is ceramic coating legal ?>

[cullen winter]

I'm pretty sure the answer to this is no, but....

 

I have a sponsor that does coatings( http://www.grimmspeed.com) , and I'm a bit of an underhood temp nut.

Is ceramic coating the manifolds legal ? How about header tape or other forms of heat shielding ?

[Sterling Doc]

I'm pretty sure the answer to this is no, but....

 

I have a sponsor that does coatings( http://www.grimmspeed.com) , and I'm a bit of an underhood temp nut.

Is ceramic coating the manifolds legal ? How about header tape or other forms of heat shielding ?

 

If you put it on the OUTSIDE of the headers, I think that OK, though I haven't researched the rules on this.

[cullen winter]

Thanks, I think it will really depend on the interpretation of the word "modify". I know that PnP is illegal.

[944-Spec#94]

Headers must remain stock. Once you coat them they are no longer stock.

 

Header wrap is a little less defined. Reason is that you are not modifying the header with a non-removable coating. However it is a bit on the line. If pressed I would put it under section 3 that does not allow mods not listed.

 

The bigger issue with header wrap is oil that leaks on it can get trapped and then cause a fire.

[chris_venturini]

since you have a 924s like me we have an advantage in cooling that the 944s dont have. the radiator is flush with the bumper opening and is larger. also with the undertray installed (you do still have yours right?) my temps are super cool on the track(at pueblo, ~100 degrees, my temps never even got to half). if you still have problems there's always water wetter and if you still want cooler temps theres an old racer (ricer) secret that ill be doing to my car that i learned from turboing cars. let me test it out to see if i can do it then ill post it up on the forums for everyone to know.

[cullen winter]

It's more about controlling the underhood temps than internal engine cooling. By isolating heat from the exhaust and shielding the intake to remain cooler, good things happen. Cooler intake = a little more power, and a more efficient burn. Keeping the heat in the exhaust increases the flow. That said, if either of those constitute modifications, I'll make the best of what I've got ! Thanks

[John3]

Headers must remain stock. Once you coat them they are no longer stock.

 

Header wrap is a little less defined. Reason is that you are not modifying the header with a non-removable coating. However it is a bit on the line. If pressed I would put it under section 3 that does not allow mods not listed.

 

The bigger issue with header wrap is oil that leaks on it can get trapped and then cause a fire.

 

Racer rationalization is always excellent entertainment.

 

Two reasons only for either wrap or coating. Both valid. If you're going to a single rule for application to both they should be treated alike. Yes or No?

[Tim Comeau]

Guys,

Whenever you have a mod question, just stop and ask yourself why you're doing it. If there's a performance gain, you're doing it for the wrong reason IN THIS CLASS. Right? It's a good idea to put all your speed secrets to work for you in OTHER classes, but not this one.

Ceramic coating of the headers is way illegal. Using a 944 turbo head with ceramic exhaust ports is way illegal.

There's no doubt that keeping the right side of the engine bay a little cooler will help reliability with respect to the engine mounts, the oil pan gasket, etc. It will help keep the driver in the cockpit cooler as well. Those are good reasons for lowering the temps on the right side.

Is there a performance gain in wrapping the headers with tape, or is it just to contain the radiant heat?

[cullen winter]

Thanks Tim. Since I'm not very familiar with the 944/924 engine yet, I don't know if there is a performance gain by controlling underhood temps. In a turbo car there certainly are. I'm guessing that there are at least some benefits in terms of longevity and efficiency in an older (196K) motor.

 

I was almost certain that coating was illegal, hence the first sentence of thread. I understand and appreciate the concept of this spec series being about car equality, and I kind of doubt that a few HP would be worth the trouble since these cars are all about momentum and handling. Getting more life out of the car would be, though IMO.

[chris_venturini]

what im working on is within the rules and involves ducting, "modification of the front air dam to improve cooling is allowed" i just want to make sure it works first , perhaps i should have been more specific as its not as glamorous as i made it out to be.

[Weston]

Our intakes suck cold air from the fender, so engine bay temps wont affect our engine power like it would on other cars. The only reason I see to keep temps down is for reliability and making the radiator's job a little easier. I suppose the '88 cars would benefit from temps low enough that they don't pull timing, but there are already legal ways around that problem.

[Tom #16]

I'd like to simply paint my headers just to make them look better. Would this be construed as a coating meant to increase performance?

[John3]

Guys,

Whenever you have a mod question, just stop and ask yourself why you're doing it. If there's a performance gain, you're doing it for the wrong reason IN THIS CLASS. Right? It's a good idea to put all your speed secrets to work for you in OTHER classes, but not this one.

Ceramic coating of the headers is way illegal. Using a 944 turbo head with ceramic exhaust ports is way illegal.

There's no doubt that keeping the right side of the engine bay a little cooler will help reliability with respect to the engine mounts, the oil pan gasket, etc. It will help keep the driver in the cockpit cooler as well. Those are good reasons for lowering the temps on the right side.

Is there a performance gain in wrapping the headers with tape, or is it just to contain the radiant heat?

 

There are several series cars now in this area and more on the way. There is no clear answer in the above. Also, the individual racer 'ask(ing) (himself) why ...' is not a solution. While a given individual may be motivated by the desire to keep underhood temps down the use of either coatings or wrap also pushes more heat out the exhaust. If one is illegal then the other should be. It would seem. What to tell those folks who want to wrap the exhaust? Their personal rational is irrelevant.

[Tim Comeau]

Chris,

The intent was too allow mods to the front spoiler to improve cooling of the radiator.

[John3]

I'm finishing up a motor that will be running in 2 weeks at the next Mid Atlantic at Summit Point. From the above discussion I take it the header wrap is legal and will be using it on this motor.

[944 cup]

I'm finishing up a motor that will be running in 2 weeks at the next Mid Atlantic at Summit Point. From the above discussion I take it the header wrap is legal and will be using it on this motor.

 

If u are planning to run in the Cup class at Summit, the wrap is not an issue.

[Tim Comeau]

I, too, at this point, have no heartache with wrapping the outside of the headers.

 

Tom,

some guys have painted the outside of their intake manifold for looks. That's ok. You can paint your headers, but no one sees them!

[Tim Comeau]

John3,

What we mean by "asking yourself" is that many guys are self- policing because they value the concept of equal cars. This simple question, when answered honestly, goes a long way towards preventing even questionable mods.

[944-Spec#94]

what im working on is within the rules and involves ducting, "modification of the front air dam to improve cooling is allowed" i just want to make sure it works first , perhaps i should have been more specific as its not as glamorous as i made it out to be.

 

Chris,

This mod is designed for the 944's spoiler and dates back to the May of 2002. On track evidence supported the effect that removing the bar between the fog lights in 944 would improve cooling and allow an overheating car to compete with temps in the upper 90's and lower 100's.

 

Here is what I mean.

Before

After

 

This is the only area that may be cut out. The 924S already has a large unimpeded opening.

[944-Spec#94]

John.

I with respect to the header wrap vs coatings. They are not the same and rules don't treat them as such here is why.

 

Ceramic coats MODIFY the header. Up until now this was never a issue since headers were free. By default you could coat them since you were allowed any header. However since we now require "stock" headers they must remain stock. Putting coating on the header means it is no longer stock as it has been changed from the original design.

 

Header wrap is different. The reason it is different is that it is a removable covering on the headers. You are not changing the headers, but simply covering them. The headers are the the same, but the system is different. Therefore it falls in a gray area. There have been many "gray" areas that have come up in the rules over the years and these have been address as they have come up. This one has just now come up.

 

Now the reason Tim ask's about what why you are wanting to that is because there is the letter of the rules and the intent. The letter of rules is supposed to capture everything, but simply can't ever do a 100% job. So if you find your self in spot where you can't figure it out use the same test we will do. Does it improve performance? If it improves performance then it really does not fit the intent of the rules. All the engine rules are there to create and level playing field. Ideally everyone would have EXACTLY the same hp as everyone else. We all know that is impossible with 20+ year old cars. However if you are trying to gain hp in a gray area then this must be taken in to consideration. While we want to keep the rules stable as much as possible if something comes up that will tip the balance of power too much then we as series directors must respond.

 

In any series like this there is a fine line between building the best and trying bend the rules for an unfair advantage. Remember also this series is based on low cost and equal racing. If some how you car has 10 more hp than everyone else can you really feel good about winning or beating the other guy? There were a few races last year where I beat a competitor 2-3 times. I did well vs him, but part of it was that he had and old tired motor that was down on power. He did very well to keep up and make me fight for all I could. In end however I never really felt great about it since I knew I was "helped" by him being down on power and as soon as he got his car back up to the power of the rest of us he would be a force. Of course it was not fault his car was down on power, but I personally could never race with any of you guys if I felt I had a power edge. What is fun beating every one out there because I have 10-15 more hp from some "secret" power gain even if it just barely legal?

[cullen winter]

I, too, at this point, have no heartache with wrapping the outside of the headers.

 

Tom,

some guys have painted the outside of their intake manifold for looks. That's ok. You can paint your headers, but no one sees them!

 

I am really glad I asked this, since the thread has proven to be very interesting. I quoted the above post because it raises the question, how do you know the intake or exhaust manifold is painted or coated ? Do it yourself ceramic coating looks pretty much just like like paint.

 

As I said earlier, I don't know enough about these cars yet to know if isolating heat from the exhaust provides any power gain or not. My experience with a turbo car tells me that every little bit helps, with regards to controlling EGTs and keeping the intake cool. That said, I don't think you can gain power, you merely preserve it by wrapping the header, much like wrapping prevents heat soak in my WRX's TMIC. The car loses power as the temps rise.

 

Since my 924s has presumably 196k on the clock, I don't expect it to be a fire breathing monster when I get it back from the Hank's (cage builder, sponsor) I would like to be able to coax everything I can out of the car, and know that any real gains in lap times are going to be found by tuning the chassis, not the motor.

 

I will still likely spring for a new set of plug wires and a good air filter to get the old motor turning as well as possible. The reason I asked about coating in the first place is that I have a sponsor who has offered to do it for free, but I was pretty certain that qualified as a mod, confirmed right here.

 

Wrapping the header is something I would do if, or when I will have the car apart enough to get to it, and I wouldn't feel like a cheater, thinking that my straight-away speeds are going to bury the other cars. I certainly would feel like a cheater if I "painted" the parts with something that just happened to contain ceramic ! Thanks for all the input.

[Chuck T.]

all good stuff Cullen, also remember I'm here for ya !

 

equal low cost racing

[Tim Comeau]

Agreed. It's interesting on a technical level, but it also helps guys sort out whether they belong in this class or not......

[John3]

Anything that keeps heat inside the exhaust system contributes in 2 ways to operation. Theoretical performance improvement directly in the exhaust flow and indirectly via reduction of under-hood temps (and thereby perhaps intake temps) and durability improvement via reduction of under-hood temps.

 

While the direct performance enhancement is measurably real for turbo motors it shrinks to the unmeasurable for normal motors because there is no actual direct recovery of wasted energy such as the turbo provides.

 

The indirect enhancement is not a factor in a 944 due to the separation of the intake and exhaust sides of the motor and the oem cold air supply far removed from the heat of operations.

 

Which leaves durability. Two durabilities are at work. The exhaust proper and the other components. There aren't really any wires or such that get heat soaked on the exhaust side of a 44. Still, it's always nice to reduce the temps. Coatings or wrap both do the job to various degrees.

 

Wrap save the 'other' components; but is death the the exhaust parts. It exacerbates corrosion of the manifold. On the other hand, it's a more effective insulator than coatings. Coatings will protect the manifold itself and greatly prolong the life of manifolds - especially tubular manifolds.

 

The best solution comes at the problem from both directions. Apply a coating to protect the manifold and then wrap the manifold to maximize the reduction of under-hood temps.

[Tim Comeau]

Well, ....all that , ....or just leave it stock and unmolested like most of us have done for the past several years. It works fine. No science needed.

STOCK is GOOD.

Say it with me, bretheren!

"STOCK is GOOOOOOOD!"

 

That's what I'm talkin' about!