L98Terror Posted June 6, 2007 Share Posted June 6, 2007 Just a quick question, since there is no AWD Dyno at the track (So I've been told and I haven't seen one, maybe they will have one for Nationals) and the fact that boost can be turned up and down with out anyone knowing. How are these cars going to be policed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce L. Posted June 7, 2007 Share Posted June 7, 2007 by the fact that you'll burn in hell if you cheat! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shawn M. Posted June 7, 2007 Members Share Posted June 7, 2007 GPS and the known weight of the car. Ve Vill know much powah da kah makes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted June 7, 2007 Share Posted June 7, 2007 witchcraft Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ooldguy Posted June 8, 2007 Share Posted June 8, 2007 As there appears to be no way to police a turbo car on the track ( with due respect to GPS it can only calculate the h.p., for example, that it took to beat the field by a 10th of a second not the maximum power that could be generated ) this seems to be the reason ( that I've heard ) that SCCA has determined that's it's impossible and just bumps all turbo cars two classes. Robert Dudek Midwest Instructor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RodeoFlyer Posted June 9, 2007 Share Posted June 9, 2007 correct me if i'm wrong - Isn't SCCA's chicken $hit rules the reason we have NASA today? Can I have a thank you Jesus! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thom_S Posted June 9, 2007 Share Posted June 9, 2007 correct me if i'm wrong - Isn't SCCA's chicken $hit rules the reason we have NASA today? Can I have a thank you Jesus! Hallelujah brother Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaWorstPlaya Posted June 15, 2007 Share Posted June 15, 2007 correct me if i'm wrong - Isn't SCCA's chicken $hit rules the reason we have NASA today? Can I have a thank you Jesus! Haha ... Amen! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sterling Doc Posted June 15, 2007 Share Posted June 15, 2007 correct me if i'm wrong - Isn't SCCA's chicken $hit rules the reason we have NASA today? Can I have a thank you Jesus! Haha ... Amen! Agreed - it's why I'm with NASA. GPS can track acceleration at any point on the track. If acceleration is out of bounds with the reported power to weight ratio, then the cheater is busted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L98Terror Posted June 16, 2007 Author Share Posted June 16, 2007 correct me if i'm wrong - Isn't SCCA's chicken $hit rules the reason we have NASA today? Can I have a thank you Jesus! Haha ... Amen! Agreed - it's why I'm with NASA. GPS can track acceleration at any point on the track. If acceleration is out of bounds with the reported power to weight ratio, then the cheater is busted. I don't have GPS in my car are you saying AWD Turbio cars are required to have GPS? and who is looking at it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FocusTed Posted June 16, 2007 Share Posted June 16, 2007 correct me if i'm wrong - Isn't SCCA's chicken $hit rules the reason we have NASA today? Can I have a thank you Jesus! Haha ... Amen! Agreed - it's why I'm with NASA. GPS can track acceleration at any point on the track. If acceleration is out of bounds with the reported power to weight ratio, then the cheater is busted. I don't have GPS in my car are you saying AWD Turbio cars are required to have GPS? and who is looking at it? NASA has GPS units they can put in your car ar anytime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L98Terror Posted June 16, 2007 Author Share Posted June 16, 2007 correct me if i'm wrong - Isn't SCCA's chicken $hit rules the reason we have NASA today? Can I have a thank you Jesus! Haha ... Amen! Agreed - it's why I'm with NASA. GPS can track acceleration at any point on the track. If acceleration is out of bounds with the reported power to weight ratio, then the cheater is busted. I don't have GPS in my car are you saying AWD Turbio cars are required to have GPS? and who is looking at it? NASA has GPS units they can put in your car ar anytime. Without you knowing? If you know they put it in there you just run a little slower? Right Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spectator Racing Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 Without you knowing? If you know they put it in there you just run a little slower? Right They could certainly ease off slightly on the back straight where it would be most noticable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted June 21, 2007 National Staff Share Posted June 21, 2007 Actually, it is noticable every time the car accelerates. And, if the driver is backing off to the point that the car isn't using more power than it should? Obviously, if a driver rips a time that is 1-2 seconds faster in a previous session, then it is likely that the unit will stay in the car for the duration. Also, GPS is a tool to help us decide if it is necessary to seal a car and take it to an AWD Dyno shop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 Without you knowing? If you know they put it in there you just run a little slower? Right then you have to explain why your car was 3 seconds faster in that other session with supposedly no changes.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L98Terror Posted June 21, 2007 Author Share Posted June 21, 2007 Actually, it is noticable every time the car accelerates. And, if the driver is backing off to the point that the car isn't using more power than it should? Obviously, if a driver rips a time that is 1-2 seconds faster in a previous session, then it is likely that the unit will stay in the car for the duration. Also, GPS is a tool to help us decide if it is necessary to seal a car and take it to an AWD Dyno shop. Explain how this GPS thing works? You going off Accel Gs? That's what I would think but we were running GPS last weekend and my car had higher accel Gs than my buddy's yet he had a lower HP/Weight ratio. Does it matter once a time is ripped off whether its a second or two faster than any other session once it's in the books it's in the books, correct? TTers don't need to back up thier times. Really they could just rip off a good time back down the boost and it's all good, I'm I correct? Some people never back up a good lap, I think you should have to back up a good lap, JMO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L98Terror Posted June 21, 2007 Author Share Posted June 21, 2007 Without you knowing? If you know they put it in there you just run a little slower? Right then you have to explain why your car was 3 seconds faster in that other session with supposedly no changes.... I don't know, a certain AWD Turbo car at Gratton (I don't think in any way shape or form this guy was cheating) ran a 127.1xx his second fastest lap was a 127.9xx and on Sunday ran a best of 128.650 your looking at a second and a half and no one raised and eyebrow. For reference I ran a 127.494 on Sat & a 127.465 on Sunday so it's not like track conditions varied. Do you have to explain it? I don't think you do. I didn't see anything anywhere that say you do or that you need to back up a good time. You could turn up the boost rip off a good lap than turn it back down for the rest of the event and know one would ever be the wiser. If someone wanted to cheat they could and nobody would catch it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 that might fly locally, but lets see them try it at Nationals... I'd love to see what Greenbaum would do to someone that would get DQ'd like that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spectator Racing Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 Why should Nationals matter any more than regionals? All are sanctioned, points-earning events. If anything, a regional title is harder to get as you have to earn points in many many events. In Nationals, you can show up, slap on a new set of tires and run one lucky fast lap each day to be crowned champion of the whole continent. Has anyone else noticed the classing for AWD cars in TTS / TTU? You lose 0.5 points for AWD, but then get it back by being a 4 door. Off the top of my head I can only think of two AWD cars that are coupes: Nissan Skyline - nobody races one of these DSM Talon / Eclipse - more realistic but I have yet to see one at a NASA event The Audis, Mitsu's and Subarus are the hot ticket these days, and all are 4 doors...so an easily attainable 8.7:1 pwr to weight and AWD. Quite an effective combination. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted June 21, 2007 National Staff Share Posted June 21, 2007 Actually, we have had Skylines at NASA events. What about the Porsches? Once you get to the level of TTS/TTU cars, the AWD factor is not as important--ie. we see AWD sedans performing about the same as RWD Z06's, etc. It does make a big difference in the lower classes though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StealthTT Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 The DSM's big brother, the Dodge Stealth & Mitsubishi 3000GT are another example of an AWD two-door, but I can't think of another. I don't understand the point give-back for 4 doors. All great sports cars have had two doors. Why is there a special concession for people haulers? Sure, 4 door cars were less stiff in the past, but not now. The EVO and Subarus have quite a stiff chassis. Chassis experts say they're better than my 15 year old coupe. I have to strip my car down, seam weld it, and add a cage to achieve similar flex/rigidity numbers that these cars come with stock. I'm not griping, I just can't think of a reason that 4 doors are deemed as negative "points-wise" as awd is considered a positive. Maybe both of these numbers need trimmed down to more accurately reflect their disadvantage/advantage? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 Why should Nationals matter any more than regionals? All are sanctioned, points-earning events. If anything, a regional title is harder to get as you have to earn points in many many events. In Nationals, you can show up, slap on a new set of tires and run one lucky fast lap each day to be crowned champion of the whole continent. Has anyone else noticed the classing for AWD cars in TTS / TTU? You lose 0.5 points for AWD, but then get it back by being a 4 door. Off the top of my head I can only think of two AWD cars that are coupes: Nissan Skyline - nobody races one of these DSM Talon / Eclipse - more realistic but I have yet to see one at a NASA event The Audis, Mitsu's and Subarus are the hot ticket these days, and all are 4 doors...so an easily attainable 8.7:1 pwr to weight and AWD. Quite an effective combination. it shouldn't, but does your region take TT seriously enough (or have the spare cash) to have the GPS boxes and use them for compliance? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spectator Racing Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 Actually, we have had Skylines at NASA events. What about the Porsches? Once you get to the level of TTS/TTU cars, the AWD factor is not as important--ie. we see AWD sedans performing about the same as RWD Z06's, etc. It does make a big difference in the lower classes though. I think you've just proven my point - if you have AWD sedans performing as well as a Corvette Z06, why do they get an extra advantage for being 4 door vehicles? Don't get me wrong, Greg, I know you guys have a tough job with these types of issues. I also am of the mindset that we can't let NASA become a political mess like the SCCA with too many rules. But the 4 door "disadvantage" seems like an easy one to me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spectator Racing Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 it shouldn't, but does your region take TT seriously enough (or have the spare cash) to have the GPS boxes and use them for compliance? I guess that's a question for our local directors, I don't have the answer for it. But a much cheaper solution would be to have the dyno shop "seal" the boost controller after the run that is to be used for competition classing. A little piece of tape makes the playing field level... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Graber Posted June 22, 2007 Share Posted June 22, 2007 2Dr AWD Porsche 911 C4 Audi A4 BMW 330XI Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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