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TTS Update


Pat L.

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1. Yes.

 

2. Yes

 

3. Yes, and 2 were offred to him at no charge. Within an short drive.

 

4. TT never withdrew the protest.

 

5. Yes he was as he was under protest. Hence the need for 2 pictures from the A group untill the protest could be resolved.

 

6. Liberals always believe the best in everyone and don't want to be mean to anyone. So......Yeah.

 

But I still love ya' hippie boy.

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I guess the big question is what did Pat Dyno at? Since he hasn't told us I'm pretty sure we all know the answer.

 

I just looked over the entrant list that I printed off the NASA site last week. It has Pat in TTU, why would that have changed since he said he was 110% sure his car was "TTS legal" until he went to the dyno?

 

Because Danny wasn't registerd untill very late for TTU. My guess based on observed power is on his race tune (remember the Audi can hide 5 tunes in the turn signal stalk) he was about 6.5 or 6.8 he knew he couldn't beat Danny so he went down.

 

He can say whatever he wants, the refusal to seal the port, the refusal to dyno untill everyone was making a stink about it tells me without a doubt he was cheating.

 

But what the hell lots of people cheat,(look at NASCAR) he just cheated too much, and got caught.

 

Knowning Patrick and reading his post. I'm sure it was a honest mistake. These things happen sometime. It takes a stand-up guy like Patrick to admit to the mistake.

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This seems pretty cut and dry. It's either:

 

1) If he was pretty close the the correct hp/wt ratio he probably was just an honest guy who didn't get his tune right when trying to switch from TTU to TTS. I agree with rogue that Danny P's late entry was likely motivation to go TTS. Of course nothing wrong with that if you're running a TTS car. I could understand being a few hp off and maybe even sneaking in a last second tune (lack of sealed data port) if you're scrambling to set your car up for a slower class.

 

2) His dyno numbers were well over the limit (30hp or more) and he was simply cheating, nothing more. Forget all this talk about honesty/integrity. It sounds like he's a nice guy, but repeatedly failing to seal the data port, pulling cars down the straight that are well quicker than what his should run (he DID get protested in both TTS and ST2...something had to stink a little for this), and failure to disclose the numbers openly are reasonable evidence for this scenario.

 

10-30hp high - I'd say that's the grey area where you could argue either way.

 

Hence why we'd like to see the dyno sheets. Silence makes me suspect #2.

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2) His dyno numbers were well over the limit (30hp or more)

 

 

Oh, so you saw the car's dyno numbers?

 

 

Hence why we'd like to see the dyno sheets. Silence makes me suspect #2.

 

 

Oh, so you didnt see the car's dyno numbers?

 

Not understanding how its cut and dry? Sounds like the kennedy assasination theory all over again.

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This seems pretty cut and dry.

 

1) If he was pretty close the the correct hp/wt ratio he probably was just an honest guy who didn't get his tune right when trying to switch from TTU to TTS. I agree with rogue that Danny P's late entry was likely motivation to go TTS. Of course nothing wrong with that if you're running a TTS car. I could understand being a few hp off and maybe even sneaking in a last second tune (lack of sealed data port) if you're scrambling to set your car up for a slower class.

 

2) His dyno numbers were well over the limit (30hp or more) and he was simply cheating, nothing more. Forget all this talk about honesty/integrity. It sounds like he's a nice guy, but repeatedly failing to seal the data port, pulling cars down the straight that are well quicker than what his should run (he DID get protested in both TTS and ST2...something had to stink a little for this), and failure to disclose the numbers openly are reasonable evidence for this scenario.

 

10-30hp high - I'd say that's the grey area where you could argue either way.

 

Hence why we'd like to see the dyno sheets. Silence makes me suspect #2.

 

Really 30 hp? Are you sure? Did you see the Dyno Sheet or did you just pull them number out of thin air?

 

As far as I know... The Dyno numbers are Property of NASA, so people like you don't make false statements like this.

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Huh??

 

I said one of those two scenarios are likely true. I don't pretend to know which one is the truth.

 

If #1 is true I'd say the guy made an honest mistake. If #2 is true I'd say he's simply a cheat. I just chose 30hp high b/c that's well outside any honest margin of error IMO.

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Really 30 hp? Are you sure? Did you see the Dyno Sheet or did you just pull them number out of then air?

 

He means THIN air.

okay you caught me... wrong hand typo.

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Huh??

 

I said one of those two scenarios are likely true. I don't pretend to know which one is the truth.

 

If #1 is true I'd say the guy made an honest mistake. If #2 is true I'd say he's simply a cheat. I just chose 30hp high b/c that's well outside any honest margin of error IMO.

 

 

OH!!!

So your saying its either #1 or #2.

 

Your post was rather confusing sir in which case I would agree with you. It could be your #1 theory OR it could be your #2 theory. I concur!

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Oh, so you didnt see the car's dyno numbers?

 

Not understanding how its cut and dry? Sounds like the kennedy assasination theory all over again.

 

No, I have not seen the numbers...hence why I was asking for them earlier.

 

I edited my post with an "it's either" so as to avoid confusion. Glad we're on the same page.

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It over with. Patrick has already been DQ’d in TTS and he DQ’d himself in ST2. It doesn’t do any good to press this issue. Nothing good will come out of pressing the issue any further. It’s done, case closed and move on.

Let NASA handle the rest.

 

It is my policy in Spec Focus if the car doesn’t not meet the Hp-to-Weight requirements it’s DQ’d.... no numbers will be posted because of this type of mob action. The car is simply DQ'd and further action will be taken by NASA.

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I don't think that's quite fair Ted. There are a lot of people trying to decide what to think of all this. Many more than those posting here.

 

There are certainly a lot of people putting Pat on a pedestal for honesty and integrity when that DEFINITELY is false if he showed up to nationals with the intention of cheating, which could be the case.

 

On the other hand, a lot of people would like to feel good knowing he is the honest guy they believe he is if he just made an honest error and tuned it a bit tight for the TTS rules.

 

There are good arguments for both scenarios, but the dyno would be the most quantifiable evidence of the truth.

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Sorry Ted against my better judgment I am going to wade into this because I, 1) was in the middle of it and 2) because I feel strongly enough about things that I would like to say my piece.

 

I was the ST2 competitor who filed the protest. The sole reason I withdrew it was also the reason that I filed it in the first place, for the good of the competitors in ST2. Now I will never accuse someone of cheating unless I have absolute proof so I’m not going to debate whether or not Pat was cheating but I will speak out against the car he brought and how the situation was handled.

 

First off Pat you didn’t bring a gun to a knife fight you brought a Howitzer. I’m glad you enjoyed having me at the event but as you were 3 seconds a lap quicker than me I never got to run with you. After spending the last 4 days racing against you I have no idea if you out drove your competition or simply out spent them. If you want to spend the kind of money you are spending, go Pro racing. There you can go head to head with the best guys in the US in cars that are designed to be equal (and an organization that spends millions of dollars to make sure that they are) and prove that you are the great driver that some people think you are. My goal in coming to this event wasn’t to come in with a full factory effort and beat everyone into submission, take your trophey’s, sleep with your podium girls and leave, but simply to enjoy racing against guys that are just doing this for the shear joy of racing. Had I wanted to win (even against your car) I could have called up my guys at Dodge Motorsport and had them ship down a 400hp motor (which would have still be within the rules for my car in ST2) with a bunch of 3R Racing engineers (I had King Rat Motorsports run the car for me at Nats) thrown some Michelin slicks on and gone out and run 1:30 laps. But what would that have proved? That I can get Dodge to spend more money and build a better car than you? Had I gone and done that and you went and got DQed anyways I would have beaten Tony with a factory effort, 400hp, SRT4 and not by out driving him and I then would have had to step aside as I wouldn’t have felt right in winning that way.

 

Second, I also know from following you (for the very short period of time that I was near you) that you weren’t WOT (wide open throttle) shifting. The fastest way down the straight in a turbo car is not to lift while shifting. Also your shifts were very slow. Now maybe you have a bad gear box but …… Had you not lifted down the back straight your terminal velocity would have been around 150mph compared to my 136 mph and Tony’s 132 mph (est) and the ST1 guys 151 mph!!!! (BTW several ST1 drivers were annoyed with Pat because he was getting in the way of their battles and they couldn’t get around him on the straights!) WOT shift and you would have been in the 1:30's with the fastest ST1 guys. You want to show true sportsmanship? Man up and run ST1 (which you would have qualified 4th for) and drive the piss out of your car. You win or you finish 10th you got my respect. My former teammate Dan Awedia did a local event a few months ago and they put his car in ST2. He lapped the field something like 6 times in the enduro the first day. So did he stay around and beat up on the ST2 guys some more to feel good about himself, nope he jumped up to ST1 (and won that as well). Respect.

 

Pat, I don’t know if you came to Nats to fill out your CV to take Pro racing and you thought that dominating would look better but I would have loved nothing better than racing you head to head (in somewhat more equal cars) and then being able to go the guys at Stasis or Real Time Racing and say hey you should take a look at this kid he’s the real deal.

 

Third. Even though you haven’t answered exactly how much HP you car was making (although you have been asked) I don’t think that it makes much difference. If you were only 1 hp over and you were running your car that close to the limit of the rules even though you were 3 seconds a lap clear of second place then you should be DQed. Mistake or not. Drop your boost 1 psi and you would still be 2.8 seconds clear and well within in the rules. Not to do that makes me question… well quite a lot actually.

 

Now lastly The only reason I dropped the protest was that after talking with the officials (and giving them my data to compare against yours) they convinced me that your car was probably legal and that you had found a loophole in the ST rules (ie that you car was making massive amounts of torque and not hp) and built a car that while unreasonably fast for it classification was probably legal. Since I didn’t come to the race to be a PITA I decided that protesting was just going to take the officials away from their jobs and cause a distraction, all for something that they felt was probably legal. So I withdrew my protest, however I stated in no uncertain terms it was my professional opinion that the car did not meet class specs. Had your car not passed tech for the TT class and you either did not withdraw or were DQed for the ST class I would have been far more vocal in my protest and used really bad language in doing so.

 

Pat it sounds as if there are several people that have good things to say about you and I’m sure you’re a nice person but from the way this situation was handled it’s tough for me to feel bad for you or to think that you showed some great level of sportsmanship by owning up. Real sportsmanship, to me anyways, would have been showing up with a car that was better suited for the class, or running a class up, or even dropping your power to a more reasonable level after you realized that you were substantially faster than everone one else in class and racing with us.

 

For me the guy who showed true sportsmanship and has my highest regard is ST2 driver Rudy Orawiec who started officially in second to last place but when he realized that I was starting behind him he looked me dead in the eye and said “You’re fast you need to start ahead of me so I don’t get in your way. If I finish last I’m still the happiest guy here because I get to be out here racing!â€

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Fantastic post Robb.

 

You were the most gracious person in that group that was at the tower, and I had no idea why because it was affecting you the most of the people there.

 

The class act's in this situation were you and Tony. As well as Moser in TTA.

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oh jesus christ already

 

Sorry Hippie....

 

Pat,

 

You are a great man, for all the children of the world to emulate. If only we could all have the honesty and integrity that you do. I had previously looked upon my grandfather as a role model. Now that I have found you I will share this story with my kids for them to look at and strive towards.

 

 

 

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You guys are misreading BQuick's post--he's not saying it DID dyno 30 over, he's saying hypothetically if he did dyno over 30 then he should have known the car was illegal.

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MOMMY JOHNNY BEAT ME UP ,

Pat is the only one showing any class hear . He at least had the humility to post here , and out in the WEST thats MANNIN UP .

Take your bomb throwing overseas

Another Western Conservitive

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I got no dog in this fight so not sure why I'm doing this....

 

But my only comment is that the AWD cars had those little nifty GPS boxes that were supposed to allow NASA to figure out if someone was on the edge or over the edge weight/power. It would have been nice if that data would have been reviewed and any cars that were playing it too closely would have been examined prior to a protest being filed. Seems like that could have given Patrick time to add weight and saved some hard feelings.

 

About Patrick - whether he made an honest mistake or got caught out, at least he came on here and posted instead of just disappearing. So instead of bashing him, maybe let's just try to find a way to make things work better in the future.

 

Overall - I think NASA did a great job with the Nationals this year. My only real complaint - I would have liked to see the inspections for rules compliance in TT be a little more stringent. I know Greg was pretty darn busy all week, maybe next year some of us need to volunteer and help more.

 

- Mark

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Sorry Hippie....

 

Im telling you right now, you dont know me well enough to call me any names. I suggest you stop.

 

And now that I made a somewhat serious post, can I get in on insulting Meze? He doesn't have long hair but he does race a VW. So if the shoe fits wear it...hippie.

 

Group hug!

 

- Mark

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"Pat, I don’t know if you came to Nats to fill out your CV to take Pro racing and you thought that dominating would look better but I would have loved nothing better than racing you head to head (in somewhat more equal cars) and then being able to go the guys at Stasis or Real Time Racing and say hey you should take a look at this kid he’s the real deal."

 

Rob...does that mean I get the nod with the SWC teams? Here's the resume!!!!

 

http://teambre.com/team/tonybuffomante.html

 

In all seriousness...what's done is done. This group certainly won't fully agree on everything that happened. The only constructive discussion is the lessons learned from this.

 

I agree with the other earlier post about the GPS. At the track, we heard that the data acquisition was reviewed for 3 hours and that it indicated the Audi was making time in the corners...then Greg's post indicated that the GPS indicated that the car was likely overpowered. If that was the case, it's too bad the car wasn't detuned on Saturday so we could all have a good race after that.

 

Let's focus on improving/validating the GPS system so it can be easily used next year to get us a little closer to parity. It won't make everyone happy, but it will certainly move us in the right direction.

 

Tony Buffomante

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May I suggest that it would be in the best interest of growing TT that this thread end?

 

Look, Pat settled up. Whatever his motive or whatever the background, anyone on the outside looking in would say, "Hey, these TT guys are good, honest competitors; maybe I'll try it out." However, the tone this thread has taken gives the appearance that TT is a bunch of bickering, cut-throat, internet blow-hards. That's not good. You can go to the SCCA or BMWCR if you want that shit.

 

Let's leave it at this: Pat's car was found to be illegal, he was DQ'd as he should have been. The processed worked and the spirit of competition won in the end. For those of you that think you know all the background stuff/motives, just file it away.

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