'08 TT rules

[JesseWhite]

First off I want to say that Greg and company have done a pretty good job, a lot of cars are showing up at TT, a lot of different cars are winning and that speaks to a lot of things being done right. TTR-TTS is for fast cars and its going to get expensive to play there and honestly I think it should because fast cars are good for the image and it offers an outlet for guys not doing wheel to wheel for whatever reason. Cost control in TTG-TTA could be considered. I don't think a spec tire would work because of sizes, but I think certainly limiting TTA-TTG to non-DOT R tires could be considered to control cost.

[IS300]

Since this is my first year with NASA, I will say one of the large attractions to NASA is the ruleset. I am not harping on other organizatinos because I am still active with others, for this year.

 

I will say that you can quickly decline down a slippery slope when trying to limit wear ratings, tire types or brands. Unfortunately racing is not quite as cheap as my wife would like , but that's why I don't run in one of the upper classes.

 

I think that you can use a higher wear rated tire at a wider size and get close to the same grip, but set-up would be much more critical. One of the advantages of DOT-R tires is that they hide mistakes that hacks like me make regularly

[heavychevy]

If removing weight is a specific advantage ( positive points ) then the same degree of being " over weight " would be an equal disadvantage.

I don't see how positive weight would be less of a - then negative weight would be a + ?

 

Another point - the tire width spec for each class might be worth a look as , for ex. - a 2000# Elise get's a -16 pts. for the OEM tire size

- a 3488# C4 gets a +16 pts. for the OEM tire size

 

I, still, don't get that one.

 

Robert Dudek

NASA Midwest

 

I concur, I think my car may get penalized as well (Porsche 996 TT) for the tires. You should not have to put smaller tires on your car to run at the track, never ever.

 

The weight is just as bad of an issue, I agree with the positive points for weight. Some cars are left to be in no mans land right now because you arent any where near being able to move up or down a class. And with Cup cars running in TTU (we see a lot of them in the SE) it's nearly impossible for a street car to beat a well driven cup car ( at least the 997's)

 

 

I would like to know more on the SUR class, cant find anything on it. It should be made very competitive as in a street TTU type class. Street Legal cars with high hp. There has to be one of those made at some point with the power our cars are getting these days.

[hagakure]

TT has become popular enough that, simply put, people want to win. IT's racing. I for one would hate to see cars up to TTA resigned to street tires, it would suck completely, for many reasons. My vote is to grow th eseries, and forget about "street cars". If you want to drive your street car, stay in HPDE....my 2 cents.

[heavychevy]

TT has become popular enough that, simply put, people want to win. IT's racing. I for one would hate to see cars up to TTA resigned to street tires, it would suck completely, for many reasons. My vote is to grow th eseries, and forget about "street cars". If you want to drive your street car, stay in HPDE....my 2 cents.

 

Why not have both. I thought that was the purpose of classing. I think the goal is not to have TOO many classes that each car on track can be in a different one, but not to have too few either. There is nothing wrong with having a street legal class. TTR (and TTU appearantly) are for race cars, built by man or factory.

 

Porsche is the problem becasue they are the main ones that make the factory race cars that are so popular and readily available. I'll be in one when I'm ready for it, but I still dont think it should be in the same class as my street car. They are going to make me break out the real slicks around here.

 

 

 

Personally I think you have to look at what the car is capable of. The lap records at RA are definitely breakable, but when you look at the cup cars potential, if cory drove that car, he could probably set a time that no street car could beat

[kbrew8991]

First off I want to say that Greg and company have done a pretty good job, a lot of cars are showing up at TT, a lot of different cars are winning and that speaks to a lot of things being done right. TTR-TTS is for fast cars and its going to get expensive to play there and honestly I think it should because fast cars are good for the image and it offers an outlet for guys not doing wheel to wheel for whatever reason. Cost control in TTG-TTA could be considered. I don't think a spec tire would work because of sizes, but I think certainly limiting TTA-TTG to non-DOT R tires could be considered to control cost.

 

sizing issues again

 

find me a decent performance tire in 205/50/14 front and 225/50/14 rear. Something like a Kumho MX, or Falken Azenis, or Hankook, or even the $$$$$$$$ Advan Neova.

 

(you can't, cause I try to run them on the street, the best I can do is the horribly lackluster Yokohama ES100, so I don't bother and run allseasons instead)

 

You can spend $$$$ on street tires as well, and they don't last hardly any longer if you toss em once they've peaked. Look at ST_ classes in SCCA Autocross if you don't believe me. shaving brand new tires, tossing them after 3-4 events... sounds almost like Hoosiers... and I bet its no cheaper

[StealthTT]

I'm looking at this in a "grow the series" mentality. I've heard from countless people that they want to do well, but can't/won't use Hoosiers or similarly priced tires. Boohoo, right? Racing isn't cheap. Well as gas prices rise, stock dividends, real estate and other extra money sources drop in returns, the outlook for racing growth is not looking so hot. Now look at the success or groups that limit the wear rating in certain classes. They're growing very well.

 

Well, now let's look at it from a points standpoint. We all know that to have a winning car (forget the driver for this discussion) you have to use the points in the most beneficial manner.

 

a) 5 points to use a Hoosier or equivalent over a Toyo RA1 or equivalent

b) 5 points to drop 65 pounds

c) 4 points to increase displacement on a 3.0 liter 5.3% to a 3.16 liter

d) 7 points to add dry sump oil system (without lowering the motor, that's 15)

 

Which will get you around the track quicker? In my opinion "a" will net a much faster laptime. There should be more points for the Hoosier or equivalent tire because they're more beneficial. I don't mind if someone wants to outspend me, because ultimately I'm racing me, but on the other hand a point should equal a point.

 

p.s. Toyo is a big supporter of NASA. Hoosier won't even discuss it.

[kbrew8991]

The NT01 outperformed the Hoosier shaved in GRM's latest tire test, and its a 5pt tire and wears just slightly faster than RA1s.

 

The people that are whining about not wanting to buy race tires to run in TT should just run anyway, have fun, and worry about being competitive when their budget improves. Half of the 45 people we had at NASA-SE @ Road Atlanta were in that boat...

 

the ideal setup for my car:

7 points - asterix

5pts - custom Koni 8611 shock insert coilovers, massive spring rates

5pts - NT01s

1pt - 225 width rears (don't get me started on the split size issue)

1pt - catback or additional weight reduction

 

what I'm running for Nationals (budget issues):

7 points - asterix

10pts - V710s

negative 1pt - 205 rears

3pts - Koni SA shocks

stock springs, swaybars, etc... body roll galore

 

don't tell me that a 5pt tire setup can't do better than a 10pt/9pt tire setup, they just aren't being creative enough with their mods IMHO

[cosm3os]

Just more fodder--don't know how this fits in with anyone's argument, but it is tire related.

 

I'm running a gutted M3 that I prepared specifically for TTD. DA coilovers, all metal/sperical, makes weight by 60lbs, and I run either +5 or +7 tires (19pts total). The guy that has been most competitive with me drives an S2000--totally stock (actually has to remove some aero cause the base car doesnt' have it) and +10 tires (kooks) (17 points total). He and I have been dead even all year, the only advantage going to the guy who knows the track better.

 

What does it mean? I dunno, except that, although tire is the most important factor in lap times, how a given tire is going to work on a given car with a given set up can vary significantly making this whole classification thing impossible to perfect.

[RACER-X]

TT has become popular enough that, simply put, people want to win. IT's racing. I for one would hate to see cars up to TTA resigned to street tires, it would suck completely, for many reasons. My vote is to grow the series, and forget about "street cars". If you want to drive your street car, stay in HPDE....my 2 cents.

 

 

TT and HPDE have become popular. Sure I want to win, but it's not why I moved up from HPDE. Its the next step to getting on the track with a full out race car. Learning the tracks, car set-up and driving techniques and lets not forget the real reason we're all here.....For all that free BEER! , it's just so damn fun, what an adrenaline rush!!!!

Now don't get me wrong, some people will never move from HPDE or TT and that's fine. That's where they're comfortable at, for whatever reason. Not everybody wants to have or can afford to have a full out race car. That's where TT comes in. It's a step up from HPDE and from my take, geared tward street cars.

[heavychevy]

TT has become popular enough that, simply put, people want to win. IT's racing. I for one would hate to see cars up to TTA resigned to street tires, it would suck completely, for many reasons. My vote is to grow the series, and forget about "street cars". If you want to drive your street car, stay in HPDE....my 2 cents.

 

 

TT and HPDE have become popular. Sure I want to win, but it's not why I moved up from HPDE. Its the next step to getting on the track with a full out race car. Learning the tracks, car set-up and driving techniques and lets not forget the real reason we're all here.....For all that free BEER! , it's just so damn fun, what an adrenaline rush!!!!

Now don't get me wrong, some people will never move from HPDE or TT and that's fine. That's where they're comfortable at, for whatever reason. Not everybody wants to have or can afford to have a full out race car. That's where TT comes in. It's a step up from HPDE and from my take, geared tward street cars.

 

Personally I think there is less of a need for TTR than there is for something between TTS and TTU. How many TTR cars do you see at the events???? Maybe 3,4 and this is at RA, one of the biggest events of the year, and most of the cars in it dont belong. At other events you may see one,two at the most, because the people couldnt tech. If there was a group say 7:1 up to 8:69:1 hp/weight, that group would be much more interesting IMO. Then you have the super duper race cars for the rest of TTU and the open wheelers for TTR. But right now TTR is an accessory for people who dont tech. ANd can stay that way but adding a TT(insert letter here) class would add a lot of spice to Time Trials.

 

That cup car had slicks (non DOT) on it and I dont mind, but I just want that to be remembered when I show up with slicks on my car.

[phoenixR34]

Drastically changing the rules every year is going to turn people away, rather than gain interest. Likewise, a class at nationals with seven cars is hardly a large enough sampling size (cars and talent) to determine which cars need to go up and which ones should go down.

 

TT is in its infancy still... I'm willing to bet that 80% or more of the TT entrants are doing it for fun or "because they can", not necessarily to build nationals winning cars. I hate to make a comparison, but when I went to Solo2 Nationals a few years ago, there were 30+ cars (sometimes as high as 70) in each class. The majority of the drivers have been to nationals several times and all had cars built to the max-limit of the rules.

 

Between PT and TT in Arizona (80+ cars total), I can only think of a *handful* of guys who purposely bought a certain car and built it exactly to the limit of the rules to run PT/TT. The rest are doing it for fun and are running in the class in which their car fell into.

 

If JoeBob buys/builds a Toyota and it falls into TTC, but he's not competitive since his car is randomly put together, are we supposed to monitor his results to propose classing/rules changes? Compared to say, 40 "Greg Greenbaums" running who have specific TTC built cars..

 

Local results are fun to watch, but not usually an indicator IMO. Nationals are where the "serious" people go, but given that the rules aren't even a year old yet, and nationals have only happened once, and the classes are relatively small, can you use that for an indicator?

 

People spend a year(s) building a car for a certain class.. mine jumped two classes from 2006-2007 with the new rules. I've spent six months planning out my new car to be "built" for TTB/PTB so I can run against my friends. I'm gonna be pissed (as will they) if our cars get moved all over the place, again, in 2008.

[cosm3os]

I think we have a couple of different discussions going on here: 1) suggestions for specific rules changes; and 2) what is the purpose of TT and its future.

 

As to the second, the reality is that TT is a racing/competitive endeavor. Like any racing class, there's always going to be the guy(s) that pulls out all (or more) stops. It is inevitable that if TT continues to grow, more and more guys will be building purpose-built cars that maximize the rules to their advantage, and the days of the daily driver TT car are numbered (if they want to be truly competitive). Of course, results will vary depending on driver skill and knowledge of track, but a no-compromises track car has a better chance than a car that has to do daily duty. And don't forget the "advantage" that one has when he knows that if the car breaks, it can just go home on the trailer vs. if it breaks I got no way to get to work tomorrow!

[phoenixR34]

but a no-compromises track car has a better chance than a car that has to do daily duty. And don't forget the "advantage" that one has when he knows that if the car breaks, it can just go home on the trailer vs. if it breaks I got no way to get to work tomorrow!

 

Well, not everyone cares if they're driving their daily driver! Some people are reserved when track driving their DD's, but not everyone!

 

Frankly, I see no need to cater the series to people who are driving their daily drivers. In my region I encourage everyone to have roll cages/bars, firesuits, fire systems etc.. TT is usually much faster than PT and even though people aren't purposely going wheel to wheel, the risk is just the same. There is a significant difference between TT and HPDE in Arizona.. TT and race group however, aren't so much different. I'm sure everyone has their opinion on how "serious" TT should be, but if there are guys with race cars taking it seriously, everyone has to step up in one way or another.

 

I don't see the point in giving an allowance for people on non-R Compound tires. I think Ken hit it, in that good street tires are as expensive as R-Compounds. I also think that if someone really wanted, they could make a competitive car on street tires. It's doubtful PT will ever make space for street tires, so TT shouldn't either.

[kbrew8991]

street tires are slower, to not give them credit and force everyone to at least 5pt R-comps is kinda silly and something some other club would do...

 

it would be just as silly as forcing someone to only run street tires

 

IMHO, this rules set is all about choices

[phoenixR34]

street tires are slower, to not give them credit and force everyone to at least 5pt R-comps is kinda silly and something some other club would do...

 

it would be just as silly as forcing someone to only run street tires

 

IMHO, this rules set is all about choices

 

You're not going to force anyone to take any points. You're forgetting that there's a penalty for running R Compounds, same as suspension mods, weight reduction or anything else.

 

I could run shaved Neovas for zero points, then use my +5 elsewhere. Will it be the most optimal? Who knows, but people on street tires are in a sense getting a +5 credit already, as the rest of the field takes a +5 hit (or more) for running R Comps. I can think of a couple cars that could run street tires and be competitive in certain classes.

[StealthTT]

 

I could run shaved Neovas for zero points, then use my +5 elsewhere. Will it be the most optimal? Who knows, but people on street tires are in a sense getting a +5 credit already, as the rest of the field takes a +5 hit (or more) for running R Comps. I can think of a couple cars that could run street tires and be competitive in certain classes.

 

I believe that Hoosiers or similar will always be an advantage over tires with less grip. Under what conditions will they not provide a significant advantage?

 

I can only think of one and it could be corrected by driving less aggressive. If, due to the increased lateral traction, the springs and anti-sway bars were unable to keep the tire flat to provide a full contact patch, then you would see no significant advantage. But even then you'd trade off less aggressive turn-in to combat the roll.

 

In almost every case, I've seen people slap on a set of Hoosiers and knock 2 seconds off their best laptime on non-R comps. I don't see people doing that when removing 65 pounds.

[phoenixR34]

 

I believe that Hoosiers or similar will always be an advantage over tires with less grip.

 

Well of course they will... are you ever going to be able to equalize tires with points? Every track record in my region is on Hoosiers or slicks, except for one class, and that's with the higher, 2007 points system.

 

But for example, it would be possible to take a 350Z (TTC), use the tire points, run in TTD on Neovas and be competitive.. especially if there's weight reduction available or any of the zero-points mods are worthwhile. I'm sure there are other cars that are on the verge of bumping up, or could move down a class and could be competitive on street tires.

[kbrew8991]

theres a bit more varitey in the SE records, but its usually someone on 5pt tires or 10pt tires that ends up holding track records

[RACER-X]

I think we have a couple of different discussions going on here: 1) suggestions for specific rules changes; and 2) what is the purpose of TT and its future.

 

As to the second, the reality is that TT is a racing/competitive endeavor. Like any racing class, there's always going to be the guy(s) that pulls out all (or more) stops. It is inevitable that if TT continues to grow, more and more guys will be building purpose-built cars that maximize the rules to their advantage, and the days of the daily driver TT car are numbered (if they want to be truly competitive). Of course, results will vary depending on driver skill and knowledge of track, but a no-compromises track car has a better chance than a car that has to do daily duty. And don't forget the "advantage" that one has when he knows that if the car breaks, it can just go home on the trailer vs. if it breaks I got no way to get to work tomorrow!

 

 

You can't have #1 without #2. We need to know where TT is going first, then we can discuss rules. You can't have it one way this year and another way next. Nothing against you Kyle, but you have a "purpose-built" car, and it showes. Your doing great with it. I think what everybody needs to know is which way is TT going? With a purpose-built or a street type car???? After knowing this, we can discuss which rules to change if any.

[heavychevy]

I think we have a couple of different discussions going on here: 1) suggestions for specific rules changes; and 2) what is the purpose of TT and its future.

 

As to the second, the reality is that TT is a racing/competitive endeavor. Like any racing class, there's always going to be the guy(s) that pulls out all (or more) stops. It is inevitable that if TT continues to grow, more and more guys will be building purpose-built cars that maximize the rules to their advantage, and the days of the daily driver TT car are numbered (if they want to be truly competitive). Of course, results will vary depending on driver skill and knowledge of track, but a no-compromises track car has a better chance than a car that has to do daily duty. And don't forget the "advantage" that one has when he knows that if the car breaks, it can just go home on the trailer vs. if it breaks I got no way to get to work tomorrow!

 

 

You can't have #1 without #2. We need to know where TT is going first, then we can discuss rules. You can't have it one way this year and another way next. Nothing against you Kyle, but you have a "purpose-built" car, and it showes. Your doing great with it. I think what everybody needs to know is which way is TT going? With a purpose-built or a street type car???? After knowing this, we can discuss which rules to change if any.

 

Ditto, but I think TT is designed to cater to both. Even a purpose built race car of one sort can only run based on whats done to it. And I'm talking about the major "techable without teardown" stuff. Hp/weight ratios and tires make up a bulk of the results, using these things plus base classes is whats neccessary. I think you are going to have to have "considerable" mods to a street car to win any class.

 

The key object is finding the systems that can acurately put cars in groups based on their running ability, but using the mods on the cars to determine this. The point system is the best way to do this. If it means a solstice w/ a 427 swap should be in TTU or TTR then so be it, but you would know the car is not at a very distinct adavantage over the other cars, based on their potential and not just who's showing up and driving them.

[BrandonT]

As to the second, the reality is that TT is a racing/competitive endeavor. Like any racing class, there's always going to be the guy(s) that pulls out all (or more) stops. It is inevitable that if TT continues to grow, more and more guys will be building purpose-built cars that maximize the rules to their advantage, and the days of the daily driver TT car are numbered (if they want to be truly competitive). Of course, results will vary depending on driver skill and knowledge of track, but a no-compromises track car has a better chance than a car that has to do daily duty. And don't forget the "advantage" that one has when he knows that if the car breaks, it can just go home on the trailer vs. if it breaks I got no way to get to work tomorrow!

 

No way to work and no way home either. The more track capable, the less street capable and vice-versa. I saw a guy with an Evo that had racing seats and a bar in it (with front and back braces). I couldn't believe he drove it to work. But he needed the bar for safety. I think most people get tired of the bar / seat / belts / springs / alignment needed for a race car and move on.

 

And Kyle - when you said 'Argumentative layers with BMWs' was redundant did you mean argumentative lawyers or lawyers with BMWs?

[L98Terror]

Great discussion, I don't know the ins and outs of mods but I would agree that the tire makes the biggest difference and I wouldn't be against a Hoosier or 710 being a 20 pt tire. Nothing drops time faster than a good tire.

[kbrew8991]

Great discussion, I don't know the ins and outs of mods but I would agree that the tire makes the biggest difference and I wouldn't be against a Hoosier or 710 being a 20 pt tire. Nothing drops time faster than a good tire.

 

everyone will switch to shaved NT01s then and everyone will whine about those

 

1 whole class for a set of tires is a bit on the steep side

[StealthTT]

Great discussion, I don't know the ins and outs of mods but I would agree that the tire makes the biggest difference and I wouldn't be against a Hoosier or 710 being a 20 pt tire. Nothing drops time faster than a good tire.

 

everyone will switch to shaved NT01s then and everyone will whine about those

 

1 whole class for a set of tires is a bit on the steep side

 

20 points would be 10 more than it currently is. 10 points is the same penalty as 140lbs of weight reduction. On a 3600lb car with 300hp, that drops the weight to power ratio by about 0.47 (12:1 to 11.53:1). That's just slightly more than the perceived disadvantage of using a 4 door sedan or 5 door wagon. Those cars are given a 0.4 correction factor.

 

I'm just looking for parity in the rules. I would keep my mouth shut and take advantage of this disparity too if I was willing to fill Hoosier's coffer every race weekend or two.

 

The testing I've seen puts shaved RA1s within tenths of the shaved NT01s. The RA1s were usually faster on heavier cars. I think grouping them in the same points category is fair.