9.5:1 rule

[mwilson7]

How strictly is this rule enforced on the west coast? If your 6 lbs under the minimum weight based on your dyno sheet or a few hp over would you be disqualified?

 

If there isn't a dyno at each track event how is this really enforceable?

[Jaymz]

I am not in AI but 6 lbs is less weight than a gal of gas. It seems like there should be some + or - percentage to allow for inconsistencies on different scales or dynos.

[mwilson7]

Then that should be listed in the rules shouldn't it? If 6 lbs is ok, is 10? 15? 20? Where do you draw the line on the margin of error?

 

This discussion is really a mute point in a way as we don't have dyno's at the track to verify hp numbers anyway.

[nasaracer32]

Rules are rules. They should be enforced the way they are written, plain and simple. If you are over, then you are over.

 

I do think there is some confusion as to when a car is weighed. I have always been told that the official weight is with the driver in full gear and with the car full of fluids. I think it would do good if national would clarify this for everyone. Maybe that way, the interpretation of this won't vary from region to region.

 

This topic is another good reason why the same dyno needs to be at every event provided by the region. Kudos again to Cobetto and Marcus in the VA region for doing this. At least in VA, there aren't anymore of the 'Well, the other dyno said..." conversations.

 

Until these things are fixed, then it seems there will always be a problem. But, again, right now in 2004, the rules call for 9.5:1 and there is nothing about a +/- factor, so if you are over, then you are over and should be DQ'ed.

[Bryan Shugg]

The weight is taken post race, with driver. No fluids (fuel, beer) are allowed to be added. Last year on the East coast, people were allowed to top off fluids.

[Guest]

This is an easy one to answer, none.

 

yes scales can be a bit screwy, but to compensate for them weigh your car with driver, all equipment, ZERO gas and there the weight to be used for the hp:lbs ratio. If something like this is done then you have a fudge factor when there is fuel in the car after the race and you should be legal. The SCCA has DQ'd people for being as little as 3 over after the race at the runoffs.

[ERVRCG]

It's pretty simple...

 

You have a submitted HP/Tq sheet, right? If you don't it doesn't matter because your supposed to run AIX, anyway.

 

You need have access to "official" scales at every event. You need to have a published weight for your HP and TQ. It is then up to the competitors to make sure of thier compliance by checking the weight of your car during the weekend. If you come off the track light, your DQ'd, it has to be this way.

 

In my opinion a +/- 1gallon of fuel weight is plenty. That is about a 13lb swing.

 

Eric Vickerman

[RichardP]

I do think there is some confusion as to when a car is weighed.

 

From the American Iron Series rules:

 

6. “Vehicle weight measurements will be taken post-race with driver. No addition of any fluids, removal of equipment, or other activity that could modify the vehicle weight is allowed prior to weighing the vehicle.”

 

Doesn't sound very confusing to me.

 

Also, by definition, a minimum has no tolerance band. You can be as much over the minimum weight as you want but you can't be below the minimum weight. It's up to you to decide how hard you want to push the weights. A couple of pounds here or there isn't going to win you the race but it can get you disqualified.

 

 

Richard Pedersen

#91 AI NASA TX

[mwilson7]

I'm glad we are all in agreement!

 

Thanks for the quick replies.

[racercosmo]

I think it's pretty strict on the West Coast, but I have only seen it become an issue twice. Somebody was Dq'ed for a 10 lb difference.

[pederb]

If you are worried I would recomend to dyno and weigh the car at the track as you said they can be a little off sometimes.

[944-Spec#94]

Honestly guys weighing cars at the end of a race or qualfying session is quite easy and common.

 

In 944-spec we must come in at 2600lbs min with driver in the car. We are measured at the end of the race and/or qualfying session. My car is light and was always close on min weight. I decided to end my issues and just add in eough ballast to be 10-15 lbs OVER min weight even with Zero gas in the car. This would allow for some scale variation.

 

I typically hit the scales at 2610 to 2625 depedning on race distance, scales and how much I had for lunch.

 

 

You guys should know you offical HP number. So therefore you should know your Weight to meet the 9.5:1. So just check the scales some time during the day to ensure you are at least as heavy as you need to be. If doubt att more gas. 2 gals shoud give you 13 lbs more you should be good and I doubt you'd ever feel the difference of 13 lbs on the track.

[johnbasf]

Peder, Is everyones weight public knowlege? Thanks

[nasaracer32]

Doesn't sound very confusing to me.

 

 

Yeah, after I posted that, John told me it was in the rules now. Since I am not racing this year due to cost, political BS and other stuff, I didn't know they had updated it. A good move on theri part to do so.

[pederb]

Yes weight and dyno results are public knowledge

[mwilson7]

If you are worried I would recomend to dyno and weigh the car at the track as you said they can be a little off sometimes.

 

Who pays for the dyno at the track? That appears to be one area where NASA needs to step up if they are going to make it a rule.

 

Yes weight and dyno results are public knowledge.

 

This should probably be communicated to all regions as they all do not share your viewpoint.

 

There are quite a few changes that I see are going to be needed for next year.

[Jim P.]

Why don't we set the standard on the website(s)?

 

Every driver's info, dyno sheet and weight are posted on the website and updated after each race that they are weighed and dynoed.

 

What do you think?

[tacovini]

Another thought on HP/TQ/WT #s for compliance with the 9.5 rule.

 

Assume the HP/TQ is supposed to be the fixed season # and the weight is supposed to be the variable for the season. (Especially for those of us without trackside dynos and who don't want to dyno before every event.)

 

In Texas, we tried to make the impound scale process smoother at TWS by writing the minimum weight (as calculated from your dynosheet at pre-race tech) on everyone's windshield. Once on the scales, a quick reference to the windshield indicated if they were OK or not. (Zero tolerance if below the min. weight.)

 

Process wise it worked great and once other racers and looky-loos were onto the windshield reference, everyone was checking out windshields to see what all the different AI target weights were. Administratively, it didn't last long though because after that event everyone peeled their 9.5 tech target weight sticker off. Now it seems redundant (to me as a racer & a director ) on busy race weekends to have to go thru that minimum-weight-determining-exercise for honest racers we see every month who haven't made any HP/TQ changes to their car before they hit the post-race scales.

 

HERE"S AN IDEA....AI is already thought to be the "Modern Day Trans AM from the 60's" right???

 

What do we think about requiring folks to decal their HP/TQ on their hoods or fender tops like the 60's stock cars (ex.- 300HP/293TQ) or require the target weight to be decaled somewhere on the car?

 

This proposed rule change for 2005 could:

1) hold drivers accountable for all to see what their 9.5 target # is

2) peak interest & competitor comparison for John Q. Public

3) reinforce a retro-look-feel-concept to our cars

4) make the impound scale process more smooth...the 9.5 is the backbone of the series after all.

5) reinforce the requirement to re-dyno when changes are made to the engine which would affect HP/TQ (making your car hood/fender decals inaccurate now).

6) provide a higher sense of ethics for each driver if his/her "advertised" HP/TQ or minimum weights are out there for the world to see instead of buried in his/her logbook dyno sheet....Hoping the directors or tech inspectors don't ask for it this month. (It's harder to hide a lie if it's staring you in the face every time you approach your car.) ....OK...#6 might be stretching it a bit, but you get the point.

 

I'd like to see it and think it adds value to the series...any thoughts???

 

-=- Todd Covini

 

PS- Sorry for the long post! It's been on my mind for some time and I was glad to see the 9.5 questions being posed.

[mwilson7]

Todd,

 

The hp/tq is not fixed so it can be changed between races if you want but you are supposed to provide a dyno sheet which shows the current hp/tq. I like the idea of putting the weights on the windshield before going over the scales but I am assuming that you put two weights then (one of hp and one for tq) or do you just do the lowest weight for either one.

 

Bottom line is we need dyno's at the track to really make this process work.

[Jim P.]

HERE"S AN IDEA....AI is already thought to be the "Modern Day Trans AM from the 60's" right???

 

What do we think about requiring folks to decal their HP/TQ on their hoods or fender tops like the 60's stock cars (ex.- 300HP/293TQ) or require the target weight to be decaled somewhere on the car?

-=- Todd Covini

 

Todd's got a great idea there - I always thought it was cool to see the HP/TQ and/or CU.IN or L size posted clearly on the car in the 60's - that way everyone knows what the cars have, the spectators can identify with certain drivers because 'my car has the same as mark wilsons'!

 

Not only is it a great way to enforce the rules, but it is a great marketing bonus for anyone trying to understand the series.

 

As far as a dyno at the event, I agree, but it shouldn't be at every race, it should only make surprise appearances every now and then to keep racers honest...

[Admiral]

I also like the HP/TQ and Cubic inch numbers from the old days idea. Problem is that if the driver makes a change, then new decals must be applied along with the new dyno sheet. Sometimes that isn't easily accomplished between races (I know I don't have access to overnight decals). I don't want to vote "NO" because I like the idea. I also think spectators might really like the idea!

 

People in the pits who are considering the series or class would be more interested if they knew that the motor they are looking at was putting out a certain RWHP or RWTQ, I know I would like to see the numbers displayed on the cars, in some standard format decals, not a mixed bag of everyone's version - like the windshield banners, make them all look the same in font and size please. Just my $.02 here.

[Ed M.]

As a future AI racer, I think the HP/TQ specs on the hood or wherever is a GREAT idea. It would get my vote.

[Guest]

As a future AI racer, I think the HP/TQ specs on the hood or wherever is a GREAT idea. It would get my vote.

 

Like wilson mentioned,they are not constant. If you want to make your car heavy for one track and swap some parts to get more power you can do it. I would not mind seeing it on a sticker on the windsheild that can be scraped off after every event. Or just have the AI director available with the information all weekend long.

[Ryan F.]

As Jim said "As far as a dyno at the event, I agree, but it shouldn't be at every race, it should only make surprise appearances every now and then to keep racers honest..."

 

The above statement is the basic principle. Most people tend to stay honest if they don't know with any certainty what is going to happen. That premise means that you better be prepared because it could happen at any point. This is club racing and if someone is hell bent on cheating they can probably find a way to get around any set of rules (in any class). Having a Dyno trackside sure makes the threat of checking more prevalent. That being said, if any car is walking away from the pack or a competitor wants to file a mechanical protest (in the CCR) to get a car checked, then that car can be sealed post race and dynoed after the weekend if a Dyno is not trackside. All of the AI group leaders should be prepared to make that happen if needed.

 

It is sad to think that someone would intentionally cheat for a win in a series which is supposed to be centered around the fun and enjoyment of ponycar racing but we all know those people do exist. Thus, the top AI cars should be run on a dyno many times throughout the season to make all the competitors confident that the fastest cars are in compliance. It is also important to check performance items that are not power related such as total ballast, track width, ride height, adjustable timing controls, etc.

 

The power and weight of any car should not be a secret. It is fair to know what you are racing against and a competitor should be entitled to see another cars weight and dyno sheet if they like. You may not be told how they are making that combo work but at least you can see what combination is going up against you.

 

Thanks for the good questions.

[mwilson7]

The power and weight of any car should not be a secret. It is fair to know what you are racing against and a competitor should be entitled to see another cars weight and dyno sheet if they like. You may not be told how they are making that combo work but at least you can see what combination is going up against you.

 

Thanks for the good questions.

 

Thanks for chiming in Ryan. Apparently not everyone shares you idea of allowing hp, tq and weight to be public knowledge so if you could perhaps forward a note to all AI and Regional Directors stating this is would be appreciated. Reading the rules it says that the dyno runs may be viewed by anyone but it doesn't come out and state that this information is public knowledge.