Unofficial HC National results

[stealth430]

Thanks to this ordeal, Im highly considering not going K in H1 and stay B and run H2

 

You are exactly right about the cost escalation, and that's why we have 5 different classes. As for regional races, you will still get the guy with the most money invested. If you happen to beat him with your skills or your lesser car, you should take pride in that.

 

Questions to the rules committee: When will the 08 rules, or clarifications post national, be published? We are preparing for next year, and new cars will be built soon. Throw us a bone...

[JW Racing]

Thanks to this ordeal, Im highly considering not going K in H1 and stay B and run H2

 

You are exactly right about the cost escalation, and that's why we have 5 different classes. As for regional races, you will still get the guy with the most money invested. If you happen to beat him with your skills or your lesser car, you should take pride in that.

 

Questions to the rules committee: When will the 08 rules, or clarifications post national, be published? We are preparing for next year, and new cars will be built soon. Throw us a bone...

 

Good point

 

Plus one on the rules. Before I put an engine in, I want to know which one to put in, lol

 

New H1 = Run what ya brung. 2400 lbs min weight all cars. 2.0 litres or less ONLY open to all Honda mods.... Now you got a competitive class

[wm577]

I don't think the H22 guys in H1 would like that too much.

 

....anyway all the new guys coming to HC should build H2 cars

[Andrie]

I think you guys are all missing the point. The major problem here is not whether or not bernardo's motor is legal or should be legal, it is that it is certianly questionable and an HC official has yet to come forward and put this debate to bed.

 

I know that there is a rules commitee member reading this, so please let us know ASAP. Is the modification to bernardo's K24 legal or not and why?

 

Mike hit it right.

 

We just need a decision. If it is legal, I'll go ahead and build one. I don't want to build one and it is deemed illegal later on.

 

I asked this privately month before the event. Rule clarification, is what I called it. I need it cause I don't want to be put on the bind. I could not get a yes or no answer. So, I went to a gun fight bringing a knife. Dissapointing. But I don't envy the rule committee job.

 

I have no intention to protest, as if the rule committee themselves can't give me the right answer, who can?

 

Now is the time to shape the rule for next year. And it need to be determined long before the season start so everyone can be ready.

 

IMO, The B20 need to be the same weight with K20 as they are making the same power. Sure the K20 have 6 speed, but it doesn't matter since usable gears are only 5 anyway. The B series have lots of gear choices anyway.

 

The K24 need to be finalized on what is legal or not. What I or any competitors think legal or not is doesn't matter. It is the rule committee job to anwser rule clarification and decide the matter.

[6ghatch]

I agree with Andrie.

Edited September 19, 2007 by Guest

[ekim952522000]

It's pretty clear allot of people are upset over this motor, I was just wondering why no one protested the motor at nationals? wouldn't that have forced a decesion then and there?

[6ghatch]

It's pretty clear allot of people are upset over this motor, I was just wondering why no one protested the motor at nationals? wouldn't that have forced a decesion then and there?

 

Well, it costs $1000 to do a protest and currently there is a grey area of the rules concerning bearings/bushings.

[ekim952522000]

Did not know it cost that much to protest that explains it.

[bernardo]

Has anybody built a K20 to the limit of the rules? I don't know of one.

 

 

b.

[stealth430]

Has anybody built a K20 to the limit of the rules? I don't know of one.

 

Bernardo, I am sorry to see the negativity surrounding this motor you built. We should all congratulate you for winning the national. I wouldn't expect anyone with the right resources to NOT push the rule, it is the national after all!

 

Andrie is right in calling for a ruling before 08 starts, we need to know. To the rules writters, have you set a date on the next set of rules revision?

[ekim952522000]

I don't think anyone is being negative towards bernardo at all. I know I'm not I think he drove the hell out of that car and did a great job.

 

Everyone just wants some clarity on the engine wheter it is legal or not and would like to know soon so they can make plans for next year.

 

So I'll say it again congrats Bernardo and all who competed

[slammed_93_hatch]

Has anybody built a K20 to the limit of the rules? I don't know of one.

 

 

b.

 

It is about class equality, that is it.

 

If the k20 can have some secrete combo of pistons put in it, then it should probably be examined also.

 

Because of class equality.

 

This does not mean that the motors should be illegal, but SOMETHING has to be done.

 

The b16a, B18, B20/vtec (which should also have its weight examined), h22a, H23/vtec, SOHC, TL type S, S2k, NSX would all have to be able to compete against these new motors. I say new because until recently this wasn't really know.

[6ghatch]

I don't think anyone is being negative towards bernardo at all. I know I'm not I think he drove the hell out of that car and did a great job.

 

Everyone just wants some clarity on the engine wheter it is legal or not and would like to know soon so they can make plans for next year.

 

So I'll say it again congrats Bernardo and all who competed

 

Exactly, I've said it before. I'm more dissapointed in the lack of clarity on this issue from the rules commitee and NASA allowing a rule ammendment just weeks before nationals.

 

Again, Congrats to Bernardo and the Hasport team you guys put together a great car and drove an excellent race.

 

Now moving into 2008 I think if we want to limit the k series motors we need to not allow modification or hybriding any K series bottom ends. Or come up with a soultion to balance all the other cars in the cass.

 

Here is the issue I see, if you allow it you can't just give the other cars a weigh break, most the these cars are already as light as they can get them. You can't just open up the rules for the other cars and force everyone else to put more time and money into new motor builds just to balance the field to one motor. Another option would be to add weight to the K24, this would kill brakes and tires and slow it down a bit, but I'm not sure enough. I know I'd be out if this were to happen, why would I spend more money to build my motor only to add weight and kill my brakes and tires faster then they do currently. Plus I already have 150lbs of ballast in my car with a 200lbs limit according to the rules.

 

These are the things we need to discuss going forward to 08.

 

Also, I'd like to see a set date/deadline during the year for rule ammendments.

[PSUCRX]

Has anybody built a K20 to the limit of the rules? I don't know of one.

 

 

b.

 

It is about class equality, that is it.

 

If the k20 can have some secrete combo of pistons put in it, then it should probably be examined also.

 

Because of class equality.

 

This does not mean that the motors should be illegal, but SOMETHING has to be done.

 

The b16a, B18, B20/vtec (which should also have its weight examined), h22a, H23/vtec, SOHC, TL type S, S2k, NSX would all have to be able to compete against these new motors. I say new because until recently this wasn't really know.

 

I agree, and oddly enough this method was known, just not really well. Joe MacArthy who i'm sure some of you have seen on the American Togue 2 video with his Lotus Elise, was the first person I remember hearing do this about a year or 2 ago. This was in a K20 engine as well, I can't remember if it's EXACTLY the same, but he essentially made a K23 using K24 and K20 parts in addition to the S2000 Pistons, I believe he used the crank as well.

 

All in all, a huge congrats to Bernardo, no doubt you deserved this championship. Let's just hope that the rules committee can get this all worked out as soon as possible so the field in H1 will be equalized for the 08 season.

[bernardo]

My comment about the K20 was in response to the thought that the B20 should weigh more inline with a K20, I don't believe a B20 will be able to produce the power and TQ of a K20 built to the limit of current rule set.

 

b.

[stealth430]

My comment about the K20 was in response to the thought that the B20 should weigh more inline with a K20, I don't believe a B20 will be able to produce the power and TQ of a K20 built to the limit of current rule set.

 

b.

 

I can't agree more. wt/hp or a combo or wt/tq/hp is where this discussion is heading to. Look at how CMC regulates their series with periodic dyno and weight adjustment. It works. I forgot if I posted it here or on Hondatech, but I posted some numbers on wt/hp based on "expected" engine output. The current rules work well if you assume someone uses a very mild, stock like K motor. When you start modding the K like the B, then the rules fall short.

[ekim952522000]

It seems pretty clear to me that the only real choice is to not allow any parts in the bottom of a k24 that did not come in a k24.(maybe K20's too I'm not sure on that)

 

Because there only only a few choices here.

 

1. Allow the K series to be built this way and increase the weight of them I imagine it would take quite a bit of weight to offset that kind of power advantage.

 

2. Allow the Kseries to be built and reduce the weight of all the other cars.

 

3. Make the K series use a factory bottom end.

 

choice #1 sucks for the guys like Chris and Andrie who already have good reliable K24's. All that would happen is they would have to build a new engine, go threw way more brakes and tires and just spend more money to not go any faster, because if they did go faster than the balance of the class would be messed up.

 

Choice number 2 Wouldn't really work, allot of people have trouble making minimum weight as it is. If this route was taken you probably could say good bye to all the B16/B18 guys because they would never make weight.

 

Choice 3 is the only option that makes any sense to me at all. it would maintain the balance of the class. It was pretty clear from the video that Chris posted that the K24(using factory parts) and the B20's are very evenly balanced. It was shown earlier this year that the B18 I think it was driven by Dave Brown? are also competetive, and we already know the H22's are from Mike Lock's performance this year. So I think this is the best option to maintain the balance of H1.

 

Does anyone have a reasonable argument for why this motor should be allowed? It seems to me watching from the outside that nobody wants it to be, and agree it would make a mess of things. Right now we are talking about one person having to make a change, the other choices would force allot of people to makes changes.

 

As far as the K20 weight thing I don't know about that it will all depend on whether or not the rules committee decides to allow different parts in the bottom end of K series or not next year.

 

Is there a option I am not thinking about? Maybe a combination of two of the above?

 

That's my 2 cents....ok maybe it was 4

[Andrie]

I do not wish to be difficult by any means. My only gripes was how the matter was handled in the past. I suspected of the engine right after Bernardo broke the record at Willow Springs. It was then confirmed by Bernardo own admission to me. From then on, I worked behind the scene, and ask the rule committee of the rule clarification. Here is the time line

 

Aug 20, I sent an email to Ryan Flaherty, CC'd Mike Quan and Brian Zoraster, regarding rule clarification. I cited several paragraph from the rule book.

 

Aug 21, I got an email from Ryan Flaherty, citing boring the rod to accomodate the bigger wrist pin is illegal.

 

Aug 22, Hytech posted about the engine in public forum. http://www.k20a.org

The post doesn't really say what is involved in making the motor. Naturally, with all the secrecy, people speculate.

 

August 25, I have another discussion with Bernardo, which he made a rather convincing argument that Hytech did not bore the rod, rather the bushing. Since neither, his, nor my interpretation of the rule matter without Rule committee blessing, I sent another email to Ryan on August 27.

 

I got an immediate response, which this time, we all agreed that this is a grey area that need to be clarified. From this on, our discussion is through the phone.

 

I informed Ryan, that I don't envy the rule committee job, but they need to make a decision asap to let me know if this modifications will be allowed or not. If it is allowed, I plan to build the engine and be ready for Nationals.

 

August 27, 5:04pm. Rule addendum is posted on NASA forums.

 

August 28, 9am, I had another conversation with Ryan. At this point, Ryan still do not have a definitive answer. I was running out of options. Without a definitive answer, I can not build a motor which could be deemed illegal later.

 

Like I said, I don't envy the rule committee job. But it is their job to make the decision.

 

I do believe in the series, and the process. I tried to follow the process to get a definitive answer, either way, I wasn't successful. I was dissapointed.

 

To be clear, I'm not dissapointed with Bernardo nor Hasport. Their job is to push to the limit. I actually applaud them for doing so.

 

My dissapointment is with the rule committee.

 

Now, the matter at hand are:

1. The rule committee need to come to a definitive answer if the engine is legal. I assume it is legal since nothing is made at Mid Ohio.

2. Since it is legal, what will this do the balance the field in H1? Is rule revision need to be made?

3. Lesson learned. What can we improve in the future?

[JW Racing]

I agree with bernardo, no one has built a K20 to the limit that I know of, as for the B20/vtec it needs to be the same weight as K20 cars. K24 leave alone weight but mandate stock bottom ends. The engine rules can never be upheld, whos going to take motors apart,lol. You need a dyno test at each event for podium cars,and class the car by weight and power and this wont happen.

 

What ever happens needs to happen because people like me are building cars for next year and need to know if the motor we are putting in will be legal or what weight we need to be at.

[Andrie]

The engine rules can never be upheld, whos going to take motors apart,lol. You need a dyno test at each event for podium cars,and class the car by weight and power and this wont happen.

 

You are new. Taking engine apart is more common than you think. There are few instances where H1 and H4 cars had to have their engine torn down.

[JW Racing]

well thats good to know they try to uphold engine rules. I feel bad for those who got out motored that it wasnt done this time around.

 

Not hating on the motor either, chute I spoke with the builder and if I can come up with the money soon and the rules stay similar, I will have one built. Im hating on the grey are not being clarified and no one in the comittee saying anything to the public about this.

[SMSP]

Aug 21, I got an email from Ryan Flaherty, citing boring the rod to accomodate the bigger wrist pin is illegal.

 

August 25, I have another discussion with Bernardo, which he made a rather convincing argument that Hytech did not bore the rod, rather the bushing. Since neither, his, nor my interpretation of the rule matter without Rule committee blessing, I sent another email to Ryan on August 27.

 

OK, the TSX pin is the same pin used for the 02-06 RSX and 04-07 TSX.

the 06-07 TSX uses one connecting rod and the 04-05 TSX uses another but they both use the same pin.

 

There is no part number for a "bushing" for any of the 04-07 TSX connecting rods or the the RSX rods either. Can someone please post a picture of one of these rods so we can see the bushing? I'd be interested to see how thick the bushing wall is.

[Andrie]

There is no part number because it is not available as seperate part from Honda.

 

It is Bronze like bushing. Thickness is close to 0.8mm.

[mikeski38]

I don't know why the rules commitee is dragging their feet like this. I was contacted privately by a rule commitee member with some info on the subject that would put out a lot of these fires. Maybe the info I got was just to shut me up, who knows? But regardless, "they" had better say something quick. The rumors I'm starting to hear are getting really nasty toward NASA and HC.

[ekim952522000]

I agree Mike It is making the series look bad right now.

 

I don't understand why they would contact you privately and not let everyone else know what they are thinking.