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AWD (no flaming please), and no mention of the Audi


heavychevy

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The rules don't guarantee that any car (stock or modified) will be competitive. It's up to you to make it competitive.

 

Correct, but it's not inappropriate to discuss how a rule is limiting the ability for a car to be more competitive in a thread thusly titled. We are attempting to right this wrong and therefore are working on making 'it' more competitive.

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maybe I should build an awd car.

 

This time next year, we'll hear everyone complaining that the awd penalty is too soft. It's all relative.

 

In TTS & TTR, you can move pick up points, run double wishbones, CF this, even relocate the engine. If you want to save $$, demod your car to run TTA.

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The rules don't guarantee that any car (stock or modified) will be competitive. It's up to you to make it competitive.

 

Correct, but it's not inappropriate to discuss how a rule is limiting the ability for a car to be more competitive in a thread thusly titled. We are attempting to right this wrong and therefore are working on making 'it' more competitive.

 

My point is you can't complain that you have an unfair advantage if you haven't maximized the car for the target class. oldpoop admits he hasn't done the aero and suspension work that is allowed by the class. How can you say its the AWD when there is so much left on the table? If I had a TTD car that was stock, I can't complain that TTD cars with 19 points are beating me, right? Same thing, only oldpoop has chosen a wide open class.

 

Then there's the driver talent/skill factor. Not to pimp you oldpoop, but you were holding me up in my TTD car at Autobahn this summer. Of course, it's my home track and I don't think you ever drove it before, but the point is that you ultimately have to be able to drive the car you build.

 

I have a suggestion for a new rule: if you think your car is not competitive (for whatever reason and whatever class), Allen drives it and if he sticks it on the podium (and he probably will) you gotta shut up!

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This is another subject but I think 8.7:1 all the way down to 5.5:1 is far too big of a gap. Now there are tons of cars in No Man's Land, and they may be competitive now, but when NASA gets bigger, they will be lost in the wash.

 

I will admit, even a 8:1 or 7.5:1 to one would instantly make me a major contender so I'm more excited about it than others may be. And as NASA sit's now, still being in developing stages of TT competition, it will grow to the point where the classes are too broad and have to be expanded.

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[Then there's the driver talent/skill factor. Not to pimp you oldpoop, but you were holding me up in my TTD car at Autobahn this summer. Of course, it's my home track and I don't think you ever drove it before, but the point is that you ultimately have to be able to drive the car you build.

 

Now there's a nasty shot. I beat you at Iowa Speedway this spring

http://www.mylaps.com/results/newResults.jsp?id=515835

so I doubt I would hold you up if my car was running properly, which it has done very little of this year. We call it Mr Never on Sunday. At Autobahn, we had a massive boost leak from a blown intercooler, so I was way down on power. Besides, being a national champion and all, I would have thought that a wonderful, talented, skilled, fantastic driver like yourself would have no trouble passing an old fart like me in a crippled car.

 

Of all people, youi should understand that people and cars have bad days. After all, I beat you by SIX SECONDS at Iowa Speedway, but I immediately assumed that you had a mechanical problem, not that you couldn't drive the car. I don't feel the need to "pimp you. "

 

I can drive the car, thank you very much. When I won TTB last fall at Road America, I was the 5th fastest TT car overall, and beat TTA cars, TTU cars, and even John Slinkard! That's not to brag, just to un-pimp myself from your nasty little slur. (I never beat Slinky again, but doing it once is a career highlight). At Iowa Speedway, I was the 6th fastest TT car on one day.

 

When the car runs right, it's fast and I drive it OK. Not brilliantly, just OK. But neither of us are good enough to be competitive in TTS with the horsepower penalty.

 

All I want is a level playing field against Z06es. And not to be pimped.

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There is nothing technically superior about a transverse leaf setup , even on the Vett. Ford's mighty Model A had them.

 

uhh, you sure? looks like truck style to me... maybe its not VERY major, but unsprung weight, where the weight is located, etc... its pretty slick when you really take a look at it, nevermind how much room for tire it leaves open and the ability to corner-weight the car stock

 

to the GSX guy, I've gotta agree with Skillicorn and other peoples assesments, de-mod the car to TTA, there will be plenty of Z06s to play with there, and you don't have to deal with the "too harsh" pw:weight adjustment and instead just take modification points or just accept the fact that you've chosen to play in TTS and modify away accordingly. Its not like your car's base class is S/U/R and you don't have that option to de-modify back down to some level where it should be o.k.

 

You're coming across as overly stubborn, like the world should revolve around you and the ruleset should favor your car to compete against Corvettes without having to do any real work. Yeah, the adjustment might be on the higher side than it needs to be, but not by alot.... and not enough to really make your car suddenly competitive, you're going to have to get out to the garage and work, and get out on track and drive it like a pro... 'cause the people that podium in TT at Nationals aren't hacks by any stretch of the imagination (not to say that you are, but you've gotta really drive well to podium in any class/car/etc)

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You're coming across as overly stubborn, like the world should revolve around you and the ruleset should favor your car to compete against Corvettes without having to do any real work. )

 

You're right. I am stubborn. But it looks like a lost cause to me. I guess I better drop this before I piss off everybody. Who started this thread anyway? Wasn't me.

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Let me know if I'm doing this right, I am going to compare the C5 Z05 (3180 lbs and 405 hp) and the 996 TT (3500lbs and 415 hp):

 

Assuming the suspension is free, and both cars have DOT's and the only thing left is weight/hp (AWD)

 

C5Z06:

 

2750 lbs - 458 rwhp

2950 lbs - 508 rwhp

3150 lbs - 562 rwhp

3350 lbs - 620 rwhp

 

 

To be able to run those same hp figures for the TT

 

458 awhp - 3250 lbs

508 awhp - 3300 lbs

562 awhp - 3600 lbs

620 awhp - ~3750 lbs

 

 

Does this seem fair????

 

 

 

All I did was use Vette figures skipping every 200 lbs, then went up .5 from there (AWD penalty) and .5 is worth about 600 lbs depending on where you start from.

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slow--

 

Again, I wasn't meaning to break bad on you or argue that you can't drive your car, or otherwise indicate I'm a better driver etc. I was merely making the point that when all is said and done, the driver is the number one variable (that includes knowledge of the track as I was trying to illustrate).

 

But you bring up another factor--reliability/preparation. As you know, it's tough to win sitting in the paddock or running a car that is having problems.

 

Bottom line for everyone--bring a car that is maximized for you class (yes, that might cost some money) and running properly. If you aren't doing that, you can't complain you aren't competitive.

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I also have an old junker that has to compete with the mighty Z06's. Granted, it's an old Corvette, but after removing 400 lbs and adding 150 hp it now has the 8.7 wt/pwr ratio to compete with the newer cars fully stocked with ABS, A/C and thumpin' stereos.

 

However, instead of whining, I've been thinking about what I need to do this winter to make up the 0.6 seconds between me and the podium in TTS.

 

I have a long list of suspension and aero modifications that ought to more than do it. It isn't going to take big bucks, but it will take a lot of time and effort.

 

So yeah, the thought has crossed my mind that those cars have an advantage, but that will just make it more satisfying next year when they're behind me trying to catch up...

 

Unless they make the same mods and get even faster, then I'll start crying about how unfair they are, too

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^^^Winner, not a whiner! Good luck with the build up.

 

I don't understand why lobbying for a rule change makes me a whiner. Is everyone who asks for a modification in the rules a whiner?

 

I went from a contender and class winner in TTB in 2006 to an also-ran in TTS because of rules that cripple my car. Am I not allowed to mention any of this? Am I not allowed to point out inequities in the rules? Or does that make me a whiner?

 

I gave it my best shot, made my points as best I could, responded to the flames, lost the argument, and--like I said above--I am giving up the effort. You win. But you guys just gotta get in a parting shot, don't you?

 

Good luck to the next racer who asks for a rule change in some other class. I guess he'll be a whiner, too.

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^^^Winner, not a whiner! Good luck with the build up.

 

I don't understand why lobbying for a rule change makes me a whiner. Is everyone who asks for a modification in the rules a whiner?

 

I went from a contender and class winner in TTB in 2006 to an also-ran in TTS because of rules that cripple my car. Am I not allowed to mention any of this? Am I not allowed to point out inequities in the rules? Or does that make me a whiner?

 

I gave it my best shot, made my points as best I could, responded to the flames, lost the argument, and--like I said above--I am giving up the effort. You win. But you guys just gotta get in a parting shot, don't you?

 

Good luck to the next racer who asks for a rule change in some other class. I guess he'll be a whiner, too.

 

Didn't say you were whining. I said he wasn't whining. You have every right to raise rule changes. I brought lots of stuff up last year (and lost most of em!) I was just pointing out that this guy was doing what is expected--evaluate the competition, the car, and the rules and do what he has to to get to the top--whether that's moving classes or maximizing a given class.

 

The arugument that the AWD penalty is what is holding you back is specious because it's not the only variable, and in fact as pointed out above, not event the most important variable. No one will call you a whiner (not that anyone has to this point) if you come to the table and say, "hey, I maximized this car for TTx, the car ran beautifully and handled as expected, i'm a good driver, but I still can't compete because of the penalty" then a discussion can be had. So far it seems people just through their hands up and say "hey, I run 1:30's and my class runs 128s, but this other class runs 130s so I should be there." That's not fair and it's not how racing works. If you keep changing the rules, people are gonna drop out cause every year you'll have to rebuild the car.

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Nothing trick about a leaf setup, it's still just a leaf spring .

Race cars are built with coilovers

 

you read corner-carvers alot don't you?

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The bottom line here is if you want to win (or be competitive) in virtually any TT class, but for sure in S,U,R, you are going to have to spend money. And plenty of it. The TT system favors cars that are good off the showroom floor - just look at the winners at Nationals. My personal opinion is that the Corvettes are either the perfect TT killing machine, or slightly mis-classed. I could gut my Evo and drop some weight but I will still be short on power, tire width, cg, aero, etc. No points left in A to do that and I don't have the money to compete in S. So knowing that for my situation I am in the wrong car for my chosen class, I've elected to put it back on the street. And no, I'm not buying a vette.

 

I had plans to build something class specific, but now I'm having second thoughts on that as well, as by the time it's ready it will probably end up being an S car instead of a D car where I was intending it to fit.

 

SOP - it sucks the rules hit your car as hard as they did. It also sucks there is no place for it to be competitive as-is. This is how we lose numbers. I understand your point, but the car is just not a good fit in S, and there won't be a rule change for one guy. I got pounded by the vettes all season in A, but don't expect anything to change there either. Good luck on whatever you decide to do in '08. I'll likely be sitting out until I can afford to be competitive.

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I don't understand why lobbying for a rule change makes me a whiner. Is everyone who asks for a modification in the rules a whiner?

 

Not at all. I apologize for implying that you were.

 

Awhile back I asked for NASA to consider changing the "reward" that the EVO's and STi cars get for being 4 doors. My argument was that the AWD advantage they have should be penalized, and not counteracted by the 4 door configuration, as those cars are built for the track (much like a Z06) and most of the AWD cars in competition these days are 4 door. Amusingly, your car was the one that killed my argument, as it is AWD and a 2 door.

 

Basically, enough examples were brought to my attention to make me realize that my argument was too narrow to really warrant a rule change. I feel that this one is, also.

 

I honestly don't see how the extra 0.5 points you lose is going to make a huge difference. A difference, yes, but as big as you're implying? No way. If you're bailing out of competition because of 0.5 points then I'm sorry for you, and me, as it's one less person the class.

 

I considered jumping on the wagon and selling my car and moving to a Z06, but decided the cost just wasn't worth it. I may not have won Nationals, but I'm certainly not going to bail on competition because I'm not guaranteed a win. That's pretty weak.

 

And even though they're not perfect and the occasional car doesn't seem to fit, I think the rules are pretty damn good for TT. Look at the winners at Nationals - in most classes the top 3 were separated by less than 1 second. In most cases (except TTA) there were a variety of different makes on the podium.

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0.5 lbs/hp is a MASSIVE difference from half of a mod point in terms of how much it'll affect your car's performance

 

If we take the 4 door credit away from the Evo/STi guys (or reduce it) how do the numbers start to stack up? Maybe if both penatlies/rewards are slightly reduced it'll keep those cars close to where they are now, bring the 2 door AWDs in line, and not affect the dominant 'vettes...?

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Which brings us back to the problem of the 8.7:1 rule. Guys can easily hit this ratio, reliably, in many cars. They built cars that go that fast. They go that fast in HPDE's with other clubs. They want to go that fast as they further their hobby. And the current rules bump them into a class that requires expensive items and development like aero, exotic suspension, and more to be competitive.

 

This club is supposed to be rounding these people up and giving them a place to compete. If you want to grow the ranks, go after the people. Telling them they need to lower their hp to compete when they've been HPDE-ing with guys with similar or more hp, is backwards. You have to use the right bait when fishing. I don't know how many times I've heard people say they would do TT, but because of the power they're making they'd be up against 'unlimited' cars. Personally, I kept my modded car a street car and bought a second one to keep close to stock horsepower wise. It's being built for a class. But, others would just as soon do HPDE's with their friends than de-mod or buy a second race car. I ponder this still today.

 

The AWD penalty is another hard pill to swallow. Guys scream SCCA penalty when they start adding up the hp difference when comparing RWD and AWD cars of the same weight. heavychevy provided some good examples of those simple calculations that will turn a guy off from NASA real quick.

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0.5 lbs/hp is a MASSIVE difference from half of a mod point in terms of how much it'll affect your car's

 

I am not continuing my argument, just answering the question posed above.

 

Because of the penalty, my 3230 lb AWD car had to dyno at 355 to fit into TTS, where I run against 3100 lb 410 hp Z06es (re: previous post above) That was on a NASA-certified dyno at AMS, so it is an accurate number.

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0.5 lbs/hp is a MASSIVE difference from half of a mod point in terms of how much it'll affect your car's performance

 

If we take the 4 door credit away from the Evo/STi guys (or reduce it) how do the numbers start to stack up? Maybe if both penatlies/rewards are slightly reduced it'll keep those cars close to where they are now, bring the 2 door AWDs in line, and not affect the dominant 'vettes...?

 

Well now I'm really starting to get upset. Because 2dr AWD cars are shot in the leg.

 

On one hand you have to run approximately 500 lbs more than a RWD car to be able to run the same power, all else the same.

 

ON the other hand the 4dr EVO's Subies get most of that back with the concession.

 

 

That is b.s.

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Because of the penalty, my 3230 lb AWD car had to dyno at 355 to fit into TTS, where I run against 3100 lb 410 hp Z06es (re: previous post above) That was on a NASA-certified dyno at AMS, so it is an accurate number.

 

Where in the heck are you getting these numbers? A 410 hp car needs to weigh 3567 lbs to stay in TTS.

 

For your 355 whp (which is almost exactly what a stock Z06 has, by the way) you have to weigh 3266 lbs with AWD. Without it you'd have to weigh 3088 lbs. That brings the grand total of your penalty to 178 lbs.

 

My car's ratio was 8.4. I ran skinnier tires to get back 0.4 points and be legal. Why don't you do the same? I have a feeling 275 series tires on your car is still a massive increase from stock, and it nullifies almost all of the AWD penalty.

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I'll do the same for a the C5Z and TT for the TTS class.

 

Z06 in TTS:

 

350 rwhp - 3200-3300 lbs

 

 

996 TT in TTS

 

350 awhp - 3650-3700 lbs

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Where in the heck are you getting these numbers? A 410 hp car needs to weigh 3567 lbs to stay in TTS.

 

For your 355 whp (which is almost exactly what a stock Z06 has, by the way) you have to weigh 3266 lbs with AWD. Without it you'd have to weigh 3088 lbs. That brings the grand total of your penalty to 178 lbs.

 

He mis-spoke. The Vette orignally had 410 and was then detuned for TTS.

 

178lbs is a big deal when cornering, braking, and accelerating that extra mass.

 

My car's ratio was 8.4. I ran skinnier tires to get back 0.4 points and be legal. Why don't you do the same? I have a feeling 275 series tires on your car is still a massive increase from stock, and it nullifies almost all of the AWD penalty.

 

SOP did use 275 tires. Several of the TTS Vettes do too from what I hear. That helps if your competitor is using bigger tires, but several guys found they could do better with a better weight:hp ratio and the 275 tires.

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