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[vid] open track education


everbruin

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enjoyed your lap posted in Norcal. I would like to hear some instructors comment on this. This is HPDE 3 second day open passing? to me the pass looked clean with a good obvious set-up. The BMW was way late on his turn in (i'm sure seeing the car inside and letting him thru) what was happening before this? what was discussed in the download session? i'm all ears

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What are were the passing rules for this? Was the BMW driver aware of the other guy trying for the pass? It didn't look like he (BMW) was caught by surprise or anything, and the cars had an ok amount of room between them at all times.

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I agree that the video doesnt show anything that I would be concerned with. We really need to back up a bit and see the rest of the lap prior.

 

What are the passing rules? Anywhere with a point? If the point was given prior to the braking zone and the front car didnt slow early, then perhaps the pass was made later than the overtaking car wished. That being said I think that both drivers did a good job keeping it clean.

 

Drivers in group 3 need to be a little more flexible and have a much higher level of situational awareness then they did in group 2.

 

That being said I have noticed that there are differences in group3 from one region to another.

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hpde 3 rules at the time: no divebombing (overlap is needed before braking zone), otherwise open passing w/o point by was allowed.

 

i edited the caption:

looks like a divebomb at infineon T4 (assuming bmw didn't point by), inside car was still behind at the turn in cone, bmw was aware and decided to give up right to line

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Unfortunately, I can't watch the vid, but...

 

Seems to me some clarification is needed on the passing rules. Does "pass anywhere with a point-by" mean the following car must stay behind until a point is recieved? Or does it mean the following car can pull along side and wait for the point?

 

In our region, I interpret the rule to mean the former. But I'd love to be able to setup passes by pulling along side. Problem is, it makes it harder to see a point when you're along side.

 

Maybe it's just my interpretation, but if my front breaks the plane of the lead car's rear, I've started a pass.

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  • 2 months later...
Drivers in group 3 need to be a little more flexible and have a much higher level of situational awareness then they did in group 2.

 

That being said I have noticed that there are differences in group3 from one region to another.

 

they just changed the rules in hpde3 in florida to be the same as 1 and 2. quite confusing when you enter another division to run with them, maybe some kind of standardization would be good?

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they changed it b/c of someone was "divebombing". it use to be open passing on the straights. makes the move to HPDE4 difficult since you can not get use to having someone next to you in the corners by pointing by first.

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  • 2 weeks later...

The solution to dive-bombing problems with open passing is simple: have passing anywhere, but require a point. That's been working great in NASA-MA and with MazdaDrivers. Since no one's racing, I don't understand why some groups feel a need to NOT require a point in an HPDE group.

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  • 2 weeks later...

As a fellow hpd3er and familiarity with that track, I agree with the dive bomb. Turn-in there is much earlier than what always appears and by observing the bimmers track out you can tell his turn in was adjusted very late due to the passing cars unexpected position. Every time I'm at Sears, T4 always ends up high on my list as turns to understand better. But regardless, these drivers handled the situation very well and I think this is part of the learning experience with group 3, to an extent. Personally, the main reason for me moving up to group 3 after 2years in group 2 was to be exposed to situations like these. My group3 lap times are probably slower than my group2 lap times, but I'm having so much more fun and learning so much more.

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I don't think this pass was too late, but the real issue is Mazda is too far to the inside, and is lucky the BMW left the door open that long. If the BMW was not aware of the Mazda being behind him, he's set up in the BMW's blind spot and could end up being turned in on due to the BMW not seeing him way over to the right.

 

Also, this type of pass gives about as poor a position in terms of exit speed for both the Mazda and the BMW. It's no wonder the car with the camera caught both on exit.

 

IMO, the best way to make that pass in HPDE would have had the Mazda poke out beside the BMW before the brakes to telegraph his intentions to the BMW. BMW has the option to brake a little early and let the Mazda by, or to get out-braked to turn in. Once the Mazda is on the inside of the BMW, he owns the corner and dictates when turn in will be. Either way, the thought should be on keeping as much exit speed as possible to keep from being over taken.

 

I would not try a late braking move in any HPDE group unless I knew the other driver, it can even be a little sketchy in a race group.

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Also, this type of pass gives about as poor a position in terms of exit speed for both the Mazda and the BMW. It's no wonder the car with the camera caught both on exit.

 

Tom, I agree with you, but in an HPDE situation sometimes you have to sacrifice exit speed just to get the pass. I've had that many times, and then had someone ride my ass down a straight. Once I'm through that next corner though, they just disappear in my mirror. That's one of the biggest differences between HPDE and racing to me, and one of the ways to make the limited passing rules work for you with a safe compromise.

 

Once the Mazda is on the inside of the BMW, he owns the corner and dictates when turn in will be. Either way, the thought should be on keeping as much exit speed as possible to keep from being over taken.

 

Again, this is an HPDE situation, not a race. If passing is limited to certain zones and requires a point, the driver in front doesn't need to worry about being overtaken. There might be a better/faster way to pass, but we're not allowed to go there, and our passing placement on track is determined almost entirely by how the guy in front chooses.

 

 

Kind of directed at whatever group ran this, the problem lies in the rules. "Open passing on the straight" but with the vague exception "no divebombing" isn't specifically defined. One guy might be perfectly comfortable with what someone else considers a divebomb. Similarly, one person's divebomb might be an excessively early pass by most standards (that is, to the person being passed). To better avoid future situations like this, a clearer definition of the passing rules would be useful.

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to clarify, the overtaking car is a VW not mazda.

hpde3 divebomb rule at the time:

overlap* is needed BEFORE braking zone

* front driver must be able to see overtaker thru his passenger window

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  • 2 weeks later...

 

Tom, I agree with you, but in an HPDE situation sometimes you have to sacrifice exit speed just to get the pass. I've had that many times, and then had someone ride my ass down a straight.

 

I agree, and that will happen any time a not so fast car (ex: Miata) gets by a fast car (ex: Corvette), and then the outcome really depends on if the guy in the fast car recognizes that the "slower" car is being driven well and gives the slow car a corner or two to get away, or just passes the "slower" car back on the next long straight. This happens in races too, and having been the "slower" car many times due to racing an SE-R and a CRX, I can say the better way is usually for the slower car to "park" the faster car at an apex and use exit speed to out run the faster car down the straight, sort of how the VW (what I thought was a Mazda, sorry!) parks the BMW in 4 in the video. Heck the VW had come off line so early he gave up decent exit speed out of 3 he could have used to pass the BMW on the straight.

 

A big thing I try to teach in HPDE is getting a clean run on someone, as it's not a great idea to catch someone at an apex. Catch them on exit and out run them down the front straight, even if they are in a faster car, you can usually position yourself to hold them off through the next turn and be rid of them at that exit.

 

 

That's one of the biggest differences between HPDE and racing to me, and one of the ways to make the limited passing rules work for you with a safe compromise.

 

I agree, but many, many times I have been instructing and had the above scenario play out in both ways (been the the passing car and the car being passed) and sometimes it's the only way a "slower" car can get by a "faster" car, that is not to "divebomb" but to present itself and hope the "faster" car gives way (brakes early and lets the slower car by). Usually the faster car needs a reminder that "If that car closes up on you again on exit, point him by and let off the gas a little so they can pass". And in the reverse the slower car needs to be told to "get as close as you can to him on exit and present yourself for the pass", which may mean hanging back and getting a run through the turn rather than riding their bumper through the turn only to be left in the dust on exit.

 

 

Again, this is an HPDE situation, not a race. If passing is limited to certain zones and requires a point, the driver in front doesn't need to worry about being overtaken.

 

 

 

Not trying to nit pick, but as taught at all the NASA events I have been instructed with for the last 8 years, and as outlined in the rules: Passing is allowed in certain zones outlined at the event and what is outlined during the drivers meeting, but *does not* require a point by. It is the passing cars responsibility to make a clean and safe pass. But you are correct, the driver in front should not be concerned too much with who is behind them *if* everyone knows how to pass.

 

Occasionally in group 1 they will require a point by, but I haven't seen that in a couple years. This was group 3, and has even more liberal passing zones that group 1 usually.

 

This is sort of getting away from my main point, of how the car over took the BMW by going that far to the inside.

 

 

There might be a better/faster way to pass, but we're not allowed to go there, and our passing placement on track is determined almost entirely by how the guy in front chooses.

 

 

Which put me back onto where the BMW was on the brakes (far left) and where the VW was (far track right and out of the line of sight of the BMW).

 

 

Kind of directed at whatever group ran this, the problem lies in the rules. "Open passing on the straight" but with the vague exception "no divebombing" isn't specifically defined. One guy might be perfectly comfortable with what someone else considers a divebomb. Similarly, one person's divebomb might be an excessively early pass by most standards (that is, to the person being passed). To better avoid future situations like this, a clearer definition of the passing rules would be useful.

 

 

 

everbruin outlined what the rule was that day. I don't agree that the VW wasn't along side the BMW at the turn in cone, but the rule is about the position at the start of the *braking zone*. Due to the resolution of the video, I can't see when either car went on the brakes via their brake lights. It appears that the BMW brakes at the end of the FIA curbing on the left side of the track, and the VW a bit later, but I don't see it being hail Mary as he was still able to hold the line on exit and not cross over on exit - evident by the amount of room he has on exit.

 

Still, the real issue I have is the VW never "tracked out" behind the BMW, he was to the right the whole straight, and it honestly surprised me the BMW saw the VW over there and left the door open. A heads up play to the BMW driver and the VW could have carried more exit speed out of turn 3 and been along side the BMW before the braking zone if he had a better line there. I think the BMW was a bit surprised the VW did this pass, as evidenced by how much the BMW checked up after the pass. It's evident to me the VW had made up his mind he was going to pass the BMW there no matter what, which is not a good thing.

 

everbruin, is that you in the BMW? What was said in the download meeting regarding this pass?

 

If this were group 1, I'd be more concerned with how late the pass was on the BMW, but group 3 guys (and gals!) need to understand how to set up a pass more like a race situation (group 4 is next, and has open passing). You NEVER want to surprise the car you are passing in a way that makes them think "Holy $#!7, when'd they get there!?!?!", racing or not. You will find yourself turned in on if you do that. Sure, a super late brake move can rule the day, but if the car you are passing never saw you, you did something wrong. That's what I am trying to get through here.

 

In my opinion, I think the VW 's pass wasn't an ideal due to his track position, not the lateness of the pass. The BMW responded well to how far off line the VW was (I have seen racers make this kind of pass, too and it usually ends up with the car being passed car taking back the position on the next straight).

 

A very good video to bring up for a discussion with racers or HPDEers alike!

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I'm merely the guy in the videotaping car. I don't know the drivers in the 2 white cars. This wasn't discussed in the download, and I didn't want to bring it up w/o having reviewed my video.

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