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'08 TT rules

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Greg G.

The NX and SE-R are definitely up for review in '08.

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Varkwso

It will not take much more tire points to put all C5 and C6 vettes into TTS - where a stock car is not competitive.

 

Since I just spent this season optimizing my 2006 TTB C5 to a 2007 TTA C5 (same basic car) it will be disappointing to have it reclassed to TTS or other in 2008....

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Greg G.

Tire points are unlikely to substantially change in '08, but I appreciate the discussions.

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kbrew8991

the E30 definatley needs review

 

a fully prepared SpecE30 ends up in TTE/PTE for chrissake... and can stay in PTE/TTE without carrying SpecE30 ballast...

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iflyadesk
the E30 definatley needs review

 

a fully prepared SpecE30 ends up in TTE/PTE for chrissake... and can stay in PTE/TTE without carrying SpecE30 ballast...

 

You should drive the Pink Panther at Nationals, then.

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Markus

I thought last year that the base classes were going to be reviewed with at least some attention paid to weight/power ratios. I know the drivetrain layout of the car and some other factors have to be considered as well, but it still seems like there is a big disparity in some groups.

 

For example, last weekend we had my Miata in TTE against a Mazdaspeed Protege turbo and a Lexus IS300. Those are both heavier cars, but the huge differential in power makes up for it (and not just horsepower, maybe torque needs to be added to the equation somehow as well).

 

- Mark

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StealthTT

The fast guys on RA1's shave them to nothing, and throw them away after 2 weekends, just like Hoosiers.

 

They shave them to nothing to remove the tread blocks which increases the longevity.

 

If they're throwing them away after 2 weekends, they're wasting their money or their sponsor's money. RA1s wear like iron with very little to no fall off.

 

Tire points are unlikely to substantially change in '08, but I appreciate the discussions.

 

Well then don't substantially change them. Just slightly modify them.

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kbrew8991
I thought last year that the base classes were going to be reviewed with at least some attention paid to weight/power ratios. I know the drivetrain layout of the car and some other factors have to be considered as well, but it still seems like there is a big disparity in some groups.

 

For example, last weekend we had my Miata in TTE against a Mazdaspeed Protege turbo and a Lexus IS300. Those are both heavier cars, but the huge differential in power makes up for it (and not just horsepower, maybe torque needs to be added to the equation somehow as well).

 

- Mark

 

Miatas are an asterix high, but I've raised that point early this past year and was shot down so... good luck?

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loudes13

If they're throwing them away after 2 weekends, they're wasting their money or their sponsor's money. RA1s wear like iron with very little to no fall off.

 

Well then don't substantially change them. Just slightly modify them.

 

Please try doing some research before posting. Toyo's are great tire, but all products have flaws and no tire is perfect.

 

When you are getting 100% out of your car, Toyo's wear faster than when you're at 90%. They also heatcycle some. Not as bad as some other products, but some.

 

Drivers in very competitive spec tire classes, who have 5-6 drivers that could win every weekend or at a national championship level event shave their tires to 2/32's, and they only last a couple sessions. Come to nationals and watch the front running Honda Challenge, AI, CMC, and specmiata guys bringing wheels over to Phil.

 

Please see:

 

http://forum.specmiata.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/2/3522.html#000006

 

http://forum.specmiata.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=print_topic;f=2;t=002878

 

http://forum.specmiata.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=print_topic;f=39;t=000015

 

http://corner-carvers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30935&highlight=ai+toyo

 

http://corner-carvers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25432&highlight=ai+toyo

 

I have found that tire wear is 50% compound and 50% ultimate lap time. Drive slower, they'll last longer. But if you want to go fast, write the check.

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iflyadesk

The fast guys on RA1's shave them to nothing, and throw them away after 2 weekends, just like Hoosiers.

 

They shave them to nothing to remove the tread blocks which increases the longevity.

 

That's what I thought until a set of Shaved RA-1s only lasted me a single weekend in Spec Miata.

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StealthTT

After doing tons of research, I've come to the same conclusions as many others. After talking with Phil of Phil's tires, it sealed the deal for me. I'm sure he would be happy to sell me more tires, but he echoed what many others have said. Shaved RA1s really come on after a few heat cycles, plateau for as many as 20 heat cycles, and then slowly peter out. Hoosiers provide more grip during their short life, but go down hill very quickly.

 

Testing on friends' cars weighing 3000-3600lbs with driver showed the same results. We also don't pussyfoot around when driving. We drive deep into the corner and set high slip angles on corner entry to fully utilize all wheel drive. We typically run a different more aggessive line. At Reno-Fernly two years ago, we were 4-wheel drifting some of the mountain corners. We were testing the new track for the best line in slow speed combination corners. At Thunderhill it was quite easy to spin all 4 on the off-camber corners. There's certainly no pussy-footing with me or my friend's driving. Rich Merritt in the blue Eclipse....if you've shared the track with him, you know there's no egg between his foot and the gas pedal. He'll tell anyone who'll listen that "there's no coasting in racing".

 

Spec miata and HC could also be a different ballgame since the cars are lighter. Are RA1s mud and curbing rated for all the off-track excursions they do? Many of those replacements could also be due to locked up brakes and other forms of hide removal. Shaving to 2/32nds doesn't sound like a good decision to me, but some will do anything for a perceived advantage. The placebo effect can be very strong. Or they could just be looking for any advantage, even a very small one, since it's such close racing.

 

There are a million factors determining the life of tires. There are also those who intend to spread misinformation or just spread the results of lousy testing practices. But I've seen no one until now protest that RA1s sacrifice some grip in return for more longevity over Hoosiers.

 

p.s. "Please try doing some research before posting." That's quite an argumentative way to phrase it. A better approach would be to use the phrase "In my research I've found.....". This isn't the Racing Smack Talk forum.

 

 

Please try doing some research before posting. Toyo's are great tire, but all products have flaws and no tire is perfect.

 

When you are getting 100% out of your car, Toyo's wear faster than when you're at 90%. They also heatcycle some. Not as bad as some other products, but some.

 

Drivers in very competitive spec tire classes, who have 5-6 drivers that could win every weekend or at a national championship level event shave their tires to 2/32's, and they only last a couple sessions. Come to nationals and watch the front running Honda Challenge, AI, CMC, and specmiata guys bringing wheels over to Phil.

 

Please see:

 

http://forum.specmiata.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/2/3522.html#000006

 

http://forum.specmiata.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=print_topic;f=2;t=002878

 

http://forum.specmiata.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=print_topic;f=39;t=000015

 

http://corner-carvers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30935&highlight=ai+toyo

 

http://corner-carvers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25432&highlight=ai+toyo

 

I have found that tire wear is 50% compound and 50% ultimate lap time. Drive slower, they'll last longer. But if you want to go fast, write the check.

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cliftching

I was reading all the rules suggestions in TT and one thing most of you have not mention is the safety issue. Especially with what have just happened at Mid Ohio.

 

TT cars are lapping times faster or equal the lap times of the race group. These are street cars!! You know in Drag racing how they mandate rollcage or a paracute if a certain car goes a certain speed.

 

TTE was in the low 1:44 in street cars. Those were Honda Challenge H4 times.

 

TTS in the 1:33 times faster than the Koni Challenge times or even some Speed World Challenge cars.

 

We need to look at mandating safety equipment in TT.

 

Clift Ching

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kbrew8991

safety is the driver's choice currently, and you're given MASSIVE amounts of freedom within the rules to make your car safe. Mandating it isn't the way to go... if you think someone is going fast enough to need it, talk to them...

 

If its solely by lap times, then HPDE4 should get mandated safety equip as well, and why stop there since some HPDE3 cars are just as fast, and HPDE2, and....

 

TTers shouldn't be going 10/10ths on an oiled down section of track, you won't set your best lap of the weekend in conditions like that...

 

I'm all for honoring those who pass doing this sport, but knee-jerk reactions aren't what I'd consider honoring them

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fast_frank_d
I was reading all the rules suggestions in TT and one thing most of you have not mention is the safety issue. Especially with what have just happened at Mid Ohio.

 

TT cars are lapping times faster or equal the lap times of the race group. These are street cars!! You know in Drag racing how they mandate rollcage or a paracute if a certain car goes a certain speed.

 

TTE was in the low 1:44 in street cars. Those were Honda Challenge H4 times.

 

TTS in the 1:33 times faster than the Koni Challenge times or even some Speed World Challenge cars.

 

We need to look at mandating safety equipment in TT.

 

Clift Ching

 

In drag racing, the threat of danger most closely correlates with ET (mph) followed by track condition, which rarely changes (in terms of danger). There really aren't many other factors that can make a drag race more or less dangerous. The most dangerous aspect of road racing is wheel-to-wheel contact, followed by the track layout itself (runoff), unexpected surface conditions, and lap times. The order of the last 3 could be argued, but I stand by #1.

 

The Time Trial (and HPDE) format is designed specifically to mitigate wheel-to-wheel contact to allow people with street cars to participate.

 

Frank D.

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StealthTT

Great points. I hadn't looked at it that way. I've held the same belief as kbrew8991 that it should be left up to the individual since the points system currently allows safety items for basically free.

 

 

In drag racing, the threat of danger most closely correlates with ET (mph) followed by track condition, which rarely changes (in terms of danger). There really aren't many other factors that can make a drag race more or less dangerous. The most dangerous aspect of road racing is wheel-to-wheel contact, followed by the track layout itself (runoff), unexpected surface conditions, and lap times. The order of the last 3 could be argued, but I stand by #1.

 

The Time Trial (and HPDE) format is designed specifically to mitigate wheel-to-wheel contact to allow people with street cars to participate.

 

Frank D.

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cliftching

So what you guys are saying is that you would sacrifies speed/lap times for safety.

 

HPDE 1-3 have passing rules which prevent them from getting close to each other.

 

HPDE 4/TT are open passing just like wheel to wheel.

 

I don't know if you know what exactly happened in the incident but you might want to check out the forum under John Ingles.

 

He happened to hit the oil spot behind the Porsche. This could happen in TT.

 

I am looking out for us competitor not add weight to your cars.

 

Clift Ching

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Markus

Personally - I get what Clift is saying about safety and I wouldn't mind seeing the requirements tightened up in TT.

 

That being said though, it's almost a different discussion than the competition rules. I'm sure NASA has reasons for doing what they've done safety-wise, and any changes or implications of changes would have to be reviewed by the lawyers, etc.

 

So if possible - let's maybe keep this discussion focused on the rules in regards to competition, points assessments and how cars are classified?

 

- Mark

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kbrew8991

Do you run in Time Trials Cliff or are you a casual observer?

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Varkwso

Mandating safety equipment will not make it necessarily safer - the Mid Ohio car was caged I believe and had all the other mandated gear too. But it will make it less accessible and more expensive.

 

I currently drive C5s in TTA and they are a middling fast car. If you tell me to cage the car - I am most likely out of the TT game. Luckily C5s crash well so the car gets the deep 6 and the owner gets to explain it to the spouse/significant other.

 

It is dangerous to track a car - in the last 5 years I have seen many, many cars totalled/severely damaged in DE and TT. Only seen one medevac in the last five and it was precautionary.

 

Cages and safety equipment are allowed and not penalized in TT in most cases. It is an advantage in stiffening the car at the cost of weight.

 

What I want is all C5s to be base classed TTC with no points

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RACER-X

How about something like this..... A car which comes from the factory with bigger OEM tires than its base class allows, can run their stock size, providing its a street tire of no less than a 140 rating. That will allow those who choose to run their stock size without accruing points but if they chose to run an R compound tire, the rules as they stand, will apply.

Just a thought.

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Markus
Do you run in Time Trials Cliff or are you a casual observer?

 

Clift has run TT a couple of times this year in everything from a race-prepped TTE H4 CRX to an uptuned Evo in one the TTS-TTU classes.

 

- Mark

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kbrew8991
Do you run in Time Trials Cliff or are you a casual observer?

 

Clift has run TT a couple of times this year in everything from a race-prepped TTE H4 CRX to an uptuned Evo in one the TTS-TTU classes.

 

- Mark

 

ok, then maybe your region is slack about yelling at people for making not-smart passes, otherwise he'd know that the risk of contact in TT should be just as low as that in the regular DE groups, where full safety isn't required

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IS300
Do you run in Time Trials Cliff or are you a casual observer?

 

Clift has run TT a couple of times this year in everything from a race-prepped TTE H4 CRX to an uptuned Evo in one the TTS-TTU classes.

 

- Mark

 

ok, then maybe your region is slack about yelling at people for making not-smart passes, otherwise he'd know that the risk of contact in TT should be just as low as that in the regular DE groups, where full safety isn't required

 

Our region(s) OH/IN & MW are definately not lax about passing or safety.

Clift definately has the experience to talk about safety, and he has a TON of experience in W2W and TT. With that said, I don't know that implementing safety equipment, ie a roll cage, is a nessicity. Then the discussion becomes, a bolt-in with door bars or a weld in. If you don't know, they are completly different when it comes to how safe a driver is, especially if you drive a unibody car.

 

On the topic or R-compound tires, honestly from what I have seen I do not see a problem with the current points set-up. Yes, R-Compounds could be faster, but points can be used a variety of ways.

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RodeoFlyer
Do you run in Time Trials Cliff or are you a casual observer?

 

Clift has run TT a couple of times this year in everything from a race-prepped TTE H4 CRX to an uptuned Evo in one the TTS-TTU classes.

 

- Mark

 

ok, then maybe your region is slack about yelling at people for making not-smart passes, otherwise he'd know that the risk of contact in TT should be just as low as that in the regular DE groups, where full safety isn't required

 

I'm sorry am I in the wrong forum? I'd expect to see someone treated like that in the "other" club *cough SC cough CA* - but not here. I don't see that as a way to make newbies welcome - especially from a director.

 

I personally feel that, as was stated earlier; HPDE and TT are the most dangerous groups on track for lack of safety gear. Wheel to wheel racing is hardly the only situation to cause a wreck. I think people who neglect safety because it isn't required when they could otherwise afford it are fools.

 

GOING BACK TO THE RULES DISCUSSION

 

I plan on running TT-whatever my 06' Mustang ends up in next season. I thouroughly agree on the issue of adjustment with regard to weight. The rulebook weight for my car at 3450 sucks. It's over 3500. By the time you add my 270#, UNREQUIRED bolt-in roll bar, harness, blah blah - we're talking about close to 3900lbs, maybe more. The rules allow me/car to weigh 3300lbs or so before I am penalized. HOW IN THE HELL CAN I REALISTICLY REMOVE 600lbs FROM MY CAR - let alone lose more than that and put ballast where i'd rather have it. My car is classed in TTD - with 2**. I pretty much can't do more than a pair of fuzzy dice before I get bumped up a class.

 

I can't speak from experience obviously about the current mod asessment values because I am not currently a TT driver. Everything i've seen so far doesn't look in my favor, but obviously I haven't earned the right to bitch yet.

 

Another idea to help without changing everything up might be an experience asessment. What about allowing rookie drivers a couple extra points?

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kbrew8991

I think if you met me, you'd figure out I'm not a scary guy.. I'm all about bringing in new people, but only if they play more like DE people instead of race people so that these sessions stay more like DE, and only need DE safety, etc, etc. I'll bend over backwards to help someone with classing, getting their check ride for licensing, getting into the event... even if that means I miss track time, stay up late studying the rule book, etc

 

but when it comes to my series regionally I've got no issue scolding you if you do anything unsafe in one of my sessions.... because of that and the hard work of the other co-director, regional directors, event directors, etc, my region has gotten one of the largest TT programs in the US. afaik Southeast was the first to completely sell out a TT group

 

if that makes me like an "SCCA" guy, well, maybe its one of the few things they get right

 

back to rules talk

 

I'd like to see a level of porting between full race port and nothing, something that will allow guys with current or former Improved Touring cars to not take +6 for what amounts to maybe a few horsepower from gasket matching 1" into the manifold and head mating surfaces.

 

You may say "if thats all thats holding them back, then they just need to get over it", well, its one of the easiest places I see to throw these guys a bone and show that we're listening, we're reasonable, and we're worth running with. They're already dealing with a change from a cut & dried "do these 8 things to your car and thats it, here's your class" to the TT/PT ruleset which I've had people say classing their car was harder than doing their taxes, dealing with some of their competitors in IT_ ending up in different classes, and so on. I'll look for other places to encourage this cross-over, but for now, I think thats one of the big spots where we can help them without upsetting any apple carts over here in NASA where people have established their cars, classes, etc

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