Unofficial HC National results

[stealth430]

The existing rules for H1 state a min weight per engine choice (or should we say engine block?). It is clear that the intention is to keep the power to weight ratio within a certain range so that different engine types can compete on a fair level. The current innovations have pushed the envelop such that the approach might be outdated. I have posted some hp/wt numbers before, and it is clear why the S2k24 is clearly superior.

 

Therefore, here's what I am proposing for the H1 class: Balance the cars by weight based on dyno results. Andrie and I have discussed this in private before and it makes sense for open-engine type classes. CMC allows blueprinting and they use this system with great results. The majority of the H1 competitors will have dyno work done anyway (your loss if you don't!). The problem lies in competitors being honest about their dyno results, and there are loopholes even if we enforce NASA approved dyno stations. At the weekend/grassroots level, the honor system can work. At the National level, we already have a dyno ready to go, nothing new to do here.

 

Let me say this before I get off my rant. We are very lucky to be able to have large turn outs at the local HC races. More cars the merrier. The RC have done a good job in not alienating any particular Honda product or competitor, and that deserves some accolades.

[jmeris]

I would like to see the s2k piston as well for the progression but there will be no pairity. maybe allow aftermarket cams for k20 and allow b series to sleeve ,s2000 to use oem cranks from K,finally H to use B trannies or something along those lines...

 

If the K24 was allowed to use the s2k pistons, how would allowing to sleeve the B20 maintain it's competitiveness against the hybrid k24? Sleeving the B20 would only increase it's reliability, not it's power.

 

jmeris

[ekim952522000]

Me personally would like to go faster, thus allowing the S2K pistons.

 

That being said, I have no clue how to make parity if that is allowed. Like I said, it is not an easy job the rule maker has.

 

So the answer, I don't know. I would like to hear input, though.

 

I can't think of a way to to keep it balanced eiether. The dyno method sounds good in theroy, but I think on a national level it would get very abused.

 

Would you still want to run the motor Andrie if it means you have to carry a whole bunch more weight?

 

Could the B16's and B18's be made light enough to hang with this motor?

 

I think the current method of classing the engine blocks is great and has worked very well until now......

 

I would like to find a way to balance the class without having a whole bunch of diffrent rules for each engine but this is looking less and less like a possibilty.

 

I am out of ideas on what to do and don't envy the RC at all right now.

[slammed_93_hatch]

 

That is a slippery slope i wouldn't want to go down. Seen it happen before and the results were not good.

 

The cam shaft rules used to state that cam shafts were "unrestricted". So a few people ran Toda Vtec killers. I don't know the specifics but to use these cams something in the rocker assembly needs to be removed or replaced, and or modified. These cams were deemed illegal.

 

Why? camshafts are unrestriced. true

 

But because one thing is unrestricted doesn't mean that you can change something else that isn't addressed in the rules.

 

 

OK, slammed you got me confused now.

 

9.3 states camshafts are unrestricted and

 

9.3.1 © states “Above the engine blockâ€

[stealth430]

Would you still want to run the motor Andrie if it means you have to carry a whole bunch more weight?

 

Could the B16's and B18's be made light enough to hang with this motor?

 

I am out of ideas on what to do and don't envy the RC at all right now.

 

You are now seeing how this weight/power theory could work. Once the RC identifies a formula for weight/power, you are free to go 300+hp only if you are willing to tag on some serious weight. This approach does not require a rule change every time someone comes up with a top secret mod in the grey area. How often do you guys want to argue about bearing honing? Do we all have the ability to have an engine development program?

 

Let's face it, power will most likely be a discriminator in H1. Once we have identified a baseline weight/power type approach, we can go with small tweaks for different chassis. This is just one way to skin this cat. Let's hear some more ideas. I am sure the RC brain trust is not far behind.

[6ghatch]

Chris D said it had a RBC intake manifold. You have to heavily mod the coolant passage to fit. not legal.

 

Not if he is using the 06+ si head or the K24a2 head, they have the coolant passage. I tried a RBC with a Euro Accord Type R throttle body on my motor but lost power everywhere.

[slammed_93_hatch]

I am a huge fan of the way the current rules work, some time there are loop holes but they get tied up most of the time.

 

I do not like, however, involving electronics in the rules processes. I have zero knowledge about how CMC cars are tuned, but i do know more about how hondas are tuned.

 

It is very easy to set up some switch system to switch you between two programs, maybe even more. the system can be extremely simple, such as a switch on the dash. Or it could be much more complex such as a fan switch, fuel pump switch, ect... needs to be cycled a certain number of times.

 

 

And as with any software/electronic things can be hidden. So you can not really ever see if some one is cheating.

 

Unlike the current rules, were legality can be determined. Sure it isn't easy, but at lest legality can be determined.

 

If i were on the rules committee i would set the K's apart, as they already are in all honesty, and say that the K motors must use K24 OEM parts in the bottom end and k20's must use OEM k20 parts in their bottom ends.

 

This would put us back to what all of K motors, to my knowledge, were at up until bernardo's motor.

 

Then i would focus on leveling the playing field even more for H1.

 

Why? IMO this would be the least amount of work for the RC, and fairly easy.

 

If people want to run high HP motors maybe a HU of some sort should be brought back. But i have a feeling that the results would be similar to 06 and not many people would run, i think an NSX ran 1 or 2 races in HU in the SE but not sure.

 

 

As a whole i REALLY want more clarification on the whole RC thing. And would like to see it put in the Rule book.

[ekim952522000]

I am a huge fan of the way the current rules work, some time there are loop holes but they get tied up most of the time.

 

I do not like, however, involving electronics in the rules processes. I have zero knowledge about how CMC cars are tuned, but i do know more about how hondas are tuned.

 

It is very easy to set up some switch system to switch you between two programs, maybe even more. the system can be extremely simple, such as a switch on the dash. Or it could be much more complex such as a fan switch, fuel pump switch, ect... needs to be cycled a certain number of times.

 

 

And as with any software/electronic things can be hidden. So you can not really ever see if some one is cheating.

 

Unlike the current rules, were legality can be determined. Sure it isn't easy, but at lest legality can be determined.

 

If i were on the rules committee i would set the K's apart, as they already are in all honesty, and say that the K motors must use K24 OEM parts in the bottom end and k20's must use OEM k20 parts in their bottom ends.

 

This would put us back to what all of K motors, to my knowledge, were at up until bernardo's motor.

 

Then i would focus on leveling the playing field even more for H1.

 

Why? IMO this would be the least amount of work for the RC, and fairly easy.

 

If people want to run high HP motors maybe a HU of some sort should be brought back. But i have a feeling that the results would be similar to 06 and not many people would run, i think an NSX ran 1 or 2 races in HU in the SE but not sure.

 

 

As a whole i REALLY want more clarification on the whole RC thing. And would like to see it put in the Rule book.

 

I agree with all of that Jimmy.

 

What are your thoughts on limiting the K24 to OEM K24 cams and the K20 to OEM K20 cams.

 

I think it would be resonable to put a rule in place for all engines like.

You may only use parts in the bottom end that came in that series of engine.

 

So you could only use B series parts in B series and only use H series parts in H series etc...I think it would help avoid this type of thing in the fture.

[6ghatch]

[What are your thoughts on limiting the K24 to OEM K24 cams and the K20 to OEM K20 cams.

 

I think it would be resonable to put a rule in place for all engines like.

You may only use parts in the bottom end that came in that series of engine.

 

So you could only use B series parts in B series and only use H series parts in H series etc...I think it would help avoid this type of thing in the fture.

 

Cams are not much of an issue because the 06+ K24a2 TSX motor has the pretty much the same cams as the JDM ITR/RSX-S, it uses the same intake cam as the type R with a slightly larger exhaust cam.

[ekim952522000]

[What are your thoughts on limiting the K24 to OEM K24 cams and the K20 to OEM K20 cams.

 

I think it would be resonable to put a rule in place for all engines like.

You may only use parts in the bottom end that came in that series of engine.

 

So you could only use B series parts in B series and only use H series parts in H series etc...I think it would help avoid this type of thing in the fture.

 

Cams are not much of an issue because the 06+ K24a2 TSX motor has the pretty much the same cams as the JDM ITR/RSX-S, it uses the same intake cam as the type R with a slightly larger exhaust cam.

 

Cool I did not know that.

[slammed_93_hatch]

 

I agree with all of that Jimmy.

 

What are your thoughts on limiting the K24 to OEM K24 cams and the K20 to OEM K20 cams.

 

I think it would be resonable to put a rule in place for all engines like.

You may only use parts in the bottom end that came in that series of engine.

 

So you could only use B series parts in B series and only use H series parts in H series etc...I think it would help avoid this type of thing in the fture.

 

That would make a few motors illegal. I am pretty sure Peter C runs an H series motor with a b series tranny. And maybe other H motors that run B or D alternators

[ekim952522000]

Hmmmmm...I was refeering mostly to the internal parts maybe you could still allow everything else to be sourced from other engines.

(just brain storming)

[Ryan F.]

I would like to thank everyone for their thoughts on the matter at hand (S2k pistons in K24) and making it clear that the goal of H1 is to keep parity between the cars. I hope everyone knows that equality is the number one goal for the rule committee and we have a call scheduled early next week to begin discussions on rule changes and or clarifications for next year. I can make everyone a guarantee that we will publish a release shortly thereafter to address specifics for H1 engine builds.

 

Lastly, since so much discussion has taken place and “confidentiallyâ€