2008 Rules: ABS Modules

[Red Tornado]

I agree with letting folks run it if they want. Almost all new cars have it anyway and if in a race it means a little more safety for some folks fine.

I would rather beat someone in the turns than watch them spin out under braking.

[D Algozine]

ABS is huge advantage in the rain.

I don't think the OEM systems are that good. You loose the absolute control of modulating the release of the brakes, and that transition. I'm sure there are some awesome race systems, but I've never experienced them. I say learn how to do it without the gadgets.

[Jeff F]

And given that all OEM car companies are required to install ABS on cars (for 10+ years now), potential future AI and AIX cars will have it, unless its removed.

What? ABS is not, and has never been required. There are 2008MY cars without it.

[marshallmosty]

I installed the "SN95" version of the Ford ABS system on my '89 AI car back at the end of the '04 season after a missed breaking zone and two flatspotted Hoosiers.

 

I spent more on the tires than the entire ABS system (with some spare sensors to boot)!

 

I believe anyone who has installed the system themselves will tell you it isn't rocket science. Basic brake line routing and a bit of wiring. Since the original install in the engine bay, I've moved the pump and shuttle valve to the passenger side floorboard. That was a bit more of a PITA, but was my choice.

 

I vote for leaving ABS as a "save you A$$" feature. I know I've been in some mixed class traffic behind cars that should have been MUCH faster than I am only to find out they decide to park it at the first braking cone 50 feet sooner than I was even planning on starting my braking.

[swhiteh3]

Scott, I'll ask again, where are you getting your information from? "Sounds way too low" doesn't help.

 

The module for the 500C isn't a catalog part so you won't find it on any website. It is just a service part for the 500C, and when it has been sold to 500C owners as a replacement part, it is under $500.

 

The subject of this discussion is the definition of "unmodified OEM system". If you and Brian want to discuss banning ABS altogether, start a new thread and let those who regularly compete in the series comment. To be honest I'd have no problem with a no-ABS rule, but it's a different discussion.

Did you not read my post RIGHT ABOVE your post? I said very clearly I was going by memory. But being one of the few people on this board who has been involved with racing FR500Cs, I think that carries some weight. However, I admitted the price might be a fault of my memory. Now are you going to quote a real "off-the-street" price, or what? If Joe-Racer wants to buy one for his build-up, how much is it? Exactly? And how available is it? Simply saying that FR500C teams (these are not regular racers in FRPP's eyes) can order them for "under $500" is not what I'm looking for here, because parts are often made available to these teams when they're not available to others, and/or at different pricing schedules.

 

However, that point is not really relevant to me, because the performance advantage this pure-race ABS box offers is my main reason for not believing it has a place in AI. When I say "pure-race", I mean it contains a calibration which is specifically designed for racing, and does not contain the streetable compromises most boxes contain which make them somewhat "performance neutral" in my eyes. Please don't tell me how it's an unmodified Bosch module. I know you're planned project includes this part, but I don't support having pure-race ABS units in AI, just like I don't support having traction control. Sorry.

 

Brake modulation is a skill that a racer needs to learn. I could argue that sequential gearboxes are a safety improvement because they prevent me missing an upshift (and getting rear-ended on a start) or from missing a downshift (and starting axle tramp which initiates a loss of control of the car), but those arguments obviously don't hold water. Traction control should not be legal just because it's helps me prevent spinning out under throttle for the same reasons...

 

I believe that ABS has no place in this series, or should bring with it a weight-penalty. "Proving" that ABS is not operating is as easy as leaving the ABS module itself disconnected and/or removing sensors, which can be easily replaced for another event which allows ABS. I agree pulling a fuse is too easily worked-around, but there is no reason to require the entire system to be pulled out.

 

Nearly every rules proposal people make on this board is somewhat self-serving. That's how these "negotiating periods" always work. People with ABS modules want it left in the rules. People with plans to use "new-hotness" parts want them made legal. And people without ABS want it made illegal. And every single person says "it's what's best for the series", and has a "the sky is falling" viewpoint if they don't get their way. It's pretty predictable, really.

[Mystic_Cobra]

I have run with mine on and off and had the same laptimes back to back!

 

Then you are not using your brakes to their full advantage. I don't care what ANYONE says, you CANNOT modulate the brake pedal as fast as an ABS control unit can.

 

A total ban and required removal of all components WILL keep people out of AI. There's NO WAY I would have removed mine prior to starting my first race. Now considering it removed by only unplugging it might be an option.

 

THere's no way I would have removed mine from my car either. Having the system on the car already adds a weight penalty, doesn't it? I think the stock unmodified system should continue to be allowed for the same reasons as stated.

[racercosmo]

I think the stock unmodified system should continue to be allowed for the same reasons as stated.

Including calipers?

[Mystic_Cobra]

I think the stock unmodified system should continue to be allowed for the same reasons as stated.

Including calipers?

 

what's special about the calipers?

[nape]

I think the stock unmodified system should continue to be allowed for the same reasons as stated.

Including calipers?

 

what's special about the calipers?

 

They would have to be run if you wanted to allow a "stock unmodified system".

 

If you change calipers, you've modified the system. At least, I think that's the point he's trying to make.

[racercosmo]

I think the stock unmodified system should continue to be allowed for the same reasons as stated.

Including calipers?

 

what's special about the calipers?

 

They would have to be run if you wanted to allow a "stock unmodified system".

 

If you change calipers, you've modified the system. At least, I think that's the point he's trying to make.

Correct. I really don't care either way, I was just adding fuel to the fire. A few pro racing organizations require a completly unmodified braking system to run ABS.

[Red Tornado]

Unless I am really missing something this is not a huge advantage except in rain (you could argue for slower in dry). My car doesn't have it (of course 4 flat spotted tires after nationals I might have wished I did) but I think it's a whatever you want to do type of thing in my mind.