ekim952522000 Posted September 16, 2007 Share Posted September 16, 2007 HC1 1-Bernardo Martinez 2-Kevin Helms 3-Christopher Drabouski HC2 1-Brian Shanfield 2-Wai-Ho Chiang 3-John Reamer HC4 1-Joseph Moser 2-Robert Moser 3-Benoit Pecqueur HC5 1-Zephyr Belski 2-Thomas Lamb 3-Shane Lovely Just wanted to say great job guys congrats and it sounded like a great race (video feed was down ) Sorry to hear Jonathan and Andrie had car trouble, I hope you guys still had fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ekim952522000 Posted September 16, 2007 Author Share Posted September 16, 2007 Also if anyone has a list from the dyno and how much power all the cars made It would be cool to see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slammed_93_hatch Posted September 16, 2007 Share Posted September 16, 2007 bernardo 253whp kevin helms 225whp Andrie 204whp I'd like to know tq numbers also, thats all i could fine though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ekim952522000 Posted September 16, 2007 Author Share Posted September 16, 2007 Wow Andrie was down 50hp, That's crazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JW Racing Posted September 17, 2007 Share Posted September 17, 2007 (edited) 1. Bernardos car has way to much power http://www.k20a.org/forum/showpost.php?p=328252&postcount=1 2. chris d has 210whp in a k24 and got 3rd, good job chris. 3 sad to hear about your tranny issues andrie 4 congrats to helms, one fast car. Edited September 25, 2007 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSUCRX Posted September 17, 2007 Share Posted September 17, 2007 If this is true, I'm very disappointed in the news, I have met Bernardo and know the guys at HASport, this doesn't sound like something they would allow to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JW Racing Posted September 17, 2007 Share Posted September 17, 2007 Here is what hasport has to say http://www.k20a.org/forum/showpost.php?p=340165&postcount=81 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSUCRX Posted September 17, 2007 Share Posted September 17, 2007 makes sense, thanks for the clarification, Brian and the guys at HASport are all terrific sportsman, including Bernardo, and now that it's been explained, makes more sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRC/SampsonRacingComm. Posted September 17, 2007 Share Posted September 17, 2007 (edited) I have known Bernado for years, this much I can tell you: 1. He is very upstanding - a "cheater" I don't think so- Does he understand everything about his choice of car/motor... you better believe it! 2. He is a freak when it comes to car set-up. If you need a qualified person to set your car up (from cage to motor to shocks to tires...) and make it go fast... he is a very good choice! 3. Did I mention he is a car set-up freak... and more than all that... 4. He is a very good wheel-man w/ many track records and years of racing to prove it! BTW congrads to all the NASA 2007 HC Champions Edited September 17, 2007 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeski38 Posted September 17, 2007 Share Posted September 17, 2007 Way to go Bernardo and hasport on an awesome motor and a great race! 253 whp is unbelievable on stock cams at 7000k. HC rules commitee, you guys blew this one. No one of official capacity has come forward and explained clearly if this motor is legal or not, and I don't mean something buried in an online forum thread here or H-T. Now bernardo won nats as was only able to compete by rev limiting his motor! Where is that in the rules? I am very disappointed in the ambiguity surrounding this issue. It has affected all competitors and has greatly shaken my confidence in the current HC rules commitee. Please don't misunderstand me and think that I am upset at Bernardo, because he built a sweet motor, he is a great competitor and talented chassis engineer and driver. My beef is with how the questions raised by the motor were handled by HC officials. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0x1 Posted September 17, 2007 Share Posted September 17, 2007 Now is NASA going to enforce the rules on engines or not? What is illegal here? I don't get it. Bearings are free. People have been using that rule to their advantage for years by running looser rod and main bearings. I don't see how someone could protest thinner bearings in the small end of the rod. Even if machining was needed to make them fit (and I'm not saying it was), there is plenty of precedent for that in other parts of the H1 rules (see notching pistons for valve clearance, etc). As far as I can tell, if the rods are OEM and the pistons are OEM, then there's nothing more to see here. I think they're well within the spirit of the rules personally and congrats to them for finding the awesome setup (and on the National Championship). How is a low budget guy like me going to compete against higher budget teams ? You can't/won't. That's why we have multiple classes. I can't afford to run H1, so I run H4 on a budget and do pretty well. Going fast costs money. If you don't have enough money to go fast, then you have to either have fun while losing or get into a slower class that is more budget friendly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris F Posted September 17, 2007 Share Posted September 17, 2007 Way to go Bernardo and hasport on an awesome motor and a great race! 253 whp is unbelievable on stock cams at 7000k. I was watching over the shoulder of the dyno guy, I'm pretty sure I saw it rev to 7500. Who's saying it was rev limited ("for safety") to 7000? -Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JW Racing Posted September 17, 2007 Share Posted September 17, 2007 Now is NASA going to enforce the rules on engines or not? What is illegal here? I don't get it. Bearings are free. People have been using that rule to their advantage for years by running looser rod and main bearings. I don't see how someone could protest thinner bearings in the small end of the rod. Even if machining was needed to make them fit (and I'm not saying it was), there is plenty of precedent for that in other parts of the H1 rules (see notching pistons for valve clearance, etc). As far as I can tell, if the rods are OEM and the pistons are OEM, then there's nothing more to see here. I think they're well within the spirit of the rules personally and congrats to them for finding the awesome setup (and on the National Championship). How is a low budget guy like me going to compete against higher budget teams ? You can't/won't. That's why we have multiple classes. I can't afford to run H1, so I run H4 on a budget and do pretty well. Going fast costs money. If you don't have enough money to go fast, then you have to either have fun while losing or get into a slower class that is more budget friendly. thats not possible with a k series. once your car has a K you cant just go back after you cut the tranny mount out..Im stuck with K, i just want the rules to be less vague on engine mods for K series. or have HU added. H1 to me is the new HU. besides to me if dyno is all they do to test your motor, we can put whatever we want in it as long as the power isnt obviously higher.whos not to say someone is running a type r cam or rs cast pistons in their B20(illegal) when they arent supposed to.. the rules need to be held up somewhere.I just dont see how you can make all these internal engine rules and not be able to uphold them. class the car by motor , weight and dyno numbers and thats it. ..make it easier please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0x1 Posted September 17, 2007 Share Posted September 17, 2007 thats not possible with a k series. once your car has a K you cant just go back after you cut the tranny mount out..Im stuck with K, i just want the rules to be less vague on engine mods for K series. or have HU added. H1 to me is the new HU. I really don't want to sound too harsh here, but H1 was always intended to be the fast class with the big dollar motors built by tuners and stuff. It's where the sponsorship money is and it's really not a class for beginners. HU was only around for 1 year and had very little support, so really H1 has always been the top class. The H2-H5 classes have much more budget-friendly rulesets. This is not by accident. If you really want to be competitive and not spend a ton of money, then your only option is to move down in class. If your car will not work for the lower class (can't you just replace the crossmember?), then sell it and buy something that will. If you don't really care about being competitive, then just run your car and have fun not-winning. I wasn't being sarcastic when I said that the first time. It just doesn't make sense to build a car for a money class, then complain that the class is too expensive. besides to me if dyno is all they do to test your motor, we can put whatever we want in it as long as the power isnt obviously higher.whos not to say someone is running a type r cam or rs cast pistons in their B20(illegal) when they arent supposed to.. the rules need to be held up somewhere.I just dont see how you can make all these internal engine rules and not be able to uphold them. Motor teardowns are quite common for the competitive classes in the bigger regions. If you think someone has illegal parts in their motor, then it's up to you to protest them. There are lots of methods for testing motors. You can cc them, measure cams, measure compression, etc. I'd be really surprised to find out that none of this was done at Nationals, but I know that it has been done on a regional level in some places. class the car by motor , weight and dyno numbers and thats it. ..make it easier please. Maybe if weight/hp was all that mattered in racecars, this would be a good idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JW Racing Posted September 18, 2007 Share Posted September 18, 2007 its okay, everyone takes shots at me all the time, i take it as motivation. Im not complaining about cost , read close. Im complaining about fairness and who is upholding the rules. its not fair for a big dollar team with ,resources to do so, to manipulate the grey area to win. I am in second place before i pull my car off the trailer, and thats not how it should be. If building a car to squeeze the grey area to death is what Honda Challenge is about I will stay in TT or run SCCA... I want to help Honda Challenge grow by joining the competition if its fair. last , i have had B series engines in all my civics since 95, Im not going to put a single cam in my car because you think I shuld be in H4.The driving and racecraft is the same in each level really when you think about it.not knockin H4 at all either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeski38 Posted September 18, 2007 Share Posted September 18, 2007 I think you guys are all missing the point. The major problem here is not whether or not bernardo's motor is legal or should be legal, it is that it is certianly questionable and an HC official has yet to come forward and put this debate to bed. I know that there is a rules commitee member reading this, so please let us know ASAP. Is the modification to bernardo's K24 legal or not and why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JW Racing Posted September 18, 2007 Share Posted September 18, 2007 NOTE: Underline= Items Added / {Bracket= Deleted items} All Classes 7.1 a) Engines may be balanced and/or blueprinted. Lightning of moving parts beyond what is necessary to balance is prohibited. Engine bearings may be replaced with aftermarket replacements and engine clearances (piston to wall, valve lash, etc) are unrestricted and are considered blueprinting. Its a legal engine, maybe the weight is the real issue... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeski38 Posted September 18, 2007 Share Posted September 18, 2007 NOTE: Underline= Items Added / {Bracket= Deleted items} All Classes 7.1 a) Engines may be balanced and/or blueprinted. Lightning of moving parts beyond what is necessary to balance is prohibited. Engine bearings may be replaced with aftermarket replacements and engine clearances (piston to wall, valve lash, etc) are unrestricted and are considered blueprinting. Its a legal engine, maybe the weight is the real issue... Are you on the rules commitee? These rule can be interpreted in many ways, and only the interpretation of the rule commitee matters. I can cut and paste from the rulebook too. I want an HC official to tell me if it is a legal modification and how they came to that conclusion, that's it. And not because I agree or disagree with this mod being legal, it helps the competitors to interpret the rules correctly if we have an idea how "they" are interpreting them. Please post if you are on the rules commitee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JW Racing Posted September 18, 2007 Share Posted September 18, 2007 NOTE: Underline= Items Added / {Bracket= Deleted items} All Classes 7.1 a) Engines may be balanced and/or blueprinted. Lightning of moving parts beyond what is necessary to balance is prohibited. Engine bearings may be replaced with aftermarket replacements and engine clearances (piston to wall, valve lash, etc) are unrestricted and are considered blueprinting. Its a legal engine, maybe the weight is the real issue... Are you on the rules commitee? These rule can be interpreted in many ways, and only the interpretation of the rule commitee matters. I can cut and paste from the rulebook too. I want an HC official to tell me if it is a legal modification and how they came to that conclusion, that's it. And not because I agree or disagree with this mod being legal, it helps the competitors to interpret the rules correctly if we have an idea how "they" are interpreting them. Please post if you are on the rules commitee. If you have the 1 thousand to protest the win, you should do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slammed_93_hatch Posted September 18, 2007 Share Posted September 18, 2007 7.1 a) Engines may be balanced and/or blueprinted. Lightning of moving parts beyond what is necessary to balance is prohibited. Engine bearings may be replaced with aftermarket replacements and engine clearances (piston to wall, valve lash, etc) are unrestricted and are considered blueprinting You could say that machining the small end of the rod is not a typical engine clearance. And that is the way i look at it. But like Mike said, it is the rules committee's interpretation and clarification that is important. And remember the legality of the motor hasn't been officially ruled on yet. No one protested it at nationals, but that doesn't make it legal. I can see both side of the legal illegal issue. Both are legitimate interpretations of the rules. So what the rules committee has to do is figure out which one they feel is the best for the class and for the series. Could we get the tq numbers also from the H1 cars at nationals? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghettoracer Posted September 18, 2007 Share Posted September 18, 2007 in competitive racing boundaries and interpretation rules are always pushed by the creative ppl. when the rules isn't written clearly i don't think it is right to punish the competitors especially after the fact... the rules committee should suck it up and revise it for next year... or just leave it alone. to me i think it is well with in the rules and even the spirit... the rules was written to specifically allow any Honda engine parts to be used... minor mods to make the part fit should be ok. just my 2 cents of course. as for the budget required to replicate the hasport engine combo, i don't think it's that outrageous. budget is all relative... there will be always some one with more than you. are you going to cry about it all the times? hasport team isn't on a huge budget. if you ask me that car could use a new paint job... it looks pretty budget. lot of other H1 cars are way more spiffy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMSP Posted September 18, 2007 Share Posted September 18, 2007 One day I will be racing again, so I always watch these threads. Back in the late 80s and early 90's I was involved in Autox. I was running a 1st gen CRX in CSP. It took so much money to compete with these guys. Superlight wheels, $$$ ECUs and ITBs. I finally decided to spend less money and go faster. I went to EP. I'd really think it gets expensive to take the rules to their full "extent". I think everyone would enjoy the racing part of "racing" more if we had simplified rules. TB: Limit size to **.* mms IM: You can keep it as is, stupid and simple, however I find it funny that you can break the bank on the head but can't touch the IM. Head: Open, but same size and mat'l of OEM valves Cams: B: Open, K: OEM Block: B20 Block Guard is good, Clearancing for other OEM Cranks Pistons: Open, but .040" (or whatever) over bore limit Rods: Open, but no Ti, if you wanted you could limit length Pins: Open, damn it's a piston pin! I could make the argument that it's a fastener since it holds 2 pieces of the engine together. Crank/Stroke: OEM and limited to the engine family designation, i.e. K, D, B, H or F, etc. Just some ideas. What will we gain from this? None of the above complaining, frankly if you think it wasn't legal how that engine was built then it should have been protested. Period. But the rules above will make it easier to build an engine that we can all agree on, I bet build it cheaper and build it to last longer. Maybe Honda wouldn't like it since they wouldn't sell as many engines parts????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeski38 Posted September 18, 2007 Share Posted September 18, 2007 An HC official answered my questions privately. Just wanted to throw them a bone since I was pretty critical of them earlier. It seems they do consider this an issue and are working a solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stealth430 Posted September 18, 2007 Share Posted September 18, 2007 We do have to give credit where it's due. Hasport and Bernardo are pioneers for pushing the envelop of performance at the National, so now the rules committee and the competitors have some decisions to make. If the intent for the rules is to keep the B and K motors competitive, weight increase for K cars are one solution, or you can make it a spec K vs. open B motor series. Either way, H1 will be expensive if you want to run in front at the National. Unfortunately for people who are running a milder K in H1, they will be penalized as a result of this recent development. For people like Mikeski and myself who run on a tight budget, the suggestion to run a lower class is a valid one. H2 in norcal anyone?!? We still got 2 H4 cars also! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JW Racing Posted September 18, 2007 Share Posted September 18, 2007 IMO if the rules in H1 were like H2 and lower there would be more competitors. NOBODY is going to be able to uphold so many internal engine mod rules in H1 or others. And I highly doubt peoples motors will be taken apart after regional wins to see whats inside. Its funny how you can have all these rules but cant uphold them. However it should be cleared up soon because sadly, it is tarnishing the winner and thier enjoyment of winning the nationals. Thanks to this ordeal, Im highly considering not going K in H1 and stay B and run H2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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