Red Tornado Posted October 20, 2007 Share Posted October 20, 2007 First off let me just say the MId-Ohio national championship crowns the national champion. So this means- 2008 National Champion 2008 Series Champion (or perhaps East and West Coast series) National Series Idea: 5-6 Weekend Events across the country and Nationals counts as double points event. 8 Best Scores give total points and series champion (so 4 weekends) and ties get normal rules applying. Maybe have the local event count as triple points for that region. 5-6 Events maybe include tracks like - Infineon, Texas Motor Speedway, Road Atlanta, VIR, Mid-Ohio, etc.. Or if travel seems unrealistic than have a East Coast and West Championship series. Now that would be cool before national championship. I don't know about anyone else but that could certainly make for some huge fields and fun weekends as well as help sponsors,etc.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b_tone Posted October 20, 2007 Share Posted October 20, 2007 That would be hugely expensive, and with the fact that there is a National Championship I don't see the point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Matt Posted October 20, 2007 Share Posted October 20, 2007 Or if travel seems unrealistic than have a East Coast and West Championship series. Now that would be cool before national championship. I don't know about anyone else but that could certainly make for some huge fields and fun weekends as well as help sponsors,etc.. This has been tried before, as recently as 2005 with an AI East Coast/Midwest championship, and went nowhere. The problem is that there are very few racers with the time or budget to make all the events when they are scattered across a large geographical region. It's hard enough for most people to make all the events in their own region. It seems like a good idea when you're kicking it around, but when you really start looking at the realities, I don't think there is much of a market for a semi-pro series that fits in between NASA/SCCA and World Challenge/Grand Am--just look at AV8SS, which has hardly flourished. It takes huge financial resources to commit to something like this, both on the part of the sanctioning body and the participants. I think the creation of the NASA National Championships was a huge step for NASA and that will probably remain the focus for the foreseeable future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philstireservice Posted October 21, 2007 Share Posted October 21, 2007 I would like to see a little more qualifications to make the Nationals. Require at least the top 5 in points or something of that nature. But, I also realize that NASA needs participation, at least in the beginning, to put on an event like this. just my 2 cents Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Tornado Posted October 21, 2007 Author Share Posted October 21, 2007 Agree. The above idea was more based on getting high turnout levels and sparking more interest. We are starting to average 10 cars an event now in SE and next year will likely have a few more as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onralz Posted October 22, 2007 Share Posted October 22, 2007 I would like to see a little more qualifications to make the Nationals. Require at least the top 5 in points or something of that nature. But, I also realize that NASA needs participation, at least in the beginning, to put on an event like this. just my 2 cents That would take some people (like me) out of the equation for Nationals. I just don't have the time to try to make enough events to attempt that. It would also cause other issues. One like planning for Nationals like we do now. If I don't know if I'm going to be going, do I take off a week for it? Do I get reservations setup for it? Do I get my friends, family, crew to take off time to help me? Some vacation times in some businesses have to be requested quite early. Folks that have to travel from the West coast would even need more time ahead for the heavy burden of transportation from such a huge distance. Not a good idea in my opinion. It's not broke, don't fix it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swhiteh3 Posted October 22, 2007 Share Posted October 22, 2007 I agree with Mark. Requiring more events to qualify for Nationals will lock in drivers who have the resources to attend more events, and lock out some very fast drivers who might not have the money or vacation time to attend every event. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney Posted October 22, 2007 Share Posted October 22, 2007 I say let everyone come that wants to make the tow. If a group gets over the threshhold for the track, then use a qualifying format to thin the herd for the main. Right now, other than SM, we are quite a ways from that. I do like the idea for a National Series that take advantage of the premier tracks that NASA Regions race at but it should not effect the National Championships or attendance at regular regional races. Sidney Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renntag Posted October 22, 2007 Share Posted October 22, 2007 I agree with Phil's idea, but also understand that NASA needs good turn out to put on such a large event. Limiting the pool to the top drivers in points, shrinks the pool to those drivers that are going to every regional event. I know some people that skip a few regionals to make National finals. I like the last poster's comment that qualifying races can be utilized to thin the field for the final race when numbers are too high. This is a good topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Matt Posted October 22, 2007 Share Posted October 22, 2007 This ain't NASCAR. Nobody wants to make all those plans, spend all that money and take all that time to show up and not run in the big show. Mid-Ohio can handle plenty of cars on track in a run group and most of the classes are pretty far from the limit. When and if it becomes a problem, NASA will be quite be quite happy to deal with the problem of having too many cars wanting to enter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renntag Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 No one wants to go through the trouble of going to nationals and get taken out by someone on the first day either....but it happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Matt Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 Yeah, but that still doesn't make qualifying to get into the championship race a good idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbodleimages Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 I am with Chris on this and with phil's tire as well. 1. Some regions have guys like Chris Desalvo who win ALL the races. He has little competition at the regional level. Beau Dunnivant is probably in the same catagory. I am not sure how much of a challenge the SE races are for Chris and I know it sucks knowing that the rest of us are racing for 2nd each week. 2. At somepoint the quality of entries in the nationals will reach of level of skill that some lesser experienced or part time won't belong in that race. Its a safety issue. Its not like that now, but given the growth rate, it will at some point. 3. I live someplace where the closest track(VIR) is NOT in my region. Also inside a twelve hour haul from my home are great tracks like Sebring, Summit Point, and the new NJ track. At present there is no provision for competitors like Chris who is looking for competition and like me who would like to race more race tracks. This is a hole in the NASA system. In SCCA their southeast division includes VIR and Sebring as well as the other NASA-SE tracks. IT also allows points from an outside of the region event. SCCA has many holes, but this is a hole they have covered. I look at NASA-SE and NASA-MA and see SE with a big AI turn out and a few CMC cars and MA with a few AI cars and a full CMC turn out. I see Florida needing racers in general. You would think that a race that was able to combine those assets would be wonderful and would be a natural. The southern regions can run races while the northern areas are shut down by cold weather. I would think that some kind of national program would be very inviting to guys in NE and the upper midwest who could get an early or late year race in at Sebring or Savannah or Birmingham or Houston. Maybe its time to split NASAPRORACING away from the regional level. Make it divisional or national in nature. Why not take the regional schedules and then schedule races independantly? OR...have a regional points champion based on a minimum number of finishes and east coast/west coast points championship based on regional points plus 4 out of region races with are counted for double points? Then the top 5 east coast/west coast earn some insentive at the nationals as well as the top 3 in regional points. Everyone is invited to the nationals but the points leaders are, say,...automitically qualified for the championship race or some such. There should be away to better the racing and the schedule in such a way that it promotes and increases race entries for the regions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Matt Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 Maybe its time to split NASAPRORACING away from the regional level. Make it divisional or national in nature. Why not take the regional schedules and then schedule races independantly? The biggest problem with these ideas, which are not bad, is that NASA is a business, not a club. I've discussed some similar concepts with regional directors and the objections always come back to money. Anything that is perceived to reduce entries in any particular region's events, and hence money out of that region's pocket, is difficult to build concensus around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMan Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 (edited) For those who clamor for 'race-only' event weekends, I see joint-region events (like you say) as prolly the only way to do that and make it profitable (or potentially profitable). Its all a numbers game, of course. I would be all over a, say, joint -SE/-MA race-only weekend at VIR, or RA, or some such. A lot of work, and as usual track dates will always be an issue. But I think it would draw a lot of racers out who might not otherwise attend a single-region event, esp if they knew the series competition would be that much more intense (drawing from 2 regions, or more). Would love to see 15+ cars in every class! however, I dont know all the $$$ issues involved in such stuff so I cant comment there. Matt (again!) is exactly right--NASA intends to make money for its franchise-holders (regions). This can cut both ways..its commendably responsive to the customers, but it also is understandably reluctant to make moves that cut its margin. YMMV Edited October 23, 2007 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbodleimages Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 I realize that. Not question that destinction is something of a flaw in the program, an obstical to make things better. The way to make the regional businesses happy is to make it a win for them as failure to improve the situation as it grows can be a lose for them. The way to make it work is to design it in such a way that it encourages participation by outside of region drivers while not encouraging drivers to then skip a in region event as a result. I think that can be done. I also think that a racer only weekend now and then would be a good thing as the racer base grows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renntag Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 I raced motorcycles for almost 7 years and we had "national" level races where points counted double. That made everyone far more motivated to make the national level events in their region and possibly to venture to other regions as well. Invitations to the finals were sent out based on points standing. You had to qualify for the grid by garnering points all season. If there is any way to bridge the divide between franchise earnings and what competitors want, ie larger combined fields during the season, this should really be looked into. FWIW, not having the HPDE portion of the event is really going to cut into the bottom line. That will be difficult to take out of the equation. I would like to see a joint MA/SE event and possibly one to include Fla and NE. There HAS to be some way to share the burden and earnings such that it works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 This could have been done in 2007: Feb. VIR 23-25 Mid Atlantic Mar. Road Atlanta 17-18 South East April May Watkins Glen 7-8 North East June Sebring 23-24 Florida July Mid-Ohio 14-15 Oh/In Aug. Road America 4-5 Midwest Sept. NASA Nationals Mid-Ohio Oct. Barber 13-14 Southeast I'm sure some kind of schedule west of the Mississippi could have been done also. Just looking for an excuse to get fields like Nationals at other tracks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Matt Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 It would be awesome to have 15-20 cars in class at all those tracks, but how many people would have been able to spend the time and money to make all those events? What I proposed to regional leadership last year, and will probably propose again for 2008 once a schedule is announced, is a combined Ohio-Indiana and Midwest regional CMC championship that draws from events held in each region, including cross-overs. I had it all figured out last year, but then there were some last-minute schedule changes that blew it up so I dropped the idea. In short, what I proposed combines all the events from each of the two regional schedules, makes the cross-overs mandatory points-paying events for the combined championship, and then allows races from each home region to be brought into the combined series points. Drops are adjusted for the total number of eligible events. The more cross-over events between the two regions, the easier it is to coordinate, but basically you would be able to bring points in from 2 or 3 races in your home region that are not part of the combined championship schedule similar to the way SCCA Divisional championships allow you to bring up to two out of Division results into the home Division. Depending on the schedules, it might require a racer to travel to an event outside his or her home region in order to attend the maximum number of events in the combined championship. Alternately, someone might skip a home region race to run an event in the other region. These situations are where the sticking point is regarding the business vs. club arrangement. My goal with this plan is to increase the fields at certain key events by increasing the incentive to run them, the incentive being a more meaningful year-end combined championship title. I think something like this could work in these two regions because of the reasonably close proximity of all the tracks and the fact that we already have a couple of cross-over events between the regions on the schedule. We'll see if it makes any sense to float this out for real once the schedules are released. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nape Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 (edited) At present there is no provision for competitors like Chris who is looking for competition and like me who would like to race more race tracks. Have him run the other region events for snicks and grins? Run two regions to make it harder on himself? I'll have to agree with Matt on this one. You guys are trying to fix something that isn't broken. If I wanted to run with SCCA's division/region/whatever points scenario, I'd probably go run SCCA... If you want cross-over events for more car counts, talk to your region directors to see what they can come up with. Sharing the profits probably sucks, but sharing the burden if it doesn't break even has to be nice. This could have been done in 2007: Feb. VIR 23-25 Mid Atlantic Mar. Road Atlanta 17-18 South East April May Watkins Glen 7-8 North East June Sebring 23-24 Florida July Mid-Ohio 14-15 Oh/In Aug. Road America 4-5 Midwest Sept. NASA Nationals Mid-Ohio Oct. Barber 13-14 Southeast I'm sure some kind of schedule west of the Mississippi could have been done also. Just looking for an excuse to get fields like Nationals at other tracks. That sure would be a cool schedule, but how many people could commit the time/money to do all that traveling? There's at least 4 races on there that would need to be Friday & Monday off work deals just for drive time. Edited October 23, 2007 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbodleimages Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 Just from my perspective in the South East the travel on that schedule doesn't bother me. From where I am and to just run SE... Starke, FL (12 hours) Road Atlanta(8.5 hours) CMP (5.5 hours) Roebling Road (6 hours) Barber Motorsports Park(12 hours) Out of my region... Sebring (12 hours) Summit Point(8 hours) VIR(3.5 hours) Watkins Glen(11.7 hours) MidOhio (12 hours) Elkart Lake, WI (18 hours) For me only Road America is more than a 12 hour pull. Since I already travel 12 hours for tracks inside my region, a travel hour haul for something special is no issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Tornado Posted October 24, 2007 Author Share Posted October 24, 2007 Some real good discusion. I wonder if the easy answer is just allow each division to have 1 or 2 double point events (like SCCA does with national weekends to some extent) and allow you to count a cross over region event or two for your regional points. Seperately southeast competition was tight in a number of events. Will and I split several weekends and Landon took me also so as for competition I certainly feel it locally. I just loved a 20+ car field at nationals. For folks that were there I am sure you can relate in saying regardless of where you finished it was a lot of fun. Maybe a good solution is allowing 1 cross over event to count regionally and determining 1 event per region a year. For SE that may mean a VIR and Road Atlanta cross-over as an example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbodleimages Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 You are humble. I appreciate that. Just the same.... I think something should be done around Sebring since Florida needs race cars. VIR is great, but they seem to have 60-70 car run groups already. Road Atlanta is full as well. I suggest that Summit Point and Roebling Road or High Rock be used for the cross over event. Those venues can handle added race traffic and the regions themselves would likely approve something to market those 2nd tier venues a little more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nape Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 For me only Road America is more than a 12 hour pull. Since I already travel 12 hours for tracks inside my region, a travel hour haul for something special is no issue. That's really cool that you have the ability to do that and I guess I'm lucky to not have to travel that much. Autobahn Country Club (.5 hour) Blackhawk Farms (2 hours) Gingerman (2 hours) Graatan (3 hours) Putnam Park (3.5 hours) Road America (3.5 hours) Iowa Speedway (6 hours?) Mid-Ohio (6.5 hours) Mid-America (10 hours) Missing work and losing out on money to go racing doesn't make sense. So, my crew (dad and brother) and I usually leave about 5pm on Friday from Chicagoland. Anything longer then 6 hours makes for a long weekend trying to catch up on sleep. Anyway, the way that Midwest and OH/IN crossovers have worked is that the points are awarded as usual and separate regions are not differentiated. Example: You run 10th in AI, but 4th from your region. You are awarded 10th place points. Region does not matter, but those points count toward your regional points race. I don't know if you necessarily need any incentive to get people to a crossover event since it's already a points race for both regions and most people want to race with more cars anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnett Posted October 26, 2007 Share Posted October 26, 2007 Well, I've considered this for a couple of years now. I think that if others showed some interest in this my decision would be easy. If the 2008 dates are similar......LETS DO IT. We'll know who won. Feb. VIR 23-25 Mid Atlantic Mar. Road Atlanta 17-18 South East April Sebring [Camp STEEDA event with SVTOA] Florida make this happen. May Watkins Glen 7-8 North East June Sebring 23-24 Florida July Mid-Ohio 14-15 Oh/In Aug. Road America 4-5 Midwest Sept. NASA Nationals Mid-Ohio Oct. Barber 13-14 Southeast 9 weekends with this much travel is a lot so say only 6 or 7 count. I want to do this, NEW, DIFFERENT, FUN! When are all of the scheduels out? Robin #21 Steeda Stang Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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