2008 tire type/points discussion (not width)

[Markus]

So -

 

Has the Nitto NT01 shown enough evidence that it should be more than a +5 tire? I think so given the results at Nationals.

 

Where will the new Toyo R888's be on the points scale (if/when they ever come out)?

 

Do we need to revise the tire points classifications? Maybe something like:

+10 Slick style rcomps (Hoosiers, Hankook Z214's, Kumho V710's)

+7 RA1/R888, NT01, Bridgestone RE's, etc

+0 Kelly Chargers

 

Discuss.

 

- Mark

[Mac11]

I can understand saying a type of tire is too fast for a +5 category if you feel that way, but why would you collectivly change the +5 group to +7? That doesn't make any sense to me.

[kbrew8991]

wiping out the entire +5 category is going to screw over ALOT of people with one asterix cars who are pretty much limited to that type of tire in their base class if they need to change anything else and REALLY screw over 2 asterix cars outright, regardless of if you think tire A belongs but tire B doesn't, etc. Don't kill it. If any category needs to die its the +7 since they're all discontinued, but even then it would be nice to have on the books in case a new tire does fit into that category

 

the RA1 is just marginally marginally slower than the NT01, and the R888 is slated to be right between both from every account I've found. There isn't a need to change the tire compound points for those tires IMO.

 

AAAANNNNNDDDD I don't think we should change the NT01 points especially just because Bill Brees is a badass in a "cheater" car. The car classing is already getting taken care of, the tires don't need to be hit just because of him, it'll be a non-issue once he gets slapped with a few extra asterix No one else that was on NT01s (Spencer (?), Gardner, Eltermann, and some others using them) was out of line in performance....

 

and even then, I still don't think the MS Protege should get dinged much (one asterix) or even at all, didn't he go to the trouble of doing most of the free mods? (and even then Gardner was close, where do you draw the line..?) Seems like it would be punishing the first guy to really develop a car to me... but I don't write the rules either so...

[BillB]

wiping out the entire +5 category is going to screw over ALOT of people with one asterix cars who are pretty much limited to that type of tire in their base class if they need to change anything else and REALLY screw over 2 asterix cars outright, regardless of if you think tire A belongs but tire B doesn't, etc. Don't kill it. If any category needs to die its the +7 since they're all discontinued, but even then it would be nice to have on the books in case a new tire does fit into that category

 

the RA1 is just marginally marginally slower than the NT01, and the R888 is slated to be right between both from every account I've found. There isn't a need to change the tire compound points for those tires IMO.

 

AAAANNNNNDDDD I don't think we should change the NT01 points especially just because Bill Brees is a badass in a "cheater" car. The car classing is already getting taken care of, the tires don't need to be hit just because of him, it'll be a non-issue once he gets slapped with a few extra asterix No one else that was on NT01s (Spencer (?), Gardner, Eltermann, and some others using them) was out of line in performance....

 

and even then, I still don't think the MS Protege should get dinged much (one asterix) or even at all, didn't he go to the trouble of doing most of the free mods? (and even then Gardner was close, where do you draw the line..?) Seems like it would be punishing the first guy to really develop a car to me... but I don't write the rules either so...

 

Please don't use the term "cheater" car. I would prefer misclassed if you think it is, but I've already mapped out two other Mazdas that could match the Mazdaspeed Protege in TTE in case it takes a big hit (I'm sure there must be others as well). Yes, I did most of the free modifications and I was just over my minimum weight. My car was modified specifically for TT.

 

Because of my relationship with Nitto, I will refrain from this discussion.

[Markus]

I was being somewhat of a smartarse with dropping the whole +5 category, just wanted to start some conversation.

 

About the Nittos - lots of people have commented on how surprised they are by the tire's speed once shaved. Lots of people like them alot more than RA1's, not just a little. Seems to be a better tire than a Victoracer or the old Z211's. That's all I'm saying.

 

And - nowhere did I mention TTE or Brees when I started this, so please don't drag my particular class or friends into it. I'm just talking about tire performance in general and whether it needs to be reevaluated.

 

- Mark

[Shawn M.]

AAAANNNNNDDDD I don't think we should change the NT01 points especially just because Bill Brees is a badass in a "cheater" car. The car classing is already getting taken care of, the tires don't need to be hit just because of him, it'll be a non-issue once he gets slapped with a few extra asterix No one else that was on NT01s (Spencer (?), Gardner, Eltermann, and some others using them) was out of line in performance...

 

 

Harsh!

I think he had the only legal car there. I think the rest were TTF cars.

 

I think there were a few more NT01 tires out there than you know.

[thebionicman]

I ran the NT01s and I haven't found them to be much different than the RA-1s.

[mtm68]

How do you handle the different compunds of the same construction?

 

The ZZ-214 has mutplie (4 at last count) that make it go from toyo-eque to Hoosier-esque??

 

That seems like a major gap.

[Varkwso]

So -

 

Has the Nitto NT01 shown enough evidence that it should be more than a +5 tire? I think so given the results at Nationals.

 

Where will the new Toyo R888's be on the points scale (if/when they ever come out)?

 

Do we need to revise the tire points classifications? Maybe something like:

+10 Slick style rcomps (Hoosiers, Hankook Z214's, Kumho V710's)

+7 RA1/R888, NT01, Bridgestone RE's, etc

+0 Kelly Chargers

 

Discuss.

 

- Mark

 

Since NT01s are now available in sizes I can use I have set a car up for them - bumping points for this tire does hurt the * and ** cars. Bumping the tire up will change my class (again) and make me either change some "hard parts" or not do NASA TT since it pushes me into TTS and many. many more $$$.

[IS300]

So -

 

Has the Nitto NT01 shown enough evidence that it should be more than a +5 tire? I think so given the results at Nationals.

 

Where will the new Toyo R888's be on the points scale (if/when they ever come out)?

 

Do we need to revise the tire points classifications? Maybe something like:

+10 Slick style rcomps (Hoosiers, Hankook Z214's, Kumho V710's)

+7 RA1/R888, NT01, Bridgestone RE's, etc

+0 Kelly Chargers

 

Discuss.

 

- Mark

 

I was thinking something similar but eliminating the 7 point category and merging it with the 5 point category. I think this would keep all of the "treaded" R-compounds that are close and making it a larger jump to the "slick" type R-compounds.

Personally, I think that too much emphasis is put on the treadwear rating which does not mean diddily unless we are DOT engineers.

[Markus]

I was thinking something similar but eliminating the 7 point category and merging it with the 5 point category. I think this would keep all of the "treaded" R-compounds that are close and making it a larger jump to the "slick" type R-compounds.

Personally, I think that too much emphasis is put on the treadwear rating which does not mean diddily unless we are DOT engineers.

 

This might be a better way of approaching it. I agree - the DOT treadwear rating doesn't seem to be the best way to judge speed.

 

Also, I think the Z214's would probably have to stay a +10 tire regardless of compound, otherwise it might simply be too hard to monitor which compound someone is actually using. It is stamped on the tire sidewall, but it's pretty small and might be difficult to track.

 

- Mark

[kbrew8991]

Please don't use the term "cheater" car. I would prefer misclassed if you think it is, but I've already mapped out two other Mazdas that could match the Mazdaspeed Protege in TTE in case it takes a big hit (I'm sure there must be others as well). Yes, I did most of the free modifications and I was just over my minimum weight. My car was modified specifically for TT.

 

Because of my relationship with Nitto, I will refrain from this discussion.

 

my bad Bill, it was meant in quotes to be more of a thing, but I can see how that might be miscontstrued

 

You (and your car) are on the up & up legality wise I'm sure

 

I'll be watching the reclassification stuff closely, as I don't want to see people punished by car reclassifications soley on performance @ Nationals in the case of someone dedicading their car to this ruleset and doing all of the prepwork and behind the scenes stuff to maximize thier car within the rules while others just kinda run what they've got and whine after the fact

Edited September 26, 2007 by Guest

[kbrew8991]

I'm just talking about tire performance in general and whether it needs to be reevaluated.

- Mark

 

eh, it did seem a little implied, and I was going more in jest with that comment... but while we're here:

 

plenty of people ran NT01s, and only 1 of them blew thier class away. I don't think that warrants changing the tire's points

 

We can argue with data aq, seat of the pants, magazine reviews, manufaturer's claims, he-said-she-said, and all that till we're blue in the face, but it in the end the final results which are FACT say that its a +5 tire

 

(/flame suit on)

[cosm3os]

I think Ken makes an important point with regard to reclassification that really transcends all of the rule changes that are being discussed on this forum. That is, you can't change rules just because the people that took full advantage of the current rules did better than those that didn't. That's racing. We need to make sure that changes are limted to rules that are "wrong" when applied to the vast majority of the competition. For example a car that is clearly misclassed (base), or a tire that proved to be far better (or worse) than expected when they are in the hands of the average driver.

 

Just the .02 of the guy with the car built to the limit of the current rules

[loudes13]

z214 trumps all

[kbrew8991]

you're lucky Hoosier doesn't make a 195/XX/14 in R (or A)

[kbrew8991]

good to see some support on that issue Kyle

 

I think the outlier we're seeing with NT01s is from car prep level to the limit of the rules, not the tire itself

 

but we can beat this dead horse some more if you guys want

[Markus]

...the final results which are FACT say that its a +5 tire...

 

Uh...not trying to be difficult, but what exactly are those facts again?

 

I know it's difficult to seperate car prep from the equation. But note that both Brees and Gardner were driving heavy (2800-3000lbs) front wheel drive cars putting down lots of power - and did very well with the NT01's. This seems to indicate to me that the performance is better than an RA1, which would have gotten greasy/inconsistent.

 

Basically, if the Nitto stays a +5 tire next year, I think people would be foolish not to use it as it seems like a "bargain" for those points.

 

- Mark

[kbrew8991]

I'd look at the results from mylaps.com closer and see what lap they set their best time on, that should tell you if they're overworking the tires or not... but remember, you just have to get them to last for 1 lap.... if your driving is where it needs to be to put together that lap right off the bat, then kudos!

 

(I was looking at Hoosier As instead of Rs for that very reason until I was thwarted by size unavailability)

 

If they're really worth being a 10pt tire and on par with the new faster breed of 10pt stuff (BFG R1, new Hankook, etc) then I guess you'll see some guys from the other 4 letter club start using them since they seem to be fond of arms-races when it comes to tires. Haven't seen it yet though...

 

I'm sure Greg will take a look at it since he's the guy that writes the rules and I'm just some guy that runs the series locally and has as much say as any of the rest of you do.... but I think their performance is inline with their points and we might just have to agree to disagree there

[cosm3os]

...the final results which are FACT say that its a +5 tire...

 

Uh...not trying to be difficult, but what exactly are those facts again?

 

I know it's difficult to seperate car prep from the equation. But note that both Brees and Gardner were driving heavy (2800-3000lbs) front wheel drive cars putting down lots of power - and did very well with the NT01's. This seems to indicate to me that the performance is better than an RA1, which would have gotten greasy/inconsistent.

 

Basically, if the Nitto stays a +5 tire next year, I think people would be foolish not to use it as it seems like a "bargain" for those points.

 

- Mark

 

I'm not sure how a tire's propensity to become greasy/inconsistent factors into it's point value (I would suspect it does not--as I understand it, it's all about optimum grip). That being said I'd disagree that the RA gets greasy/inconsistent. To the contrary, it's widely known as a very consistent tire (any tire will get greasy if you over drive it). In fact, all season I went back and forth between the kook211s and the RAs because, although the kook was supposed to be faster, it has such a drop off after 3 laps (i.e. it's inconsistent), I ultimately stuck with the Toyo.

[IS300]

I think what Mark and I were contending is that there is a very minimal, if any, performance difference between a 5 point and a 7 point tire regardless of brand. While I think we are all brand loyal to an extent, I don't think the Nitto should be penalized because people chose to drive on it.

 

I have done more laps tire testing than I have racing and I will tell you that car set-up is HUGE. Each tire usually takes a slightly different set-up to optimize it.

 

I think I can say with "some" authority that a 5 point tire shaved will always be faster than an unshaven 7 point tire, so what to you do?

 

Again, I think Greg has done and continues to do a fantastic job as Director, I just think there are a few things that could be streamlined.

 

Take Care

[cosm3os]

I think what Mark and I were contending is that there is a very minimal, if any, performance difference between a 5 point and a 7 point tire regardless of brand.

 

Now THAT I whole-heartedly agree with. I think it would be easier to have a 10 class (hoo-hoos, etc), a 5 class (everything else thats an "R") and 0 class (street tires).

 

I think we would all agree that there is a significant difference between 5 (and what is currently 7) tires and 10 tires, thus justifying the points difference. Now, we would probably agree that there is a range of performance potential within the 5 class (which would now include 7 tires). That's fine. If I run the tire that everyone thinks is the "hot" tire (for example the Nitto in this discussion) and you don't, well who's fault is that? We would all have the opportunity to optimize our tire points, just like we all have the opportunity to optimize our car/mod points. May the "smartest" guy win.

 

Plus, combining 5 and 7 tires in a 5 class is one rules change that wouldn't screw anyone by bumping them up a class next year running the same set up.

[kbrew8991]

and to add to Chris Kline's though above:

 

not only should you pick a tire that fits well to your car and your setup (or setup the car around a certain tire) but you should also factor in your driving style, abilities, and preferences in a tire.

 

why? here's my example:

 

I drive much better with a progressive-at-the-limit tire under me (read: not Hoosier As or to some extent V710s) that lasts all session at 10/10ths without greasing out on me.

 

I don't do autocross at the national level because I'm not very good at nailing everything perfectly right out of the box, thus the need for a tire that stays 100% all session so its at the top of it's game when I finally get "in the zone" after a couple laps.

 

And the progressive tire works better on this car because its a twitchy enough s.o.b. as is and the progressive tire allows me the confidence to only fight one set of twitchyness that the car has instead of two (car and tire)

[phoenixR34]

If the Nitto is faster than a Toyo, just run the Nitto tire.. don't penalize it. Should we then start breaking down results from the Z214, R1, Hoosier and V710 to see which is faster and move them up and down in the ranks accordingly? There are tires in the +10 category that aren't equal as well.

 

Treadwear isn't the most ideal way to classify a tire, but how else are you going to quantify it? Based on 1 or 2 guys' lap times at Nationals?

 

If the NT01 is marginally faster than an RA1, all that should tell you is to choose the NT01 over the RA1. Otherwise we need to break down lap times from every tire with the same treadwear and reclass them appropriately..

[dwaleke]

There should be no penalty for brand of tire. I agree that treadwear doesn't tell the story.

 

It should be 0 points for street tires (non-R compound) and +7 for R compound tires. Leave it at that.

 

This should encourage Hoosier, Kumho, Nitto, Toyo, etc to make better tires.

 

Then let everyone choose which tires they want to run. If price is a factor than buy the fastest tire your wallet can afford. These are all R compound tires and all priced within $25-$75 dollars of each other (at least in my size - I didn't research all sizes and brands). If one is inferior than everyone will stop running it and the manufacturer will realize they need to step it up to stay competitive.

 

Unfortunately for us the slowest tire of this group is Nasa's friend Toyo. I'm affraid rules will be made (or kept) to protect their interest. With all of Toyo's support of Nasa that is probably fair to some extent.