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2008 Rules: ABS Modules


Jeff F

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Proposal/Rule clarification: Allow "Ford Racing" versions of ABS modules, such as used in the FR500C (Grand-Am Cup). These modules are not user programmable, and will allow cars such as the FR500C to be legal in AIX/AI as delivered.

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Really? So are ABS systems "OPEN" now, or is that system floating in under the radar as an "unmodified OEM system"?

 

Wow... the system in that FR500C is really an amazing set-up, so "fully-loaded" cars should plan on purchasing that $2000-ish ABS module ASAP.

 

Also, there are numerous other reasons the FR500C is not legal as delivered according to the current rules, not just this ABS rule. While I would support the engine block rule change you list elsewhere, this one is a very concrete performance advantage.

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...so "fully-loaded" cars should plan on purchasing that $2000-ish ABS module ASAP.
Scott, where are you getting your pricing from? The complete module is sold as a replacement part to Grand Am teams for under $500.

 

Greg-- just because "the man" told you it's legal doesn't make it clear to everyone, including those enforcing the rules, that it is legal. Just looking for clarification.

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Didn't GrandAm mandate a change in the FR500 ABS module mid season last year? I'm not so sure writing a rule to another series is such a good idea...

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I personally would like to see ABS banned.

 

I would also agree. Currently some of the rules favor the newer body styles. (track width etc) Allowing this would be another rule favoring newer body styles.(Ford) It would be fairly difficult to put an ABS module in a fox body car though I realize it is doable. I'd also like to see rules that allow more input from the driver than the parts on the car not rule changes that take lessen driver input. The theory in AI is to keep the cars at a level playing field at a minimal cost and put the driver in the driver's seat. I don't see how ABS puts the driver as the limiting factor and how it can positively affect American Iron.

 

What kind of ABS is available for the GM cars and how does it compare to the new(ish) module from Ford out of curiosity?

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It would be fairly difficult to put an ABS module in a fox body car though I realize it is doable.

 

Not taking a stand either way (my Cobra came with it, but I haven't bothered to wire up the sensors yet ), but SN95 ABS into a Fox is quite simple and a pretty common practice. Well documented on numerous sites on the web. Plenty of SN95 (and some Fox) and 4th-gen F-body GM's already running ABS in AI - but they aren't necessarily the champions. So, is it a performance advantage in the dry? Folks who've always had it think so, but those who've learned to drive without it don't seem to get smoked under braking by those who have it. I can see it as something of a safety advantage, since it reduces the chance of locking the tires under unexpectedly severe traction limitations and maybe sliding into someone/something. I mainly kept it on my car (with a switch on the dash) to help avoid flatspotting tires in the wet, and because re-plumbing the brake lines would have been one more thing to do before my debut - same reason I didn't wire the sensors up. I don't mind if a stock ABS system helps those "still learning" how to brake, and I personally don't believe it's any significant performance advantage for the top drivers. If it is banned (haven't heard any justification supported by data), I'll just remove the power wire feeding the circuit breaker under the hood.

 

As for FR500C's, I say let 'em battle with the Viper Competition Coupes in SU. Or at least run in the "spend it if ya got it" AIX class.

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I personally would like to see ABS banned.

 

I also agree.

I'm strongly in favor of driver ability. Also, fewer electronic gadgets leaves less places to hide something.

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*IF* the current ABS rules have to change, I'd like to see the blanket banning of ABS. Otherwise I like the current rules for the braking system. The current rules seem to cut down the initial cost of preparation.

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I personally would like to see ABS banned.

 

I also agree.

I'm strongly in favor of driver ability. Also, fewer electronic gadgets leaves less places to hide something.

 

Ditto.

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The intent of this proposal wasn't about the legality of ABS; if you wish to make a proposal, do so in a new post.

 

I'm just looking to clarify the existing rule as it applies to "factory" ABS.

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Jeff-

 

I'm sorry if I have the pricing wrong, but $500 sounds way too low for the FR custom ABS module I'm thinking of. I'm going by memory though, so you may be correct. The ABS module, as best I can tell, is not on the Ford Racing site. Can you find a link to it?

 

Either way, I'd have to agree with Brian on this - that I'd support a complete ban on ABS systems (or at least a weight penalty as many series use).

 

And I'm sorry Jeff, but I think it's completely appropriate for Brian to make a counter-proposal within this thread, given that's dealing with the exact same subject.

 

Scott Whitehead

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Scott, I'll ask again, where are you getting your information from? "Sounds way too low" doesn't help.

 

The module for the 500C isn't a catalog part so you won't find it on any website. It is just a service part for the 500C, and when it has been sold to 500C owners as a replacement part, it is under $500.

 

The subject of this discussion is the definition of "unmodified OEM system". If you and Brian want to discuss banning ABS altogether, start a new thread and let those who regularly compete in the series comment. To be honest I'd have no problem with a no-ABS rule, but it's a different discussion.

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Scott, I'll ask again, where are you getting your information from? "Sounds way too low" doesn't help.

 

The module for the 500C isn't a catalog part so you won't find it on any website. It is just a service part for the 500C, and when it has been sold to 500C owners as a replacement part, it is under $500.

 

The subject of this discussion is the definition of "unmodified OEM system". If you and Brian want to discuss banning ABS altogether, start a new thread and let those who regularly compete in the series comment. To be honest I'd have no problem with a no-ABS rule, but it's a different discussion.

 

 

What good is fragmenting a discussion on ABS so that people have to go through numerous threads for information? That doesn't sound very efficient.

 

I still say ABS should be eliminated.

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Another vote here for no abs in AI. That includes no engine management systems that have abs capability or traction control. AI was supposed to be somewhat affordable and simple.

 

-V

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Another vote here for no abs in AI. That includes no engine management systems that have abs capability or traction control. AI was supposed to be somewhat affordable and simple.

 

For affordability, it really should be whatever came stock or no ABS. If you say it must be no ABS then that adds an additional (totally marginal) cost up front.

 

I also think that this discussion should be about ABS, regardless of original intent. Sorry Jeff, but the discussion need to be central and all inclusive. Suggest that the thread title is changed to ABS thread.

 

Jason <-- AI West crew bitch and AI hopeful for '08

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AI was supposed to be somewhat affordable and simple.

 

-V

 

How much does each flatspotted tire cost? How about the "oops I locked up my brakes and punted you"? No that doesn't happen often but it really only needs to happen once to pay for an ABS unit.

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there cannot be an "oops I locked up my brakes and bumped you" because abs will do the same thing without the lockup. It essentially will lengthen the stopping distance. How about we keep some driver in the equation and allow them to manage their car on track.

Christine does have a point, but in the rain abs is a huge advantange and those without it might as well stay in the paddock. A possible solution is to add weight to an abs equipped car. Then there is some incentive for those with it from the factory to remove it.

Too many new track drivers, not in reference to AI, learn to drive with ABS and cannot without it. I have never had it and have no desire to install it.

 

-V

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If you say it must be no ABS then that adds an additional (totally marginal) cost up front.

 

Negative on that particular argument point. Removal of fuse and/or disconnection of power connector is free. Now if you choose to dump the weight and simplfy the plumbing by removing the module/sensors/wires/etc., that's just a choice.

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Why do you think it is such an advantage to run ABS?

 

I have run with mine on and off and had the same laptimes back to back!

 

I have not seen any advantage to it in my car, only saves me the cost of flat spotting the occational tire.

 

DD

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Pulling the fuse is not a reliable way to disable ABS. I'm not going to sit here and show you how its done, but if there are ABS components on the car they can be used all while "tech" thinks they are not working. That one is just too easy.

ABS is an advantage in the rain.

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ABS also helps with safety, a great deal. And given that all OEM car companies are required to install ABS on cars (for 10+ years now), potential future AI and AIX cars will have it, unless its removed. Its a natural progression of new technology that has benefits.

The Mustang traction control system sucks. Rain or shine. Its a retarded system purely for grandma driving to the store. Even in rain, it retards the car so much, the car will barely move on a race track.

 

Neither system, on the Mustang, is programable, to my knowledge. However, they both can be turned off electronically.

 

Andy

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I have run with mine on and off and had the same laptimes back to back!

 

Then you are not using your brakes to their full advantage. I don't care what ANYONE says, you CANNOT modulate the brake pedal as fast as an ABS control unit can.

 

A total ban and required removal of all components WILL keep people out of AI. There's NO WAY I would have removed mine prior to starting my first race. Now considering it removed by only unplugging it might be an option.

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