944 Cup Nationals... what was the leading configuration...

[Packfill]

Can someone please list what the leading configuration was for the top 5-8 cup cars at the Nationals?

 

This would be cool...thanks... I think I heard a 2.7 clad car won... who was second, and third....

 

Any PCA cars? What was the tire choice?

 

Thanks!!

[crisbrady]

I was the 2nd place car.

 

I'm running a 2.7L with Hankooks. I'm a SP2 PCA car, used to run as an I Class car by putting in more balast and the interior carpet back in. Now as a SP2 car, the interior is gutted and since the car got trashed at Nationals in 2006, in the rebuild, we didn't add the headlights or AC back in - both no-no's for PCA I stock. In SP2 I run at the same configuration for PCA or Cup.

 

suspension: Koni sports with coil-overs, torsion bars in the rear (remember I was an I car)

stock brakes, stock glass, no metal in suspension points, Hankooks and Hoosiers

[Sterling Doc]

Can someone please list what the leading configuration was for the top 5-8 cup cars at the Nationals?

 

This would be cool...thanks... I think I heard a 2.7 clad car won... who was second, and third....

 

Any PCA cars? What was the tire choice?

 

Thanks!!

 

"Jersey" Joe H. Had an ex-factory Rothmans car. 2.5 L - allowed 149HP and "detuned" to about that level per Joe. About 2750lbs He ran 17" Hoosiers (245, I believe). A very well prepared car. Ran 1:41.9's if my memory is correct.

 

Next was Chris Brady is a heavy (2850) 2.7L car with essentially a spec suspension, and Hankooks. He made 145WHP & 145WTQ. Chris got a great start, and held off repeated challenges from Evan & I. Nothing special about the car, just smart, consistant driving, good traffic managment. He ran mid 1:42's

 

3rd was Evan, who also ran Hankooks. I don't know much about Evan's car. He did well early after some brown stain moments on the 1st lap. I got by him mid race, but he made a late race charge while Chris & I were battling for second. He made a great, balsy, outbraking move on the last lap to claim 3rd. Evan ran mid 1:42's as well.

 

My car was spec: 350lb/turbo antisway front; 30mm torsion/Weltmeister rear. 225 front 245 rear Hankooks. Open diff (4th gear wheelspin at that hilly track ). Spot on alignment and data aquistion evaluation by Doug at VFC helped me post the second fastest lap at 1:42.3. I need to hone my traffic managemnt & passing skills.

 

Bill Comat was 5th in a spec car on 225 Hoosiers, running a broken Tarret Bar Ran about 1:43 flat.

[944 cup]

Can someone please list what the leading configuration was for the top 5-8 cup cars at the Nationals?

 

Dont think I'm giving away and trade secrets here.

 

Top 10

 

Shocks- Bushings- Brakes- Wheels- Eng.- Tires- Config

Leda- Metal- Big- 17- 2.5- Hoos.- PCA

Koni- Rubber- Stock- 15- 2.7- Hank.- PCA

Leda/koni- Rubber- Stock- 15- 2.5- Hank.- PCA

Koni- Plastic- Stock- 15- 2.5- Hank.- PCA

Koni- Plastic- Stock- 15- 2.5- Hoos.- PCA

Leda- Metal- Big- 15-- 2.5- Hoos.- PCA

Leda- Metal- Stock- 15- 2.7- Hoos.- PCA

Koni- Plastic- Stock- 15- 2.5- Hoos.- PCA

Bilstein- Plastic- Stock- 17- 2.7- Hoos.- PCA

Koni- Rubber- Stock- 15- 2.5- Hoos.- PCA

 

All running with stock glass.

[Packfill]

Wow, very cool info... Thanks... Sorry I missed it... May just have to add a PCA/POC car at 2550 to the mix, next year.....

 

The SoCal POC cars are VERY well sorted out... Might be able to make things interesting?

 

It does concern me, however, that there is not a TOYO car in the top 10... any adjustments on the horizon?

[Sterling Doc]

ran the Toyo in spec - otherwise same setup, just 50lbs lighter. May fastest times were consistantly 1 to 1.5 seconds faster on the Hankook than Toyos - same track, same day.

 

Bill had one breakout lap on his Toyo that was a 142.7. Next best lap was a 1:43.6. He was not faster on his Hoosiers but had broken a swaybar link after the 142.7, and had trouble dialing in his car too the Hoosiers. Still, he ran a 143 flat on Hoosiers with a broken antiswaybar.

 

The delta between my Toyos and Hankooks was consistantly around 1.5 seconds over 4 days of racing. I also found the Hankooks a bit easier to drive - I could trail brake more and the wider rear track & tires were more stable, even though the car was still adjustable. My only gripe was that lockup is very difficult to sense vs. the Toyos. An LSD might also help here. In my opinion, you can run mid-pack, maybe even towards the front on a spec car, but you're leaving 1-2 seconds on the table to the top Cup cars with the Toyos. Now, a well devloped spec car running at 2650 lbs with Hankooks or Hoosiers has the potential to win. I think an LSD, some real antisway bars, and another year of experience would get me the .4 sec I need to run with the leading Cup car.

 

Again, this all is my opinion, but I've got 4 days of back-to back times, and Traqmate data to back it up.

[Packfill]

Now, a well devloped spec car running at 2650 lbs with Hankooks or Hoosiers has the potential to win. I think an LSD, some real antisway bars, and another year of experience would get me the .4 sec I need to run with the leading Cup car.

 

Is this configuration legal? I thought that spec cars had to run in the spec configuration... with Toyos? IF you take a Spec Car (POC/PCA) spec and add Hankooks, what else do you have to do... weight?

[Sterling Doc]

Now, a well devloped spec car running at 2650 lbs with Hankooks or Hoosiers has the potential to win. I think an LSD, some real antisway bars, and another year of experience would get me the .4 sec I need to run with the leading Cup car.

 

Is this configuration legal? I thought that spec cars had to run in the spec configuration... with Toyos? IF you take a Spec Car (POC/PCA) spec and add Hankooks, what else do you have to do... weight?

 

 

You can run the regular Cup rules, which includes free choice of tires at 2650lbs. Cars meeting all of the spec rules (including Toyos) can run at 2,550. IMO, tires are wirth quite a bit more than 100lbs, and it's hard to get a spec car down to 2550. I did get mine to 2573 through rather drastic measures. Ran 25lbs of ballast for spec, and 75 for Cup.

[944 cup]

May just have to add a PCA/POC car at 2550 to the mix, next year.....

 

It does concern me, however, that there is not a TOYO car in the top 10... any adjustments on the horizon?

 

No one raced on Toyos in the Cup race, hence none in the Top 10. So we dont have a true test of the Toyo at 2550 lbs. However, I think Eric analysis may be right on.

 

Bill had a Cup competitive time on the Toyo (in the Spec race), but conventional wisdom, would be to take the 100 lbs and race the Hankooks or Hoosiers. Now we have seen Spec cars on Toyos in regional Cup races on the podium in large competitive fields.

 

The POC car, as I understand, is currently legal in the Cup in NASA as a SP1 car. But, don't think anyone is running in NASA that way. Don't know why.

[Packfill]

Dave,

 

People don't understand it quite yet on the Left Coast, but they will. David Hirsch is running this weekend at BW, as our first ever Cup participant...

 

We would, however, like to know that an SP-1 car could run up front at the Nationals... Do you guys have a testing budget? I could leave for Mid-Ohio, today!!

[944 cup]

We would, however, like to know that an SP-1 car could run up front at the Nationals... Do you guys have a testing budget? I could leave for Mid-Ohio, today!!

 

 

Jim:

 

Good to hear of your plans to be at Nationals.

 

SP-1 car run "up front", sure, with the "right" driver, in the "right" car. Now please realize, there were about 15 SP-2 cars that couldnt run "upfront".

[944 Swede]

I would think the least involved way to make a spec car competitve in Cup would be as a "P Stock" at 2650 lbs minimum weight. My car already weighs 2645, I can add coilover all the way around, metal bushings, header, lexan, 9 inch wheels, spacers and hoosiers or hankooks and I'm sure it would be at least 2 seconds faster. I would vote to make this the new POC spec class thus we can once again cross over and be competitive in both organizations.

[Packfill]

Mikeal,

 

I agree that this would be competitive, but I am trying to stay away from the slippery slope that is tires... currently we have guys that are still running 3-4 events on a set of Toyos... Pretty economical...

 

Where I don't think that the actual car stuff adds much cost in the long run (i.e. chip, headers, lexan, coilovers, etc....)A season of Hoosiers, with no "Hoosier Bucks" can get pretty expensive... I would rather stay on Toyos...

 

If a SP-1 car, the current POC/PCA spec, at 2550 can be competitive, don't you agree that this would be the best option??

 

The questions is, can ANY car running Toyos compete with a Hoosier shod car...

 

I was hoping you would go to Nationals this year. If we send our best to compete, we would know the answers...

[Sterling Doc]

Mikeal,

 

I agree that this would be competitive, but I am trying to stay away from the slippery slope that is tires... currently we have guys that are still running 3-4 events on a set of Toyos... Pretty economical...

 

Where I don't think that the actual car stuff adds much cost in the long run (i.e. chip, headers, lexan, coilovers, etc....)A season of Hoosiers, with no "Hoosier Bucks" can get pretty expensive... I would rather stay on Toyos...

 

If a SP-1 car, the current POC/PCA spec, at 2550 can be competitive, don't you agree that this would be the best option??

 

The questions is, can ANY car running Toyos compete with a Hoosier shod car...

 

I was hoping you would go to Nationals this year. If we send our best to compete, we would know the answers...

 

Mikael, if memory serves me correct, you're only allowed wheels 1" wider than stock at 2,650 - means 8" wheels max.

 

Jim, I hear you on the Toyos vs. the Hoosiers, but the Hankooks are a good new option. Nearly as cheap as shaved Toyos, and Hankook bucks are pretty competitive with Toyo bucks., and durability seems pretty good (at least better than the Hoosiers). If you going to run Cup, maximize your car to the Spec rules, get some 8" wide wheels and 245 Hankooks, and if you want to be extravagant, get a chip. That would be a fairly cost effective way to be competitive in Cup, and still make for an easy reversion to Spec.

 

Racing at Nationals in Cup was a blast. spots 2-4 were nose to tail through the finish line after a 40" race. I'll be back, and with a more complete car (Gaurd LSD, better antisways, and maybe a chip and wider tires). It should be very fun again - try it out!

[944 Swede]

Jim,

 

I agree with your concern about tire budget and would suggest within POC, we would all agree on a spec tire, say the Hankook which offer generous "bucks", similar to TOYO and is proven over a second faster than the RA1's and almost as quick as the Hoosiers.

[944 cup]

..... I would vote to make this the new POC spec class thus we can once again cross over and be competitive in both organizations.

 

Guys:

 

Whatever you decide on the POC rule set, I believe we could accomodate for crossover purposes to the 944 Cup. Let me know what u decide. Be glad to work with you on bringing back the POC 944's.

 

As pointed out on the tire issue, the Hankook is a very good option compared to the Toyo and Hoosier if you want a Spec tire.

[John Milne]

Guys,

 

I am new to the forum. I am currently building a 944 Spec/SP-1 car. My reason for this choice of class is the TOYO tire. I really would like to run on an inexpensive long lasting tire.

 

After going through the recent rule change concerning headers and chips (which I disagreed with) I decided to go to the trouble and expense of changing my chip and replacing my headers so that I could run in a class with a spec tire. The way the rules are currently, the hot set-up for an SP-1 car to run in Cup is to add the 100# and step up to Hoosiers or Hankooks. It appears to me that if 944 Spec/SP-1 continues to run TOYOS, then a further weight adjustment needs to be made when the SP-1 cars run in Cup.

 

When a SP-1 car moves up to a faster tire are they still required to run 7X15 wheels?

John

[944-Spec#94]

It appears to me that if 944 Spec/SP-1 continues to run TOYOS, then a further weight adjustment needs to be made when the SP-1 cars run in Cup.

John

 

Well I don't know that going lower than 2550lbs is realistic. My 944 spec car has always been a "light car" and I am only about 155-160 lbs. I actually carry balast to make 2600lbs so I could make the 2550lbs limit. I am not sure I could get much lower. So I don't believe it is realistic to go lower than 2550lbs in order to balance the toyo shod 944 spec in 944 cup. I also don't think it is fair to increase the 944 cup weights to compensate for just a few SP1 cars.

 

I fully understand your desire to run on the Toyo's as I feel they are the best value for performance, longevity and price. 944 spec has no intention of changing from the RA-1. It seems pretty clear that a toyo shod 944 spec can run in the pack of 944 cup cars, but winning may be tough. I guess where I am headed is that if you want to run on Toyo's the best place is to run in SP1 (PCA) or 944 spec (NASA). Right now there are not many cars in Texas, but I have been talking with driver looking to get a complete 944 spec car and bring it to Texas.

 

My feeling is that for 944 challenge to thrive it needs to be 3 different classes with differnet speeds/price points

 

My idea is as follows

Lowest speed/lowest cost = 944 spec - speed base line = 0

You get spec racing (all same tires, motors, wheels, weights) at a low cost

 

Low cost with room for develoment = 944 cup. speed = 2 seconds faster

Here the advantage is choices. You chose the prep level, tires, motor, etc. Build cost and operating costs may be higher than spec and the speeds may a bit higher too. The benefit is if you feel restricted in a spec class this one gives you many more choices

 

More speed at resonable cost = 944 Super Cup. speed = 4 or more seconds faster

Want more speed, but like the 944 platform? Go with super cup. You get choices and bigger motors so lots more hp if that floats your boat, but still some restrictions to keep the spending in check and competition close.

 

I think this sepertion will fill the needs of different drivers and create a niche where each class can thrive without robbing from the others. An idea nationals would be 944 challenge run group with 25+ cars in each of 944 spec/944 cup/944 super cup. Hey Honda Challenge has 5 classes to meet the different needs of Honda racers so too can we tailor the classes to different needs/desires of Porsche racers.

[John Milne]

Joe

 

I agree that you are correct in a more perfect world. My problem is there are very few 944 Spec cars other than out West. I hope that changes. Locally there are several SP-2 944s belonging to guys that switched from PCA I Class. They found it easier since they had already gone pretty far developing their cars for PCA ( high tech suspension, special wheels and Hoosier tires etc.)

 

If I compete with them based on the data from NASA Nationals, I am not competitive. Obviously we are in different classes, but they are my competition since there are currently no other 944 Spec. cars near by.

 

Until such time as there are more 944 Spec cars I like the Idea of running under the 944 Cup rules so that I have someone to race against. I keep hearing about all the 944 Spec cars out there with more being built, but currently the class is primarily a Western US group. Apparently a couple of the other 944 Spec guys feel like I do that it is better to run with Cup rather than have no competition ( Nationals). I believe that I could get my car down below 2550# with lexan my weight is 160#. Obviously larger drivers have more of a problem.

 

I agree that 944 Spec cars running with better tires should not add weight as they seem to be real close to the Cup cars now and with a little development can probably win. I also agree that Cup cars should not add weight (I hate to add weight for any reason) since this is their class and we are attempting to fit in until 944 Spec has enough cars showing up to have a decent race.

 

Please take my comments in a positive manner. If I did not believe in the concept of 944 Spec I would not be building to those rules. I wish that the POC NASA and SCCA could race spec 944s under the same rules. With a common set of rules, we could have a real interesting class. I am sure Dave at 944 Cup would find a way to fit in what ever came out as a compromise so that we could race in that venue as well.

 

John

[Packfill]

How much do you think we would save with front and rear Lexan. Being a safety issue, if we JUST changed that rule... Could we save another 50#?

 

How about SP-1 at 2500#, are we competitive now?

 

PS: My late model car could make 2550# by just taking out the passenger seat and ballast... easy...

[John Milne]

I believe the weight savings with Lexan WS & hatch would be close to 50#. I have heard claims that you can save 50# on the rear hatch alone, but I weighed my hatch frame and glass an got 52#. Maybe we could save 30-35# from the hatch and about 15# from the WS.

 

You could also replace the quarter windows with lexan an save a couple of # and get a NACA duct for ventilation

 

My understanding is that a real savings can be achieved with light weight bumpers. I believe you can save 50# or more.

 

If the above estimates are close to correct there is 100# of savings easily available if required to equalize the cars.

 

The hatch and bumpers can be easily changed back and forth if you choose to run Cup one race and 944 Spec another race. If you are like me you have access to a spare hatch that you could install Lexan in. I have parted a couple of cars and never been able to find a buyer for the hatches. I still have two sitting around. With help a hatch can be changed in a few minutes.

 

I would like to see Lexan WSs legal in 944 Spec, but that change may not be possible for a couple years based on the commitment to have no rules changes for a few years. Maybe a change could be made as a safety issue.

 

I do not know how labor intensive changing from fiber glass bumpers to stock, but I am sure someone will tell us.

 

These changes would cost $, but probably about the cost of a set or two of Hoosiers which are shortly used up.

 

My car with driver could be real close to 2450# with a 100# weight reduction. I weigh 160# (175+- with gear), so we would have to shoot for closer to 2500# to make it fair for larger drivers.

 

John

[Sterling Doc]

Joe

 

I agree that you are correct in a more perfect world. My problem is there are very few 944 Spec cars other than out West. I hope that changes. Locally there are several SP-2 944s belonging to guys that switched from PCA I Class. They found it easier since they had already gone pretty far developing their cars for PCA ( high tech suspension, special wheels and Hoosier tires etc.)

 

If I compete with them based on the data from NASA Nationals, I am not competitive. Obviously we are in different classes, but they are my competition since there are currently no other 944 Spec. cars near by.

 

Until such time as there are more 944 Spec cars I like the Idea of running under the 944 Cup rules so that I have someone to race against. I keep hearing about all the 944 Spec cars out there with more being built, but currently the class is primarily a Western US group. Apparently a couple of the other 944 Spec guys feel like I do that it is better to run with Cup rather than have no competition ( Nationals). I believe that I could get my car down below 2550# with lexan my weight is 160#. Obviously larger drivers have more of a problem.

 

I agree that 944 Spec cars running with better tires should not add weight as they seem to be real close to the Cup cars now and with a little development can probably win. I also agree that Cup cars should not add weight (I hate to add weight for any reason) since this is their class and we are attempting to fit in until 944 Spec has enough cars showing up to have a decent race.

 

Please take my comments in a positive manner. If I did not believe in the concept of 944 Spec I would not be building to those rules. I wish that the POC NASA and SCCA could race spec 944s under the same rules. With a common set of rules, we could have a real interesting class. I am sure Dave at 944 Cup would find a way to fit in what ever came out as a compromise so that we could race in that venue as well.

 

John

 

John,

 

Being in the middle of starting a fledgling 944 Challenge program, and being in your very position last year (search some of my old posts - you'll find them familiar), I'll give you my opinion. It sounds like you've got two options:

 

1) Run the spec car in spec, cheerlead a bunch, and watch it grow next year (I'll have several spec cars running with me next year).

2) Run with the Cup cars, and put Hankooks on to make it more competitive, have a bit more fun right away.

 

While Spec cars on Toyos do give something up to Cup cars, when you learning the car & racing, it won;t be a big factor unless everyone in the race is a top-level, experienced driver.

 

In either case, you've only got a couple of cars at most to run against, so look to the long term - what & how do you want to be racing one year from now?

 

To make it clear, I ran in Spec, *and* in Cup this year at Nationals, as did Bill.

 

The more I've been invovled with this, the more the 3 classes make sense to me, even if there is some overlap. We can all play well together (and did at Nationals).

[944-Spec#94]

Joe

 

I agree that you are correct in a more perfect world. My problem is there are very few 944 Spec cars other than out West....

 

Please take my comments in a positive manner. If I did not believe in the concept of 944 Spec I would not be building to those rules. I wish that the POC NASA and SCCA could race spec 944s under the same rules. With a common set of rules, we could have a real interesting class. I am sure Dave at 944 Cup would find a way to fit in what ever came out as a compromise so that we could race in that venue as well.

 

John

 

I can understand the concern about few other cars out there. I started in 944 spec before 944 spec was a class. 944 spec was started here in Arizona in 2002. It origins go back far longer that that. Back the late 90's a local 914 racer and Porsche Mechanic started looking for a 914 replacement. He came to settle the 2.5L 944 non turbo car. He built one and developed it to run in the local SCCA catch all class. His idea of a fun race car was to make it ligher and basic. Stock motor and lightly worked over suspenison in stripped out chassis. He learned quicky that the car was an excellent racing platform with those sort of mods. However it never fit well in exisiting classes. He was also looking for a place where the size of the budget was not the primary factor in who won races.

 

He figured a Low Budget Porsche Spec series would be fun and great for this. He considered the 914, but age was catching up with the cars also leaving few unmolested cars. The 944 was pretty new territory and his recient experinece in the 944 showed it could be fine race car. He pitched this idea to local track organiztion and nobody wanted any part of it. I guess maybe it was the idea of Low Buck, Porsche & 944 were not what thes guys though people would build and race. So for a few years he just raced his car.

 

I saw his car in 1999 or so at PCA DE. Since I was a 944 guy (had and still have 944 Turbo S street car) and had an old 84 944 chassis I got as "project" I figured maybe I should build it like this car and have fun. So by October 2000 I had my car running. It ran with a stock motor on stock suspension, but used 225/50 R15 Kumho R tires and was stripped of everything I could pull out. The car was a blast and did not make me miss the hp of the 951. I took this car to Local PCA autocrosses and DE days and people started to take notice. I was competing for Top Time of day in autocross usally in the top 5-6 overall. Then early in 2002 the NASA Arizona franchise was picked up by a PCA memeber and 944 Turbo guy. He was looking to basicly build an organization. He and that Porsche mechanic who had been racing the 944 for years started talking and that is when the 944 spec concept began to gather legs. Since I had a car close to that I was approached about being a part of the class. I had intented to get competition license that spring so I jumped in. My car is officially the 2nd 944 spec car ever built. Soon a 3rd car followed.

 

In April 2002 I ran my first race in PCA in GT4S. I got clobbered, but still had fun. Shortly after I ran my first 944 spec exhibition race in May 2002. I qualfied on pole and got 2nd in a 3 car field. Arizona track days shut down over the summer so out next race was September. Well good promotion meant that we had 5 or 6 cars being built over that summer. We had 5 or 6 cars on grip for the first offical 944 spec race in septemer 2002. That was even after a conflict between the two class orginators lead to thier split and a rival 944 group forming.

 

Over the year since 2002 the 944 spec class has grown from Arizona only class with 3 cars to a National class in NASA and PCA. A regional only class in SCCA and strong class in POC that spawned a boxster version. In the spring of 2003 we branched out to Southern California. In 2004 we had some strong so-cal fields and a POC class. In 2005 I think is when PCA adopted the class and in 2006 we saw the starting of groups in Nor-cal and Denve area. We have by my count some 125 cars nationwide that are build to 944 spec rules in either NASA, SCCA, POC or PCA. We probably have even more.

 

The point I am trying to make is that the class is still very new. Growth is coming and it takes time to build a class. The key ingredient is to have some one willing to be the first and take the lead. Build a car and run it. Run the car encourage other. When you get two cars race hard and attract more. If you can show everyone else how much fun you are having it will grow. I congratulate both Bill and Eric for running at Nationals in 944 spec. Sadly the Ohio location is a LONG haul for us budget west coasters and is the major reason 944 spec attendace was 0 in 2006 and 2 in 2007. I expect 944 spec attendance to be even larger in 2008 as we pickup more drivers closer to Ohio and the prospect of fresh competition will drag some of west coast fence sitters to making the haul.

 

Rome was not built in a day, but did require a few brave souls to just start building someplace. Build it and they will come.

[944 cup]

When a SP-1 car moves up to a faster tire are they still required to run 7X15 wheels?

John

 

When a SP-1 cars moves up, the rules allow for wider a wheel and tire and any diameter.

[944 cup]

How much do you think we would save with front and rear Lexan. Being a safety issue, if we JUST changed that rule... Could we save another 50#?

 

How about SP-1 at 2500#, are we competitive now?

 

PS: My late model car could make 2550# by just taking out the passenger seat and ballast... easy...

 

I think 2500 lbs may be doable with the use of Lexan windshield, hatch and 1/4 windows. Until tested on the track, not sure if that gets you where u want to be competitively in the Cup. Could be.

 

I think a better way to go is Hankooks. No cost to modify your car to reduce weight and that would let u run up front as shown at Nationals.