Problems w/ my car while running hpde @ willow springs

[strsi]

I was just at willow springs running hpde, but i had to cut the day short because i ran into a problem. I've checked some things already, but i cant figure out what it is. I will be taking it to the mechanic on Tues to have him look at it, unless someone might know what my problem is.

 

The car is a '94 civic dx hatch. Totally stock other then omni power coilovers & an intake. Sits on konig heliums with 195/50 R15 falken ziex 512 tires. I've never had a single problem with the car on the street or in my 2 previous track events (1 at the streets of willow & 1 at the main track of willow springs).

 

Here is what the track looks like...

 

Temp was over 100 degrees.

 

 

Anyways, session 1 the car ran fine. About 2 hours later I go out for session 2. No problems during the warmup lap.

 

Lap 2- i take turns 3 & 4 in 2nd gear. Shift to 3rd between turns 4 & 5. As i turn in for turn 5 all of a sudden it sounds like i'm dragging soda cans or something. I let of the gas, sound goes away so i get going again. NO problems again till turn 9. I run turn 8 in 4th full throttle (normal for me). Tap the brakes before turn 9 & then run it almost full throttle. Just before apex of turn 9 it all of a sudden feels like my car is trying to tow something very heavy. Thats the best way i can describe it. I was running smooth & out of nowhere my car suddenly slows down enough to where my head snaps foward. I staid on the gas for a few seconds & the Engine was trying to run hard but it just felt like the car was be pulled back or something. I let off the gas quite a bit but it still feels like i'm being held back. It doesn't feel normal again until a slow down a bunch as i pull into the hot pits.

 

So i pull in to the hot pits. Tech look under the car, i'm not dragging anything, no fluids leaking, coolant temp is fine...

 

I wait a few min & go back out. The lap was fine until turn 9 when i have the exact same problem again. So i pull of the track. I look under the hood, under car, check fluids; it all looks fine. Engine sounds fine & revs smoothly.

 

Fearing i destroy something if i go back out, i just decide to try to limp it home. However, on the drive home the car feels great. No problems at all. Engine is responsive & feels like it has the normal amount of power it always has. I figure it must be the transmission or clutch. So on the way home i try some hard accelerations from a stop & hard shifts to see if the clutch will slip, it all feels fine. No problems all the way home even though i kept trying to be hard on it to feel the same problem again & give me a better idea of what it is.

 

So basically it only seems to have a problem when i hit a high speed sweeping turn. Which i cant really duplicate on the street to test it. Not that i'm pulling tons of g's with my crappy all season tires, but it seems i must be related to the force put on it as i go through a turn like that. Axles or something maybe?

 

If anyone has experienced this or has an idea i'd appreciate it. Maybe i can solve the problem before i have to pay a mechanic for the labor.

 

Thanks

[Renesisfury]

did you check for fuel level? Sounds like a fuel starvation problem

[strsi]

Yea, quite a few people have suggested that. I forgot to mention it, but the tank was almost completly full. I dont know the condition of the fuel filter though, but i doubt it could be bad enough to cause that?

[99HOSS]

.. tire rub?

 

Have you pulled all 4 tires 'n wheels to see if there are any rub marks on anything?

[blazinsrt]

Just an Idea.....Do you still have a cat in your car? If so check (hit the side of the can) and see if you can hear the baffels rattling. If you do, you need a new cat. The only reason that I would suggest it is because if the baffles get loose and clog the exhaust that would make the motor as if it were pulling a heavy load.

[NorrFam]

Had the cat problem happen to me on the street, really dogged the car almost to a stop. But on other hand,only takes one tank of fuel to screw up your filter, thats why its there and a cheap fix even if it isnt the problem.

[strsi]

I just took a good look under the car & thereis definatly no rub anywhere under the car or fenders. There are no fluids leaking & everything appears to be normal.

 

i kicked the exhaust system & cat around & there was no rattling sound inside.

 

Yea, i will definatly replace the fuel filter just in case cuz its cheap & easy enough to do, although i dont think its whats causing the problem.

 

I just took the car for about a 40 min drive through a local mountain road. It has a lot of sweeping turns & of course for my own saftey & others i did not take them at anywhere near the speed that i was taking turn 9 at willow, but the car felt great. I didn't have a single problem at all.

 

So i'm totally stumped. I'm gonna have my mechanic look at it on tues, but i dont know if there's much he can do if i cant even get the car to replicate the problem it was having on the track.

 

Is it at all possible that maybe just the heat of the day got to it. Maybe a sensor or something shorted out? It was over 100 degrees & i had it parked in direct sunlight in the pits w/ the windows rolled up

 

I would just hate to get out on the track next time & have the same problem again after paying $150 to be out there.

[Ultimate Altima]

Maybe it was a slight oil starvation problem, maybe you need a baffloed pan. I think you'd notice if there was any damage to the motor, but you may have stopped turning and allowed the oil to get through the motor again in time to stop damage.

 

Just my $0.02

[GOFASTT]

vapor lock? sounds like a issue I had in my 914 once driving thru Nevada air temp 100+ road temp 100++++ the gas started to vaporize in the fuel line.. the car would run then nothing- wait a few minutes run then nothing. Finally found a fuel station with some shade- waited a bit hosed everything down and drove on. When your in the pits between sessions- more so on hot days- its good to have a canopy to pull the car under- make sure open everything up and it also lets you get out of the sun and stay hydrated.

[REDRAGN53]

The "cans of soda" sounds like my 94 1.6 SOHC Si that I blew up at The Rock in NC during a series of high g sweepers...it started in the NASCAR banking and had the vibration and noises you describe so I slowed...it went away. I then got back on the gas during a hard right hander and it lost power and slowed as you described... a few seconds later I heard what was later discovered to be #1 rod snapping.

 

Upon disassembly the block had holes out both sides...rod was in the oil pan and the clutch was missing a few of the springs fron the hub.

 

Your problem could be serious oil starvation as mentioned in another post... do you hear any knocking or strange sounds at idle?

 

Since you ruled out all other suggestions...could it be your axle binding in the corner? Long shot but check it out to make sure it is ok since the drivers side axle (side that would be loaded on a right hand turn) is longer on your car and fails quicker.

 

Another long shot...what is the condition of your distributor? The internal coils/ignitors are bad to fail and yours could be near failing and the heat soak caused issues?

[strsi]

I had posted the same question on Honda-tech & the answers i'm getting seem to indicate that this problem is somewhat common with civics. I guess if the gas tank is basically not completly full then sometimes in turns like that the fuel sloshes to the side & eventually doesnt get picked up properly. Whether this is my problem or not, i'm not sure, but i hope its all it was.

 

The engine is running great now, no odd sounds or anything. Accelerates smoothly, idles well... So i dont think it was serious oil starvation, hopefully.

 

I'm hoping that the sound i heard earlier was unrelated to my problem in turn 9. Maybe i just ran something over & dragged it or something...

 

Axles & distributor visually look good. But i'm gonna take it by my mechanics soon & run the problem by him, let him take a look & see what he thinks... Hopefully its not bad news.

[mpowers]

just a thought, but when was the last time you bleed your brakes? If they over heat and the fluid is old the calipers will depress from fluid expansion causing a similar issue. Thus causing a noise too.

 

This would not show up on the street unless you riding around with you foot on the brake.

 

Just a thought,

Mike

[strsi]

That interesting to know. I did not know that would happen.

 

But i did bleed the brakes the day before the event...

 

Been busy, havn't had a chance to take it to the mechanics yet but i definatly will before the next event in aug.

[MOTORGOSPEL Ministries]

Hello,

 

I don't know Hondas very well.

 

Could you get enough body roll if bushings are worn to exceed the intended range of motion of the CV joints?

 

Best wishes,

[JW Racing]

it was hot as heck at the track that day, could be the brake fluid.

what kind of pads and fluid you runnin?

[strsi]

nothing all that special...

 

valvoline synpower brake fluid

satisfied gs6 pads

 

if that is indeed the problem would it make sence for it to happen there in turn 9?

I run turn 8 full throttle 4th gear. Then brake before i turn into turn 9. Its not real heavy braking, but its more then a quick tap. Then i release the brakes, turn in, and a little after turn in my car would just suddenly lose a lot of speed as i explained. I had no power pretty much until just past apex.

 

Does this sound like what would happen if the fluid overheats, thus expanding & causing the calipers to depress, as mpowers suggested? That is a completly new concept to me, i had no idea that could happen...

[JW Racing]

was the gas tank getting empty?IMO fuel, it would cut out more distinctly, sounds like brake drag or a wheel bearing expanding.

 

you said 2nd lap.. id say after 4,5 hard laps you could be vaporlocking with horrible fluid. 2 is kind of quick and its not like a dx engine needs brakes at big willow really because its low power. but you do have dx calipers and rotors and those things are hideous. . turns 1, 3 and 5 could really do it on your car if its not ready for 100 plus ambient temp track beatings

 

it was a blowtorch and many cars were having issues of all sorts. maybe a cooler day will help too . Im not saying this is your problem i would need to look the car over but this is my opinion.

[strsi]

well thanks for your help. it helps narrow it down. the gas tank was still pretty full, around 3/4 of a tank. It didn't sound like the engine was cutting out as if it had no fuel. It still felt like it was running well but that it was just being held back.

which kind of makes sence if the brakes were somehow getting applied due to fluid expansion.

 

yea its all stock dx brake parts. i know there not all that good so i suppose it makes sence. Small rotors & calipers plus a hot day.

 

The other thing you mentioned was an expanding wheel bearing. I assume that would just happen from heat & cause some binding.

 

Thanks again for the help. It will really help narrow down the search.

[JW Racing]

I will ask around and see if i know anyone who had a similar issue with dx.I think the pistons were hanging up from the heat.

 

the wheel bearing will howl and you can hear it clearly.

 

One more...Check the rear drum shoes as well, on rare occasions they sometimes can have pieces that break off and that could wedge in there between the drum and shoe and cause a bind.I just mention that because thats happened to me before in my hatch. Then as the piece wore down they freed up, lol.

 

good luck and keep us updated

[strsi]

i didn't hear any howling sound, so probably not the bearing then.

 

the rear shoes are almost brand new, but i will definatly take a look to make sure nothing broke free in there.

 

Based on what i know now & what i felt at the track, it really does seem like the brakes being applied due to fluid expansion was probably it. I hope thats all it was at least. Well if everything else checks out fine, then i guess i'll be upgrading my brake fluid or avoiding 100+ degree days, lol.

 

Thanks again for everyones help.