILL SP1 29:42.000 1:48.664

 

Not sure that means anything in particular other then it's interesting to me.

 

Looking forward to meeting you at Hyperfest. Did you manage to get in for the practice day on Friday?