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944 Cup Nationals... what was the leading configuration...


Packfill

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My feeling is that for 944 challenge to thrive it needs to be 3 different classes with differnet speeds/price points

 

I think this sepertion will fill the needs of different drivers and create a niche where each class can thrive without robbing from the others. An idea nationals would be 944 challenge run group with 25+ cars in each of 944 spec/944 cup/944 super cup. Hey Honda Challenge has 5 classes to meet the different needs of Honda racers so too can we tailor the classes to different needs/desires of Porsche racers.

 

I have never been one that thinks the Honda Challenge model maximizes competition. When you have too many classes too close together in performance, the field gets diluted and the competition less. Now I'm not saying here what is the best 944 format, just that more is not always better.

 

At Nationals, HC had 37 cars registered. That's only about 7 cars per class. I would not consider that a successful model to follow, especially when you consider the number of Honda cars out there that could be racing, especially when compared to the number of 944's to draw upon. HC cars should be tripling the 944 count. HC car counts here in the Mid Atlantic Chapter have been on a steady decline over the last 3 years. Former HC drivers I have talked to complained of the lack of competition and have strayed back to SCCA or other model cars.

 

We saw NASA do some consolidation of classes last year for Nationals for those classes with lite turn outs. Would not be surprised to see more consolidation. The most successful class: Spec Miata with one class. Their safe because there is strength in numbers.

 

Of course, the above is just my way of looking at the National perspective.

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As usual no easy answers. I really appreciate the great discussion and recommendations. I guess since I have never attended any race other than PCA I should run with you all first before I worry about all these details.

 

As for running with Hankooks, That may be the answer to running in Cup short term. If they wear reasonably well great, if not then ?

 

Naturally I just sold all my Fuchs to buy Cookies.

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I just read back through the posts on this thread and have a question? If I run SP 1 in NASA can I use the POC rules which allow headers and a chip?

 

What weight does a POC legal car run at in Cup if on TOYOS? If I run Hankooks/Hoosiers etc. what weight?

 

It seems that the POC prep might be the way to go for me.

 

I already have after-market headers which I am in the process of replacing with a stock header. It appears that the market is pretty tight on late model 944 headers as I am not having much luck locating them at a reasonable price.

 

I am also in process of replacing my early DME with a late model which requires a set of late injectors, a late AFM and possibly a late wiring harness. A chip would be easier and cheaper.

 

If I were to run PCA with this set-up would it then be classed as SP-2 or would I have no class in PCA?

 

John

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I just read back through the posts on this thread and have a question? If I run SP 1 in NASA can I use the POC rules which allow headers and a chip?

 

What weight does a POC legal car run at in Cup if on TOYOS? If I run Hankooks/Hoosiers etc. what weight?

 

It seems that the POC prep might be the way to go for me.

 

I already have after-market headers which I am in the process of replacing with a stock header. It appears that the market is pretty tight on late model 944 headers as I am not having much luck locating them at a reasonable price.

 

I am also in process of replacing my early DME with a late model which requires a set of late injectors, a late AFM and possibly a late wiring harness. A chip would be easier and cheaper.

 

If I were to run PCA with this set-up would it then be classed as SP-2 or would I have no class in PCA?

 

John

 

John,

 

My understanding is that the PCA & POC rules are lagging because they don't do midyear changes, but will follow suit next year. The Cup rules allow POC/PCA prep for this year to be inclusive, but will also change to the NASA rules next. I wouldn't prep to rules that are going away in a few months. The Hankooks do seem to be wearing pretty well. You can run 225's on the phonies, just not 245's w/o a pretty big squeeze. Weights are 2550 with spec prep, wether NASA or POC, 2650 otherwise.

 

John, also realize that the series have slightly different racing rules, Spec is pure NASA, Cup somewhat similar to Vintage rules, and includes a 13/13 rule. There are pro's and cons to both, but they are different, and it affects how you race. Know what you're getting into.

 

DD, your comments are well taken. The beauty and success of Cup is it's inclusiveness (including spec cars). 3 classes is plenty, but appropriate here IMO at this time. Even spec Miatas now have the MX-5 Cup (though the cars overlap less)

 

Joe, I've never heard the whole story before - pretty cool! Thanks for retelling it.

 

Eric

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I just read back through the posts on this thread and have a question? If I run SP 1 in NASA can I use the POC rules which allow headers and a chip?

 

What weight does a POC legal car run at in Cup if on TOYOS? If I run Hankooks/Hoosiers etc. what weight?

 

If I were to run PCA with this set-up would it then be classed as SP-2 or would I have no class in PCA?

 

John

 

With the header and chip, you can run SP-1 and SP-2 for the balance of this year. You should also be able to run SP-2 in 2008 with the header and chip, as PCA has followed the Cup lead up to this point. I say should as neither the 944 Cup, nor NASA, controls PCA rule making.

 

 

My understanding is that the PCA & POC rules are lagging because they don't do midyear changes, but will follow suit next year. The Cup rules allow POC/PCA prep for this year to be inclusive, but will also change to the NASA rules next. I wouldn't prep to rules that are going away in a few months.

 

POC racers please chime in, but I didnt understand POC rules were necessarily headed towards banning the header and chip in 2008. In turn, 944 Cup is not committed to banning the header and chip for all Spec cars either. Dont see the logic in excluding 944's from racing in the Cup class as SP-1 cars because of these 2 items.

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In the current PCA rules proposals the proposal is for SP 1, SP2 & SP3 to follow the rules of the originating organization. Based on this info it would seem that if Cup adds a POC prep category, the PCA will follow and that car would run in PCA SP 2.

 

Does NASA follow the procedure of adopting Cup rules? If they do then a POC prep car could also run as a Cup car in the 944 Challenge.

 

There are differing opinions on the HP to be gained with a header and chip. I am sure there is a benefit. Hopefully it will be enough to make the cars competitive on Toyos

 

I am going to follow Dave's advice and keep my headers for the time being ( they are still legal in PCA until the end of the year) I could change the DME etc. or chip the car, but I will wait to see how the rules get finalized.

 

John

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POC's rules will not change for 2008. Headers, chips and Bils are still allowed.

 

I stand corrected, then, I assumed (in error) the POC would folow suit with the originating organization (and the PCA) as well, and not further fragment 944 racing. I *do* think 4 levels of 944 prep is too many, and again, divides the fields. There were some posts earlier about the difference between Cup Spec and NASA Spec only being an issue for this year, and "going away" next year. This made sense to me in a year of flux. I understand it is Cup's philosophy to be inclusive, and having POC hold out, puts Cup (DD) in a difficult situation not to allow POC cars. Still, it's dissapointing we may have continuing division here. Maybe NASA spec could run 2,500, and POC spec would run 2550 . I hope this does not reopen the painful rules change debate, as this is a done issue, and at this point is not constructive. My up and coming racers in the Midwest are certainly happy with the current ruleset.

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I am also in process of replacing my early DME with a late model which requires a set of late injectors, a late AFM and possibly a late wiring harness.

John

 

Why are you doing that? If you have a stock early AFM/DME they work just fine. In fact our last race was won by a driver on a borrowed early AFM/DME. In the past people did this to make it easier to put a chip in the car as the late DME's have socketed chips and the early DME they are soldered in.

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In the current PCA rules proposals the proposal is for SP 1, SP2 & SP3 to follow the rules of the originating organization. Based on this info it would seem that if Cup adds a POC prep category, the PCA will follow and that car would run in PCA SP 2.

 

Does NASA follow the procedure of adopting Cup rules? If they do then a POC prep car could also run as a Cup car in the 944 Challenge.

 

 

NASA and PCA have adopted the 944 Cup rules in total up to this point. They have both commissioned me to write these rules with no interference. I expect that to continue for 2008. Once again, I have learned to proceed with caution in dealing with large sanctioning bodies. Changes can happen when you least expect them. I can only speak with absolute certainty on the 944 Cup rules.

 

For 2008, I see the 944 Cup making provisions to include the POC rules for the 944 provided their is a real interest for POC 944 racers to race in the 944 Cup. At this point, I see no measurable performance differences between the POC 944 and the NASA 944 spec cars that would not allow us to use the same base weights and HP limits for these cars.

 

Hope this helps.

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For 2008, I see the 944 Cup making provisions to include the POC rules for the 944 provided their is a real interest for POC 944 racers to race in the 944 Cup. At this point, I see no measurable performance differences between the POC 944 and the NASA 944 spec cars that would not allow us to use the same base weights and HP limits for these cars.

 

DD, I disagree with the equal weight for 944 Spec'd POC(chips, header and bilsteins) vs NASA and PCA(2008). The difference as I see it might be 5 to 7 Hp, plus better shocks allowing a wider range of spring choices.

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There is also a rumor that PCA will not follow the rule changes done by NASA. Don't flame me as I am not a PCA member I just know what I hear from my friends so it may be that NASA would be the one changing things, and not POC/PCA making diffences. NASA did what they did with the best of intentions but POC went the road to keep the rules the same as that is what the drivers wanted. POC cars fit right in the current Cup rules and can change tires if they desire.

Just get the cars out there in whatever they fit in. You have some momentum going and it sounds infectious. Have fun.

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DD, I disagree with the equal weight for 944 Spec'd POC(chips, header and bilsteins) vs NASA and PCA(2008). The difference as I see it might be 5 to 7 Hp, plus better shocks allowing a wider range of spring choices.

 

Hey Bill:

 

Good to see your part of this. If these cars have the same HP limit, dont see it matters much how they get there, e.g. with or without aftermarket headers. POC cars could not have any more power then the NASA spec cars.

 

On the shocks, just dont see Bils and Konis making that much difference with these cars. Know this is contrary to the Spec way of thinking, but that's not what we have seen in Cup racing, as shown again at Nationals. We don't differentiate with base weight and type of shock or spring rates.

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If the POC cars come into Cup it would seem that the rules would have to consider that an angine with race headers, chip and 11:1 compression would make more HP than those without these items. I do not know how you detune an engine if it makes too much horsepower, but is otherwise legal. I guess you could remove the chip, headers etc. but that defeats the purpose of including the POC cars. I think you have to handicap with weight if the POC cars are shown to have a HP advantage.

 

If the Weights are adjusted, my preference would be to keep the POC cars at 2550# or less to hopefully make them competitive on Toyos with the current Cup cars. The 944 Spec cars could be allowed a further reduction if necessary to 2500# or even 2450#. I realize that it would be difficult to get to these very low weights for some large drivers. There is always the option for 944 Spec of running a tire of your choice at 2650#.

 

As I read the rules of 944 Spec, 44 Cup and POC there is no mention of limits on HP. If we are going to use HP to classify the cars, then those limits need to be in the rules. What are the current dyno upper limits that are currently being used.

 

Please note that in the current rules proposals for PCA they specifically state that they will follow the rules of the originating body for SP 1, SP 2 & SP 3.

 

John

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...I assumed (in error) the POC would folow suit with the originating organization (and the PCA) as well, and not further fragment 944 racing.

 

There is something both disturbing and funny about this statement. Remember, POC has not changed ANY rules from the original rule set... and we still have most the participation and certainly the best racing in Southern California... I dont think we did ANYTHING to "fragment 944 racing." The POC is dedicated to budget, reliable, fast 944s. Spec does not mean stock, and we are not trying to see who can run the most 20 year old parts. Especially on things like headers, that we know just wear out... the POC takes a more pragmatic approach... we looked carefully at the field and saw NO ONE with chip, headers, or Bilsteins dominating the field... we didnt give in to hearsay... We had/have a set of rules that everyone is happy with... I can honestly say in almost 3 years of racing 944s, I have never heard ANYONE say they got beat because someone else has a chip, or headers... (5-7HP?...ridiculous) Man, if you could simply spend $700 for a chip and Headers and get 7HP? why wouldn't everyone want that? That is a great value!

 

POC will NOT ban headers or chips in 2008... The only rule change that is being considered is a weight reduction to further align ourselves with CUP... As far as the difference in HP? Again, not to drag out the old laundry, but this stuff is only speculation... I completely agree with DD that there is very little difference.

 

One of the front running POC 944s, rebuilt his motor and switched to stock chip and headers. He than went to the dyno and worked on getting his car properly tuned with exhaust, AFM, etc... He GAINED HP, not lost. Another just went to stock headers, after he punctured a whole in his Stahl... no difference there either.. Last month, I was also on the dyno due to some sputtering... we hooked up a stock 88 DME... gained one HP over my "super custom whammy chip" I am now running no chip...

 

POC will begin to align itself with CUP. We like the CUP ideals, and DD seems like a very fair, and reasonable director.

 

Again, for 2008, the only changes currently even being considered, is a small change in weight to further align ourselves with the CUP rules.

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DD, this really puts you in the thick of things!

 

A point to consider: My HP limit at nats was 146. *If* this applies to spec as well, only the POC cars with a header and a chip will get there, or close. Bill and I both had freshly rebuilt, high compression motors that make above average HP for a spec car. We made 139 & 137 HP respectively. Wether or not the chips and header make a difference depends on what the HP limit is.

 

This is obvoiusly you're call, and I think you've done an excellent job playing Soloman with equalizing cars so far. Wether a tighter HP limit for spec cars, or a weight adjustment is wise, or if it's going to be an issue at all remains to be seen!

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We made 139 & 137 HP respectively. Wether or not the chips and header make a difference depends on what the HP limit is.

 

Okay...HERE IS THE PROOF... 139, would make you one of the fastest POC cars in existence. I know of NO car making more than 140... NONE THe average POC car makes 135 ish...

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DD, I agree that you have been extremely fair in your rules. I do think that Eric's 137 Hp and my 139 Hp vs the Cup car maximum of 146 is a measurable difference! It makes sense that Eric and I wouldn't have been any slower with 146 Hp....does it? My engine is maxed out under the 944 Sped rules. I don't see how to get the extra Hp between race groups as we did at Nationals. Wheels, tires, spacers and ballast are doable.

 

The point that is important to make is that the possibility of one car to race in two classes competitvely is at least, an enviable goal. Some may choose to make mods between race event, but the ability of a 944 Spec car to race in two classes at one event increases(doubles) the fun for a reasonable cost increase.

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Bill,

 

The thing that makes the 944 such a good spec car is the AFM... Yo have reached the terminal HP for your car.... I don't care what you do... add a chip, headers, exhaust, etc... If you keep the stock AFM, you really cant go much higher... I have seen exhaustive testing by professional shops on this...

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If the POC cars come into Cup it would seem that the rules would have to consider that an angine with race headers, chip and 11:1 compression would make more HP than those without these items. I do not know how you detune an engine if it makes too much horsepower, but is otherwise legal. I guess you could remove the chip, headers etc. but that defeats the purpose of including the POC cars. I think you have to handicap with weight if the POC cars are shown to have a HP advantage.

 

As I read the rules of 944 Spec, 44 Cup and POC there is no mention of limits on HP. If we are going to use HP to classify the cars, then those limits need to be in the rules. What are the current dyno upper limits that are currently being used.

 

The 944 Cup rules (http://www.44cup.com/info.shtml) and Section 7 of the 944 Challenge Rules make reference to HP limits. The limit for the Spec cars is 146 in 2007, though not specifically listed in the rules. There is no allowed margin for fluctuations in the dyno results, so competitors need to take that into account when preparing their cars.

 

Would POC cars have a problem with keeping under the HP limit? I didnt think so from drivers I have spoken to. 944 Spec cars that I have seen have been reasonably close and have shown to be competitive with Cup cars, some of which have headers and chips.

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Bill,

 

The thing that makes the 944 such a good spec car is the AFM... Yo have reached the terminal HP for your car.... I don't care what you do... add a chip, headers, exhaust, etc... If you keep the stock AFM, you really cant go much higher... I have seen exhaustive testing by professional shops on this...

Jim, maybe you have given me the answer to getting two different Hp ratings at one race weekend. How difficult as in how long would it take to replace the AFM between race groups?
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I want to make a couple points so they are clear

 

1. 944 spec and Dyno's

944 spec rules be them NASA, POC, PCA SP1 or Az Regional SCCA do not have any hp limit be them published or unpublished. No 944 spec car running in any of the above classes can or will be disqualfied for wheel hp levels. I will say that we do have a database of cars so we know where most cars come to hp wise, but our rules do not allow for hp to determine legality of engines.

 

2. 944 spec cars running in 944 cup class

Dave controls the rules for 944 cup and he may if he chooses to assign a hp limit to any car running in the cup class and that includes cars prepped to "spec" rules from any organiztion. For cup he may also choose assign different weights or have additional allowances/restrictions beyond the native "spec" rules to ensure he has the desired equality in 944 cup.

 

Any spec car running in cup is subject to the cup rules that Dave sets up. The native spec rules may help define what Dave requires for the car to run in cup, but he has the ultimate say.

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Jim, maybe you have given me the answer to getting two different Hp ratings at one race weekend. How difficult as in how long would it take to replace the AFM between race groups?

 

Less than 5 minutes... but replace it with what? Are MAFs legal in cup? Whereas I TRULY believe there is little one can do to get HP out of a 944 running the stock AFM, a MAF would make it EASY to get HP gains...

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