'08 TT rules

[cliftching]

Do you run in Time Trials Cliff or are you a casual observer?

 

I have a couple of days left in my Drivers Ed class. I have my drivers permit right now. Can I have my Mom sit beside me when I do HPDE?

 

I can't believe you are a director of TT. I am sure the National staff would like to see this forum.

 

If you need to find out about me. http://www.mylaps.com under Clifton Ching

Or google my name. Clifton Ching. To see my experiences.

 

And yes, Contact can happen in TT.

[kbrew8991]

over not agreeing that full race safety needs mandated? ok, take my job then because I don't think its necessary.

 

not to poo-poo on anyone's experience, or region, or people in general... but if you don't think your TT sessions are safe, then talk to your directors about it to see what needs to be done to make it safe.

 

it shouldn't have to come to mandating rollcages, firesystems, etc IMO. I know that others may feel differently, and we'll just have amicably agree to disagree I imagine.

 

I think 99.5% of your anger at me is from tone of voice is not coming across in text on a screen, and that goes both ways... at any rate, I don't mean any offense, I respectfully disagree, and regret that the words didn't come across that way. Can I pull your TT license if you continue to post like a jerk since you want my job over basically the same thing? see you at Nationals, hit me up for a beer if you want. No hard feelings...

[Varkwso]

I think if you met me, you'd figure out I'm not a scary guy.. I'm all about bringing in new people, but only if they play more like DE people instead of race people so that these sessions stay more like DE, and only need DE safety, etc, etc. I'll bend over backwards to help someone with classing, getting their check ride for licensing, getting into the event... even if that means I miss track time, stay up late studying the rule book, etc

.......

 

 

I don't know Ken - you can be pretty scary after a pitcher of margarita's - especially with your racing shoes on.

 

Ken does bend over backwards to help people participate and be safe in TT. I have seen it and I have run every NASA-SE TT event this year (well we missed one day at Roebling Road due to a team member graduatiing High School).

 

We have not had car to car contact in TT yet here in the SE - but I have seen it in HPDE.

 

Rodeoflyer

 

It is better to be classed overweight then under - with my bulk I will never get there - but my two flyweight sons are the ones I have to set the cars up to and even then I am over the minimum. The rulebook does not really favor anything other than an Dodge SRT (sorry Greg could not resist) as near as I can tell. Some cars may have an "advantage" and some cars may not. But TT really comes down to level of prep to the rules - all "free mods" better be used! Most really competitive cars are "upclassed" and prepped to near max points for the class.

 

I would run TTD with fuzzy dice as a rookie - rather than modding the car and trying to run TTA/TTB for example.

 

I hope to see the free mods stay the same in 2008 and maybe even add a few more (e.g., springs ). Some of the free mods would make classing/policing easier for the directors/scrutineers.

 

Based on hours of study of the mods and intimate knowledge of the cars I can tell you if a C5 is TTB, TTA or TTS (or higher) in a few moments. I ran against a very well prepped and driven STi this month in TTA. We were competitive so I think his car is classed right and the driver was a great guy but how would he know I was legal in "self policing TT"?

[BrandonT]

I'd like to see a level of porting between full race port and nothing, something that will allow guys with current or former Improved Touring cars to not take +6 for what amounts to maybe a few horsepower from gasket matching 1" into the manifold and head mating surfaces.

 

Hey, that's my proposal from last year! I brought the old thread up again separately but haven't heard comment on it for '08. The issue in short is that there is a world of difference between gasket matching and a fully built head. Different valves, a full port, benchflowing make more power than an IT-spec gasket match. There are a TON of IT cars out there that get the shaft from these 6 points. Thanks for the notice again, Ken. You ain't such a bad guy!

[IS300]

I'd like to see a level of porting between full race port and nothing, something that will allow guys with current or former Improved Touring cars to not take +6 for what amounts to maybe a few horsepower from gasket matching 1" into the manifold and head mating surfaces.

 

Hey, that's my proposal from last year! I brought the old thread up again separately but haven't heard comment on it for '08. The issue in short is that there is a world of difference between gasket matching and a fully built head. Different valves, a full port, benchflowing make more power than an IT-spec gasket match. There are a TON of IT cars out there that get the shaft from these 6 points. Thanks for the notice again, Ken. You ain't such a bad guy!

 

Just to play devil's advocate, how do you enforce which porting you have done to your head. I think Greg G. is correct with the points on this mod, because it is so hard to monitor. If we want TT to grow we have to have:

1) rules stability

2) enforceable rules

3) more participants

 

Brandon I think you are right that there are a lot of IT cars that want to come play, but get hit on points, but if you prep the car for grip, meaning using a true R-compound tire I think your lap times would be right with everyone.

[Greg G.]

The TT and HPDE safety rules will be reviewed by NASA National for '08. This is a very complicated subject (in regards to "mandates"). As always, I encourage every participant in HDPE or TT to get as much safety equipment (above and beyond the requirements) as they feel is necessary to have a safe, fun experience. And, as always, NASA will do what is necessary to help ensure that the drivers that you are on track with are behaving appropriately, and not putting you at excess risk.

[Slowwrx]

I think I should be able to run the STI in TTA even with an upgraded turbo....those vettes are really fast

 

I thought you were making the move to TTU with even more HP?

 

We missed you at Rd Atl last weekend. It was just me and a fast Z06 fighting for weekend honors. I took Saturday and he took Sunday, while breaking your class record.

 

Yeah I still don't have a motor back in the car. I'm sure I can run a high 1:36 at Road Atlanta in TTS Trim. I think I'm going to move to TTU, right now I'm getting the car ready for One Lap Next year. I'm going to try and put two cars together so that I will always have something to play with.

 

Matt

[Varkwso]

.....

Yeah I still don't have a motor back in the car. I'm sure I can run a high 1:36 at Road Atlanta in TTS Trim. I think I'm going to move to TTU, right now I'm getting the car ready for One Lap Next year. I'm going to try and put two cars together so that I will always have something to play with.

 

Matt

 

Two cars are a better option - but I still have to struggle sometimes to get even one trackready...

[BrandonT]

Just to play devil's advocate, how do you enforce which porting you have done to your head. I think Greg G. is correct with the points on this mod, because it is so hard to monitor. If we want TT to grow we have to have:

1) rules stability

2) enforceable rules

3) more participants

 

Brandon I think you are right that there are a lot of IT cars that want to come play, but get hit on points, but if you prep the car for grip, meaning using a true R-compound tire I think your lap times would be right with everyone.

 

Well, the SCCA does it so it can't be that hard. Actually the same enforcement issues are present in the current rules. How do you know if someone has worked their heads for the 6pts? You have to pull the manifolds /headers at a minimum. If we added the valve clause as I suggested, then proving THAT would require pulling the head - obviously a big deal. But the inspection for the 1" vs full port is no more difficult that it already is - you still have to pull the manifolds and run your finger inside to feel for smoothing.

 

I agree about my car. The 3hp that port matching represents doesn't begin to account for the loss in not being able to run a 10pt tire. The problem is, my car is built to ITA rules and there is very little I can 'undo' to get some points back. The only way I can come up with enough points is to replace the head with a stock one. I could do this of course but the rule really could be more fair. I suffered with it this year because I discovered it too late to do anything, but for '08 I'd like to see it become more IT friendly.

[Markus]

but for '08 I'd like to see it become more IT friendly.

 

I think the main underlying issue is that with PT/TT NASA decided to create a better race series with a different set of rules. What that means - there is no easy overlap with SCCA roadracing IT rules or autocross rules.

 

This can be bad in a way because it means people can't just "cross over" and be instantly competitive.

 

But it can be good because it results in a new, hopefully more fair classing structure.

 

In the first iteration of TT rules we used to have some "crossover" built in - IE, I think H4 cars went to TTD and Spec Miatas went to TTE or something like that. But what ended up happening was that by nature the cars would end up overclassed or underclassed.

 

Since there is no direct matchup, and there can't be direct matchup unless NASA just wants to recreate SCCA IT classes, people that bring over ex-SCCA cars are going to have to make some decisions if they intend to stay with PT/TT and be successful.

 

With my Miata, I've had to readjust over the last couple of years and realize - building a successful TTE Miata could be totally different than building a CSP autocross Miata or even a Spec Miata. That's the interesting thing about TT, the points are wide open and it's up to each driver to determine how to apply them.

 

- Mark

[loudes13]

hmmm, when I added up the pts on my specmiata, it was a low pts TTD. I think I had enough pts to run hoosiers left over though. Two probs, 1 at SM weight I was way over weight (not much else I could take out AND stay SM legal), and 2 a 112 hp miata is pretty slow compared to real TTD cars. SM get decent times while drafting and with help bump drafting, but those aren't part of TT.

 

So I decided it wasn't a good car for TT. I still think the rules are pretty fair, just don't crossover all that well.

[kbrew8991]

but for '08 I'd like to see it become more IT friendly.

 

I think the main underlying issue is that with PT/TT NASA decided to create a better race series with a different set of rules. What that means - there is no easy overlap with SCCA roadracing IT rules or autocross rules.

 

This can be bad in a way because it means people can't just "cross over" and be instantly competitive.

 

But it can be good because it results in a new, hopefully more fair classing structure.

 

In the first iteration of TT rules we used to have some "crossover" built in - IE, I think H4 cars went to TTD and Spec Miatas went to TTE or something like that. But what ended up happening was that by nature the cars would end up overclassed or underclassed.

 

Since there is no direct matchup, and there can't be direct matchup unless NASA just wants to recreate SCCA IT classes, people that bring over ex-SCCA cars are going to have to make some decisions if they intend to stay with PT/TT and be successful.

 

With my Miata, I've had to readjust over the last couple of years and realize - building a successful TTE Miata could be totally different than building a CSP autocross Miata or even a Spec Miata. That's the interesting thing about TT, the points are wide open and it's up to each driver to determine how to apply them.

 

- Mark

 

I agree with you Markus, and I want these to stay NASA rules. I'm just trying to get some more "resolution" (to use a computer term here) in a few things to open up not only some options for current people, but to also make that crossover from SCCA IT to NASA a little more friendlier for at least one or two modifications

 

You gotta admit, its got to be a shock for those guys to go from "do these 8 mods & here's your class" to the "tax form & math to get your class" method, and then they get creamed by a few things that we could add in to lessen the pain

 

thats my view anyway, you guys are welcome to your own

[hagakure]

When calculating power to wt ratio use HP + Torque divided by 2. You can tune turbo cars to make way more torque than hp.

 

 

I agree. Thi si what is killing guys with honda engine swaps. You may have a B18c in a CRX making 214 WHP, but you make 143 torque...it's still a momentum car. By the way, a CRX so outfitted with decent coilovers, weighing 2240 ends up in TTA vs. modded evos, vettes, mustangs and Porsches....

[bbyevo]

Spoken like a guy that just bought a Honda. Hang in there Percy!

[hagakure]

Gotta Try!

[kgobey]

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Edited February 23, 2010 by Guest

[kbrew8991]

from a topic over in the Championships forum I was trying to not derail...

 

I thought TT numbers had to be 3 digits? CCR rule # 9.1. Although it looks like a 1-2 digit number can be permanently assigned also.

 

http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/Time-Trial-Rules.pdf

 

being a former T&S guy who loathes 3 digit numbers that doesn't make sense. When you're doing the manual backup for the system you write down every car # as it crosses the line, and with 3 digit numbers its all but impossible to keep up

 

I'd prefer to see 1 or 2 digit mandated, 3 only with approval

 

why was it set to 3 digit #s as the norm, with 1 or 2 only with approval?

[bbyevo]

To keep them separate from the racers? Besides, no one should be taping TT groups should they?

[kbrew8991]

To keep them separate from the racers? Besides, no one should be taping TT groups should they?

 

depends on what your event directors want, but you're right.. you can't really reconstruct a session from it...

[kbrew8991]

here's some more discussion here, more towards PT but the car classification is the same:

http://www.roadrace-autox.com/bbs/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=4954&posts=12#M109608

[bbyevo]

I know we don't tape TT sessions in OH/IN. I thought Nationals might be different..

[kbrew8991]

if you've ever taped a 60 car race group on a 2.5 mile track, you'd really understand my loathing for 3 digit car numbers

 

I'm just trying to see what the thought process was when more or less mandating 3 digit car numbers for TT...?

[bbyevo]

I tried taping once. That was enough for me!

[kbrew8991]

I tried taping once. That was enough for me!

 

whats really fun is trying to reconstruct a race from tapes when the laptop you're using to time the race fails

 

25 min sprint race took 3 of us 4 hours to do

[Greg G.]

from a topic over in the Championships forum I was trying to not derail...

 

I thought TT numbers had to be 3 digits? CCR rule # 9.1. Although it looks like a 1-2 digit number can be permanently assigned also.

 

http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/Time-Trial-Rules.pdf

 

being a former T&S guy who loathes 3 digit numbers that doesn't make sense. When you're doing the manual backup for the system you write down every car # as it crosses the line, and with 3 digit numbers its all but impossible to keep up

 

I'd prefer to see 1 or 2 digit mandated, 3 only with approval

 

why was it set to 3 digit #s as the norm, with 1 or 2 only with approval?

 

I think we have close to 200 assigned car numbers in SoCal now. Racers are generally required to have one or two digit numbers. Many of our TT drivers are racers. We need to save as many of the two digit numbers for racers as possible (most have numbers painted or permanent vinyl/decals on their cars).