ghettoracer Posted August 23, 2007 Share Posted August 23, 2007 would be allowed in H1 class. any TB. this goes for B, K, H, D series engines. this could potentially free up a lot of power... and it is great for aftermarkets and marketing IMO. since good headers cost $1200-1500... why not let people have the choice to run $1500 IM if they wanted to?! materials is unrestricted. so AIR CF mani's are allowed. no ITB... even if home made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berny2435 Posted August 23, 2007 Share Posted August 23, 2007 would be allowed in H1 class. any TB. this goes for B, K, H, D series engines. this could potentially free up a lot of power... and it is great for aftermarkets and marketing IMO. since good headers cost $1200-1500... why not let people have the choice to run $1500 IM if they wanted to?! materials is unrestricted. so AIR CF mani's are allowed. no ITB... even if home made. H1 is expensive enough to roll with a car maxed to the rules, why on earth do you think it is a good thing to allow such an amendment? Nasa wants an affordable series so it can host good races. Honda Challenge is not meant to be Speed World Challenge TC bud.. . If anything, porting (instead of port matching) should be open instead of ANY Mani.. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghettoracer Posted August 23, 2007 Author Share Posted August 23, 2007 H1 is NOT CHEAP. Period. if you want cheap you it should be H2 or H4. H1 should reflect the aftermarket. do you know how much it cost to ExtrudeHone ITR mani? IT is not cheap. ppl charge $500 (ENDYN) to hand port the ITR mani when they first started doing it. now you can get CNC ported IM for sub $300. why not allow any single TB mani? edlebrock IM are like $250. AEBS/Professional Products's "typhoon" is sub $200. ppl can get creattive. modify ITR mani with bigger plenum. that's not going to cost a lot more. same thing with TB's. it used be $300 for big bore TB. but you can get Professional Products 68 mm TB for sub $200 on the market. the ITR mani w 62 mm TB is choking down some 5-10 whp easily. if you simply just allowed ANY TB we can free up lot of hp... mani will have zero negative impact on reliability... i see that as a plus. and i gives every one more level playing field in some sense. it will encourage creativity too. D series is the only one that got "open" IM in 2007. it is still limited to 62 mm TB... H series for example, can benefit a lot from a good IM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghettoracer Posted August 23, 2007 Author Share Posted August 23, 2007 i'll try to have some dyno evidence... here's one for when we tested AKMEE prototype intake manifold w/64 mm GSR TB against stock D16Z6 IM/TB. top end gain is HUGE. no loss anywhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSUCRX Posted August 23, 2007 Share Posted August 23, 2007 I see Frank's point, however I also see how this wouldn't be good in the long run for HC. Aftermarket headers are one thing, but the more aftermarket parts you allow, the more it becomes less about the 'Honda' Challenge and more about the 'Parts' Challenge. The series was designed to explore the limits of what different Honda parts and products can do when put together in the right configuration. So basically if IM are allowed to be 'open' in H1, what's next? Pistons? Rods? Crank? Sleeves? Maybe in the future this option can be explored but with the massive change that just took place in H2, it may be too much too soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrie Posted August 23, 2007 Share Posted August 23, 2007 To tell you the truth, I don't see the point. We need to keep the cost down, not up. In fact, I'm more into limiting mods. Maybe K series, need to be even choked down more. There should be no hybrid bottom end, for instance. With the development on K-series, soon enough they will have to carry more weight. And the K-series is already a heavy car as it is. Dave Brown proved the B series is still a front runner last race. With about 300 lbs lighter than my car, it was slightly faster in the straight, and with even more time, it will outbrake and outhandle the K-series car in no time. Also, I kind of enjoy the limitation that we have. Road racing, to certain extent is meant to be a combination of driving skill and the car. To allow more and more mods in quest of HP, it will be like drag racing. Free for all mods, basically. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
71dsp Posted August 23, 2007 Share Posted August 23, 2007 I'd rather see an open tire rule than an open intake manifold rule for H1, but that's me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrie Posted August 23, 2007 Share Posted August 23, 2007 Frank, why would you want to open this rule is beyond me. Others have proven this is not needed to be competitive. And everyone is bounded by the same rule. To compete in a class mean we have to build the car according to the class rule. One of the challenge being getting all you can within the boundary of the rule. If your quest is truly just getting as much power as you can out of the motor using whatever available parts, why not race in Super Unlimited? as far as spec tire, it has been beaten to death. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berny2435 Posted August 23, 2007 Share Posted August 23, 2007 H1 is NOT CHEAP. Period. if you want cheap you it should be H2 or H4. H1 should reflect the aftermarket. How much publicitiy and air time on TV does Honda challenge get? For that matter, how much does Speed World Challenge get? Point being, who sees the benefit unless we racers are gloating about our products on public forums or at car shows??? Allowing H1 to be an all out money war will not get the aftermarket department anywhere with sales without more publication. I will agree that it will get the aftermarket parts makers more and better testing/R&D though.. . I only mentioned porting on the IM b/c some people have means of doing it themselves and it can basically be a free mod if you want to go for it. If you hurt your power by doing it yourself it's your own fault.. . Tires, I don't see a problem with spec tires unless they limit tire sizes unfairly and also in the event of a race weekend or endouro, only allow you to run a set number of tires.. . H1 doesn't fall into that arena.. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghettoracer Posted August 23, 2007 Author Share Posted August 23, 2007 I guess you can say that I have future biz interest. We are coming out with intake manifold for Mitsu Evo 8/9. I <3 HOnda's and we might come back and do another B intake manifold but... our priorities is to make $$ first, passion second. At least in this early stages of AKMEE. but that's going off the tangent. I've tried to made my point. Intake manifold + TB = less than $600 and will gain anywhere from 5-15 whp. That's fantastic bang for the buck. But as some of you know that cornering and braking is more important that straightline power. Marketing on H1 or even HC in general is poor IMO. It's easier to get sponsored for rice boy car shows or even drag racing than RR. Sad, but true. ps, this rule proposal is suggested with the idea to give everyone cheap whp upgrades. you always act like i have a personal angle. hinting about me and my competitiveness... well, keep on talking dude. we'll see about 2008. i've finally got all of my ducks in a row. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrie Posted August 23, 2007 Share Posted August 23, 2007 Frank, I'm stating fact about competitiveness. No need to be defensive. I know you were hoping to hit the ground running. However, it is very rare to have success immediately. We've all been there. I didn't join the series and start winning right away. Takes time and lots of hardwork. Like Graham said on another thread, the people that run upfront have been racing for a while. I think this is a case of you been setting your sight high and not achieving it. Nothing to be embarrased about. Just work harder and identify the area that need improvements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghettoracer Posted August 23, 2007 Author Share Posted August 23, 2007 lol. i got 6th place on shake down weekend. the car is pretty out of wacked; ateast for my driving style. i ran 2002 tires. didn't like the brakes... etc. and yesterday it shows 56.5% cross weight and alignment isn't straight... these might be excuses but they are also facts. FM is not in tip top shape. i've already done quite a bit of work to it... i'm not expecting to come out and win on my first year but with a good car i will give you guys a good work out. i blame the car 100%. well i think i'm gonna take FM to Infineon next next weekend. since my EK Honda Cup car isn't coming up any more... we'll see if my tuning does anything. OBX LSD FTW! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bernardo Posted August 24, 2007 Share Posted August 24, 2007 HU existed for one year and no one came out to race. IMO the only reason H1 is poorly subscribed is because the cars are already very expensive to run, just from a consumables point of veiw. Frank the more power you make the quicker your motor expires. Building the car is the cheap part, keeping it running and racing is the expensive part, unfortunately to many people try to start in the fast class and then get discouraged at their lack of competitiveness and the consumable cost. b. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghettoracer Posted August 24, 2007 Author Share Posted August 24, 2007 HU existed for one year and no one came out to race. IMO the only reason H1 is poorly subscribed is because the cars are already very expensive to run, just from a consumables point of veiw. my proposal shouldn't increase the consumables too much... Frank the more power you make the quicker your motor expires. i don't agree with this; not at the H1 power level and being all motoring. we're simply making the intake much more efficent. the intake manifold and TB is a bottleneck... Building the car is the cheap part, keeping it running and racing is the expensive part, unfortunately to many people try to start in the fast class and then get discouraged at their lack of competitiveness and the consumable cost. b. i think most ppl just don't have their finances together before they go w2w and they lack long term planning. they should learn their skills in slower cars first as most of the skills xfer up. that's my experience at least. i wasn't ready to w2w (financially) until this year. i think i have my ducks in the row for 2008 though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honda-Junky Posted August 24, 2007 Share Posted August 24, 2007 lol. i got 6th place on shake down weekend. the car is pretty out of wacked; ateast for my driving style. i ran 2002 tires. didn't like the brakes... etc. and yesterday it shows 56.5% cross weight and alignment isn't straight... these might be excuses but they are also facts. FM is not in tip top shape. i've already done quite a bit of work to it... i'm not expecting to come out and win on my first year but with a good car i will give you guys a good work out. i blame the car 100%. I dont know your driving ability or your car, but the car probably isn't the only reason your not out front, especially if this has only been your first year racing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Jeremy C. Posted August 24, 2007 National Staff Share Posted August 24, 2007 HU existed for one year and no one came out to race. IMO the only reason H1 is poorly subscribed is because the cars are already very expensive to run, just from a consumables point of veiw. my proposal shouldn't increase the consumables too much... Frank the more power you make the quicker your motor expires. i don't agree with this; not at the H1 power level and being all motoring. we're simply making the intake much more efficent. the intake manifold and TB is a bottleneck... Building the car is the cheap part, keeping it running and racing is the expensive part, unfortunately to many people try to start in the fast class and then get discouraged at their lack of competitiveness and the consumable cost. b. i think most ppl just don't have their finances together before they go w2w and they lack long term planning. they should learn their skills in slower cars first as most of the skills xfer up. that's my experience at least. i wasn't ready to w2w (financially) until this year. i think i have my ducks in the row for 2008 though. HAHA! I'm not even going to bother with this topic because others have pointed out the obvious problems with it! I will say this though Frank, you disagreeing with Bernardo is like you trying to give Bill Gates financial advice. It's just not worth it as in both cases, both of these guys probably know quite a bit more about the subject than you do! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wm577 Posted August 24, 2007 Share Posted August 24, 2007 We really don't need to make H1 cars any faster. It's getting to the point of unsafe when they run in the same group with the H4/H5 and spec miata cars as is. They come up on the slower cars so fast it's scary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghettoracer Posted August 25, 2007 Author Share Posted August 25, 2007 I will say this though Frank, you disagreeing with Bernardo is like you trying to give Bill Gates financial advice. It's just not worth it as in both cases, both of these guys probably know quite a bit more about the subject than you do! say what? it's a matter of opinion. what credentials does Bernardo have about engine building? does he tune his own motors? i know a lot more about engines than you think i know... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghettoracer Posted August 25, 2007 Author Share Posted August 25, 2007 We really don't need to make H1 cars any faster. It's getting to the point of unsafe when they run in the same group with the H4/H5 and spec miata cars as is. They come up on the slower cars so fast it's scary. lap records of SM and H4 are only 2-4 sec. (track dependent) than H1. i don't think that's huge. that's not much in multi-class racing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeski38 Posted August 25, 2007 Share Posted August 25, 2007 SM are 2-4 seconds slower then H4, and H4 is 3-5 seconds slower then H1 you mean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hagakure Posted August 25, 2007 Share Posted August 25, 2007 Frank, Sometimes it's just better to observe, learn, make changes as necessary, quietly, and let your results speak for themselves. In every form of racing I have ever done, including 10 years of USCF cycling, you start at the back unless you are a phenom. I've done well in NASA TT in the past few years, but do not expect that to translate well to racing, and expect to spend some time at the back learning. It's always easy to blame the car, but in the end, every good driver needs to learn to drive around some issues. Learning when to say nothing is a skill that can serve us all well....my 2 cents man. Hope you get what you want out of this sport. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghettoracer Posted August 25, 2007 Author Share Posted August 25, 2007 umm i'm suggested this rule to give everyone more power/efficiency. it doesn't only benefit myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6ghatch Posted August 26, 2007 Share Posted August 26, 2007 We really don't need to make H1 cars any faster. It's getting to the point of unsafe when they run in the same group with the H4/H5 and spec miata cars as is. They come up on the slower cars so fast it's scary. I agree, if anything I would be looking at the rule book and trying to close up some loop holes. IMO, the "open" head rule in H1 is too much. I would also like to see a max compession ratio for each motor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ekim952522000 Posted August 26, 2007 Share Posted August 26, 2007 I also agree it was the "open" rules that stopped me from building a H1 car I would love to see a maximum compression for each motor in H1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaceTiva Posted August 26, 2007 Share Posted August 26, 2007 The rules are working pretty well right now. H1 is just now getting competitive. If we were to do anything I suggest "pumping" motors to see what size they actually are. It is a very easy test to do. Takes 15 minutes tops for each car. Would have solved the B16 conspiracy at the last 2 events. Devin Raynal Redstone Motors #6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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