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AWD (no flaming please), and no mention of the Audi


heavychevy

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As for the awd issue, I have been for a ride in my class leaders awd Evo and that thing rips around the corners . I don't have much simpathy for the awd crowd. They might not be competetive in the uper classes but should do well from TTA and down . But we don't get Vetts in A at NorCal events . Lots of Evo's and STI's

 

Was the EVO's suspension optimized? They have some awesome choices to augment their great stock suspension. In TTA down, those suspension mods will result in big points. That's why I believe the EVO's (starting in TTB) run in TTS and up. For the AWD cars that start around TTC & D, those suspension points hurt a lot. Most guys 'get by' without the 10 point struts in order to keep out of the unlimited classes.

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Let's try and stay on track. The stock car talk would be better suited to another thread. Let's keep this thread on good changes to grow the club.

 

So to sum things up:

 

1) Most AWD cars have the engine and transmission in front of the front wheels. This drastically increases the polar moment of inertia. The push (understeer) is only counteracted by reducing rear grip.

 

2) Because of the front axles you are unable to lower or move this weight. A longitudinally mounted motor can be lowered and moved back up to 10 inches.

 

3) Although some AWD dynos read low, to be sure that it's in compliance, a buffer is left in case GPS or a Dynoject AWD dyno is used. A friend's Superflow dyno even has a correction called DynojetSAE.

 

4) This is just peak hp, this doesn't take into account the massive torque that can be made with a V8 powerplant. I think we can kill two birds with one stone. Most AWD cars use an Inline 4 or small V6. A lower AWD penalty would make up for the lack of torque these cars produce compared to the majority of RWD cars that have a V8 or large V6 motors. The FWD cars can keep their point give-back to make up for their lack of torque. It would benefit the majority of the cars that are raced.

 

5) The four door reward is too generous since most of these cars are being built with light materials on top. Most have very thin metal or even carbon fiber roofskins. The pillars have been optimized for lightness and strength as well. No one's racing a '75 Ford LTD 4-door.

 

Separate issue

The 8.7:1 ratio is too low and limiting participation from guys that want to run cars with no exotic (read expensive) suspension and aero. Go to an HPDE outside a national club. You will see them. Vettes, Vipers, Mustangs, and other modded street cars. Give them a place to play or they won't. It's that simple.

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So to sum things up: .

 

You missed two points in your summation:

 

1. Since Z06 Corvettes won virtually every podium position in TTA, TTS and TTU at the Nationals, and AWD cars sucked in everything but TTR, it means that:

 

a. Z06es don't need no help from a penalty

b. AWD cars are being penalized way too much. Eliminate the penalty so AWD cars can podium in all three classes.

 

2. Although Slow Old Poop is a crabby, opinionated, whiny, stubborn SOB who won't listen to reason, has questionable driving skills, and doesn't want to spend $10,000 making his ancient Eclipse more competitive in TTS, he appears to be the only 2-door AWD car out there that's trying to compete. Maybe there's a reason for this. Maybe everybody else knows AWDs are not competitive under the penalty, and are staying away from NASA.

 

What we need are for some of the NASA national champions--such as the two who posted the most in this thread, and are wonderful, talented, experienced, competitive drivers--to see if they can build an AWD car that's competitive in TTA, TTU or TTS under the current rules. Bet they can't.

 

This thread appears to be winding up. Thanks to everrybody for their comments, especially to the few who support eliminating the AWD penalty. See you in HPDE4 next year! I am going to try doing this for fun for a change.

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In OH/IN HPDE 4 and TT is the same run group, so you're basically opting out of competition? .

 

Yes, that's about it. I'll run for fun because I have a need for speed, but it costs too much to compete, especially when the car has no chance. So, no more $1100 Hoosiers, no more dyno tunes, no more crew expenses, no more $1500 weekends. I did all that when I thought I had a chance, but when the TTU Z06es detuned and came down to TTS, that was the final straw.

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What we need are for some of the NASA national champions--such as the two who posted the most in this thread, and are wonderful, talented, experienced, competitive drivers--to see if they can build an AWD car that's competitive in TTA, TTU or TTS under the current rules. Bet they can't.

 

This is gonna kill this thread, but . . . wasn't the Audi competitive? How about James Elterman in his STi (TTA) or Clifton (TTS)? Those guys finished about a half second out of a podium. I think most would consider that "competitive".

 

Anyway, I bet the folks at VFC ENGINEERING could get it done!

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In OH/IN HPDE 4 and TT is the same run group, so you're basically opting out of competition? .

 

Yes, that's about it. I'll run for fun because I have a need for speed, but it costs too much to compete, especially when the car has no chance. So, no more $1100 Hoosiers, no more dyno tunes, no more crew expenses, no more $1500 weekends. I did all that when I thought I had a chance, but when the TTU Z06es detuned and came down to TTS, that was the final straw.

 

I don't see what the big deal is. I run the Z06's down in my FWD shoebox! If i had AWD they wouldn't pull me out of the corners.

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[i don't see what the big deal is. I run the Z06's down in my FWD shoebox! If i had AWD they wouldn't pull me out of the corners.

 

Depends on the Z06, I guess. I can run with Z06es in TTA, but not the ones in TTS. Besides, you may not have encountered the formidable Z06es we have in the Midwest region. Across the board, class to class, we have some of the baddest cars in the country.

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Personally, corvettes are great track cars, that's why there are so many of winning in different competitive areas. I dont think they should be knocked for being great cars.

 

But I also dont think giving competitors restrictions helps either. Of course this isnt all about corvettes. But I honestly dont beleive there is any concrete evidence that AWD is faster on a circuit compared to RWD on the same car, and we are talking about R compounds here, not street tires.

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What we need are for some of the NASA national champions--such as the two who posted the most in this thread, and are wonderful, talented, experienced, competitive drivers--to see if they can build an AWD car that's competitive in TTA, TTU or TTS under the current rules. Bet they can't.

 

This is gonna kill this thread, but . . . wasn't the Audi competitive? How about James Elterman in his STi (TTA) or Clifton (TTS)? Those guys finished about a half second out of a podium. I think most would consider that "competitive".

 

Anyway, I bet the folks at VFC ENGINEERING could get it done!

 

Ah, but those get a 0.4 giveback for being 4 doors almost negating the AWD penalty.

 

Apples and Oranges

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Ah, but the challenge was to build an competitive AWD, not a competitive 2-dr AWD. I have no dog in the fight, but I'd say your better argument is that the 4dr isn't a penalty rather than that the AWD isn't a benefit. As I recall, the general consensus in the BMW world is that the sedan's are stiffer than the coupes cause of the B-pillar.

 

BTW, how may 2-dr AWD models are there that can actually reach TTS/U?

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Ah, but the challenge was to build an competitive AWD, not a competitive 2-dr AWD. I have no dog in the fight, but I'd say your better argument is that the 4dr isn't a penalty rather than that the AWD isn't a benefit. As I recall, the general consensus in the BMW world is that the sedan's are stiffer than the coupes cause of the B-pillar.

 

BTW, how may 2-dr AWD models are there that can actually reach TTS/U?

 

Leave the 4 door penalty out of this ! ! ! !

 

Appearently Poop has a TTS 2dr AWD.

 

And FWIW - I have run with the MW & Oh/In region TTS vettes and held my own. The first time I was ever at Mid Ohio last spring I was 2-3 seconds off pace with some of the locals, but I was on street tires (practicing for One Lap), so that was expected.

 

The TTS Z06 I beat at Rd Atl (we had same level of driving time at that track) was in 3rd place Friday at Nationals before his motor popped.

 

I know it's a bit of bench racing there, but it's the only other comparison I have to give you. Unless you want to count beating a 600WHP Ford GT at Mid-Ohio during One Lap.

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BTW, how may 2-dr AWD models are there that can actually reach TTS/U?

 

I have one, but it's going w2w next year.

 

The Corvettes are really fast, but I didn't have any problems with them at Putnam, or Autobahn (I ran HPDE4). And my suspension wasn't even really setup.

I had a hp/wt ratio of about 7.0, which would put me in TTU...

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Depends on the Z06, I guess. I can run with Z06es in TTA, but not the ones in TTS.

 

I don't think that's true, either. Do you realize the difference between 1st in TTS and first in TTA was 0.6 seconds? Here's how TTS and TTA merged would have shaken out:

 

TT S 1 1:33.136 - Moser

TT A 1 1:33.889 - Smith

TT S 2 1:34.451 - Sawtelle

TT A 2 1:34.634 - Kellner

TT S 3 1:34.811 - Ellingson

TT A 3 1:35.074 - White

TT A 4 1:35.652 - Mullen

TT S 4 1:35.541 - Ching

 

So...you can hang with a TTA 'vette but not TTS one? Hmmm.

 

Besides, you may not have encountered the formidable Z06es we have in the Midwest region. Across the board, class to class, we have some of the baddest cars in the country

 

Yes, those near stock TTA vettes are definately faster than other stock ones across the county.

 

Sorry, I'm inadvertantly turning into a d!ck about this, but your arguments just don't hold any water.

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Depends on the Z06, I guess. I can run with Z06es in TTA, but not the ones in TTS.

 

I don't think that's true, either. Do you realize the difference between 1st in TTS and first in TTA was 0.6 seconds? So...you can hang with a TTA 'vette but not TTS one? Hmmm. Sorry, I'm inadvertantly turning into a d!ck about this, but your arguments just don't hold any water.

 

At the regional level, I can hang with TTA Vettes, and run similar lap times.

 

At the Nationals, you get the best of the best, and any national podium finisher is hard to beat. The only rational conclusion that can come from analyzing national results is to see what cars dominate what classes.

 

Seeing lower classed cars beat or match times with higher classed cars happens all the time, especially at regionals. Just look at John Slinkard, whose TTB S2000 regularly beats nearly everybody at regional events.

 

If somebody--anybody--ran a car like mine competitively in TTS or TTA anywhere in the country, I would assume the problem is me, not the rules, and we wouldn't be having this discussion.

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I don't think that's true, either. Do you realize the difference between 1st in TTS and first in TTA was 0.6 seconds? Here's how TTS and TTA merged would have shaken out:

.......

 

So...you can hang with a TTA 'vette but not TTS one? Hmmm.

 

I believe SOP was talking about the Vettes in the Midwest region. I recall the time gap was bigger.

 

It just doesn't make sense for 2-door, AWD cars to be penalized if everyone's running non-street tires.

 

The AWD cars that are doing well are 4-door.

 

Yes, those near stock TTA vettes are definately faster than other stock ones across the county.

 

Really? I thought the 01-04 ZO6 started out in TTA. Last I checked that leaves you 19 points to optimize the car. Add aero, tires, and suspension to be a class killer.

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BTW, how may 2-dr AWD models are there that can actually reach TTS/U?

 

How about the 3000GT VR4 and the Dodge Stealth? With a few mods, they could easily get into TTA, TTS and TTU.

A bunch of them regularly compete in HPDEs, but hardly any of them are moving up to TT.

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At the regional level, I can hang with TTA Vettes, and run similar lap times.

 

At the Nationals, you get the best of the best, and any national podium finisher is hard to beat.

 

This is true in most cases, but in this case every one of the times posted above is from the OH/Ind region except Kellner, who's Midwest (close enough). From reading your posts above, that's your local. So unfortunately you're stuck with them.

 

If somebody--anybody--ran a car like mine competitively in TTS or TTA anywhere in the country, I would assume the problem is me, not the rules, and we wouldn't be having this discussion.

 

On this I can't comment. I don't have a car like yours and don't plan to build one. All I can say is that I'm in a similar situation with an outdated car (1993) that I put together myself on a tiny budget being classed with some big guns. On the other hand, in said car I won several regional events (any one where Moser didn't show ) and was about 0.4 seconds off the podium at Nationals. And I bought only one new set of tires all season (for Nats).

 

Don't bail on TT just because you feel you can't run with one type of car. That's a weak argument! We need you in the class. Maybe I'll let you draft me down the back straight...

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SOP--

 

I reread this thread and found one of your posts that I had missed. Am I correct that your dilema is that you can be competitive in TTA, but you want to go faster so you run TTS? If that's the case, then the answer is simple--we don't need a rules change, you just need to decide if you want to be competitive or just light your hair on fire and go like snot.

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Yeah, I can only think of these:

 

Mitsubishi 3000GT

Dodge Stealth

Mitsubishi Eclipse

Eagle Talon

Plymouth Laser

BMW 328xi

Lamborghini Murcielago

Some Porsches

Some Audis

 

 

The first 5 I've seen often at HPDE's. I've helped them class their cars in TT/PT. Then they back out after seeing the listed laptimes and competitors in their classes. About a month ago I heard this, "2:42s at Road America?!?!? My best is a 2:48 and I'm hauling oats at the other club's HPDEs." It does not surprise me that the only AWD's doing well are 4 door cars.

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SOP--

 

I reread this thread and found one of your posts that I had missed. Am I correct that your dilema is that you can be competitive in TTA, but you want to go faster so you run TTS? If that's the case, then the answer is simple--we don't need a rules change, you just need to decide if you want to be competitive or just light your hair on fire and go like snot.

 

SOP isn't the only person looking to run a 2-door AWD. The rule affects everyone that does.

 

And for anyone that doesn't know, the rule is also used for base-classing all cars. It doesn't affect only the TTSUR cars.

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Mitsubishi 3000GT

Dodge Stealth

Mitsubishi Eclipse

Eagle Talon

Plymouth Laser

 

You're artificially padding the list. There are only 2 cars listed above.

 

 

Then they back out after seeing the listed laptimes and competitors in their classes. About a month ago I heard this, "2:42s at Road America?!?!? My best is a 2:48 and I'm hauling oats at the other club's HPDEs."

 

That has less to do with car type and more to do with level of competition. I know a lot of people that smoked the other cars in a BMWCCA or PCA HPDE "fast" group, yet came to NASA and found they were bringing up the rear. When there's more on the line than bragging rights the faster drivers congregate. I used to run 1:45's at Mid-Ohio and think I was pretty fast, too.

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Yeah, I can only think of these:

 

Mitsubishi 3000GT

Dodge Stealth

Mitsubishi Eclipse

Eagle Talon

Plymouth Laser

BMW 328xi

Lamborghini Murcielago

Some Porsches

Some Audis

 

 

The first 5 I've seen often at HPDE's. I've helped them class their cars in TT/PT. Then they back out after seeing the listed laptimes and competitors in their classes. About a month ago I heard this, "2:42s at Road America?!?!? My best is a 2:48 and I'm hauling oats at the other club's HPDEs." It does not surprise me that the only AWD's doing well are 4 door cars.

 

So really, we are talking about 4 different cars that are AWD, 2dr, and reasonably capable of modding to TTS:

 

The stealth/3000 are the same thing; as are the talon/eclipse/laser; the lambo; the 911TT (I can't think of another AWD pcar). You'd have to nut shit on mods to get an old audi quattro or any AWD Bimmer into TTS range so I don't count them.

 

Just wondering.

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SOP--

 

I reread this thread and found one of your posts that I had missed. Am I correct that your dilema is that you can be competitive in TTA, but you want to go faster so you run TTS? If that's the case, then the answer is simple--we don't need a rules change, you just need to decide if you want to be competitive or just light your hair on fire and go like snot.

 

I got into TTS because my car dynoed at 355hp, and so that's where it fit strictly according to hp/wt, not points. I probably need to investigate if counting points will get me into TTA instead.

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