wow...18" wheels

[robbodleimages]

Time for everyone to start buying wheels and brake upgrades!!

 

anyone want some 17" CCWs?

[ST#97]

How bout' you go suck a donkey.

 

This rule is f'n stupid...there. I've said what 50 others are thinking while only 4 or 5 are pissing their pants in joy.

 

Anyone else care to chime in?!

[Red Tornado]

I wish I knew that before $2k plus investment in rims recently.

 

The key here is what size is the spec toyo then??

 

This rule change seemed to pop up out of no where based on forum discussions. I think in long run it will help but just wish I hadn't spent the money as would have gone with 18 ccw's then.

[Grizlbits]

Don't get too excited. Toyo list price is over $100 more per tire, (yes over $400 more per set! ) and the diameter is actually smaller by .1", so the footprint is no bigger, smaller radially actually. Width is the same.

 

This is for the guys who have heavy cars and need 14" brakes (and more rotating mass with the rotors too ). It will also allow future cars into the series without downgrading the wheels from stock.

[robbodleimages]

97, I surely hope you are not directing that Donkey comment at me.

 

I am with Chris(Tornado). I have a fresh set ot 17x9.5 CCW's with one weekend on them and I just bought a set of Cobra R's from the afore mentioned Chris who's only use is in AI for me.

 

I now have 16 17's and 18" is the order of the day.

 

Reading between the lines is the Cadillac and the S197 Mustang are 18" wheel cars(I think) and I think they want to encourage them.

 

I am glad that I haven't taken delivery of my new brake kit just yet. I will have to call and see about upgrading two mustangs from 13" to 14" since that seems to be what this is about.

[swhiteh3]

While 18" wheels on their own seems like no advantage, the gain that comes with 14" brakes vs 13" brakes is massive. (Have 14" brakes always been allowed, and we simply knew that realistically we could only fit 13" brakes under 17" wheels?, or is this indeed a rule change as well?) I've gone back and forth between 13s and 14s with the SN95 Grand-Am Cup cars, and I'm well aware of the advantages that come with them. They're more than significant.

 

I'm not sure what cars "require" 18" wheels or 14" brakes. It's too bad this topic was not brought up for comment on the board.

 

S197s are perfectly capable with 17" wheels and 13" brakes, as has been proven by the current crop of cars in the field. This sounds like a rule specifically aimed at getting CTS-Vs in the field, but it's a shame it's going to cost the rest of the field a lot of money. If wheel selection is a problem, then I'd be more than happy allowing one car make to run 18s, or even everyone to run 18s, but the change in the brake rule (if I'm correct in my statement above) is a major change in the capabilities of our cars.

[ST#97]

97, I surely hope you are not directing that Donkey comment at me.

 

Yep! Thought I was crystal clear...? No need to congratulate a stupid rule to accomodate 4 cars. Just because some people choose a platform that is pig heavy and can't afford to get the car down to weight, WE, the rest of the racers are now forced to pony up the cost of new equipment. REDICULOUS!

 

Why on earth have we worked to a 2700lb minimum weight and now offer the easy way out for cars in the 3400-3800lb range that now drives the cost of being competitive up yet again? Show me another series that rewards poor engineering by penalizing the rest of the racers in the group.

 

Maybe we should only have the big brake handicap for cars over 3400lbs. No need for the folks that have worked their butts off to get down to 3000 or even 2700 to now have to pony up MORE MONEY. How bout' we only allow the 14" brakes and 18" wheels to those that need them if weight and braking are the issue to resolve? Arguing that you don't want the newer cars to have to change wheels or brakes from stock to be competitive is a slap in the face to the fox and f-body guys who already paid to swap better parts onto their cars to step up...

 

I seem to recall a point of discussion that NASA was going to try and rein in the rising costs of running AI....hello! 180 degree turn to support the minority.

 

John, you say this rule is to also help the upcoming cars which I am guessing are the Camaro and Challenger in coming years. Do you honestly see anyone in the series going out and buying a $40k car only to gut it and spend another $40k in developing it to race in AI? Is that where this series is going?

 

I think the silent Majority needs to chime in here because I can tell you the AI car count in our region has been extremely thin this year. More cost equals fewer cars... pretty simple.

 

Yes, I am probably speaking a little too strongly about this but I also think I am saying what 90% of the racers in this group are thinking and just won't post. We don't need an age of $70k plus AI cars. If that's the case, I am building a CMC car or going back to HPDE/instructing.

 

Grassroots motorsports....?

[nape]

WHAT. THE. CRAP.

 

Thanks for the moving target. I'm really glad I bought wheels and 17" tires to setup for next season.

 

If you're going to make 18" the new hot setup, increase the width too so we can at least buy World Challenge take-offs.

[RodeoFlyer]

being the driver of a pig-heavy S197 - the brakes are an issue. 3200lb ( maybe if Ross Murray is LUCKY) car vs a 2700lb car - both with 13" brakes - who has the advantage????

 

Im working toward running AI myself. I believe limiting the bigger brakes on a weight basis would be fair. A light fox body with 14" brakes will STILL have an advantage.

 

Costs? Personally I would like to see SLA's restricted to AIX. How do you expect new guys to come in and afford to race when an SLA kit is thousands of dollars? How many regular AIX racers are there? In AI West it's pretty much the Roco and Weber show right now. What about CMC? The fields are getting huge because the gap between them and AI is so great. As an outsider looking in I think adjustments are necessary to keep the 3 classes more evenly spaced as far as costs are concerned. The reality is that if the cars don't evolve then the classes never will either.

[Jeff F]

Someone fill me. If you have a brake setup that works and fits inside of 17's, why exactly would you want to switch to an 18" setup with the same width and OD, but with a heavier wheel and a heavier tire? Note that the brake rules haven't changed, and you can fit 14" brakes inside of a 17" wheel on a Fox or SN95.

 

If you'd take off your tinfoil hats and think about it, you'd realize that the 18" isn't an advantage.

[RodeoFlyer]

none of the available brake kits for S197's fit in a 17" wheel - been there researched that - paying for 18" tires is gonna SUCK - but that's the way it is unfortunately

[nape]

being the driver of a pig-heavy S197 - the brakes are an issue. 3200lb ( maybe if Ross Murray is LUCKY) car vs a 2700lb car - both with 13" brakes - who has the advantage????

 

The Fox, but no one put a gun to your head to build a S197.

 

I can't believe all these S197s are so heavy and that you can't lighten them up. I built a 2950lb 3rd gen GM, which people said wasn't likely, in my parent's 2 car garage with a 4" grinder, a spot weld cutter, and my brain. The only weight reduction I bought was a fiberglass hood.

 

You can buy a lot of weight reduction for what a set of 18" wheels cost.

 

PS- and since when is 3200lbs pig heavy? Sidney Franklin was running in the 6th Friday and top 5 (until the wreck) Saturday at Nationals in a 3160lb car with 12" x 1.1" rotors. Doesn't anyone know how to conserve the equipment anymore?

[RodeoFlyer]

because all the weight in the car is stuff you cant cut out

 

Unfortunately the foxes aren't going to be rellevant forever. Once upon a time 65-66's were cheap and everywhere- not so much now. To buy an S197, gut it, and prep it - you're really not going to spend THAT much more than starting from scratch with a fox - i've crunched the numbers.

[robbodleimages]

97, I surely hope you are not directing that Donkey comment at me.

 

Yep! Thought I was crystal clear...? No need to congratulate a stupid rule to accomodate 4 cars. Just because some people choose a platform that is pig heavy and can't afford to get the car down to weight, WE, the rest of the racers are now forced to pony up the cost of new equipment. REDICULOUS!

 

I think you need to slow down. Where did I congratulate anything? I understand we can read written words with our own perspective, but WOW does not equal Whoopie.

 

Change: My '95 R is 3150 empty. I don't think 3200 is an pig heavy.

[AI Coupe Driver]

I'm looking at my next AI Fox front brake set-up. Now running 17's with the Cobra 13" 2 piston set-up. OK but could be WAY better.

If any of you are looking to unload your 4 to 6 piston calipers for 13" discs to move to the 14's please let me know.

Thanks.

Ron Eisner

[email protected]

cell 614-638-3938

[ST#97]

 

I think you need to slow down. Where did I congratulate anything? I understand we can read written words with our own perspective, but WOW does not equal Whoopie.

 

Change: My '95 R is 3150 empty. I don't think 3200 is an pig heavy.

 

I agree, it was a harsh reaction. sorry. However, has anyone given any thought to the fact Toyo is yet to release a 275/40/17 in the R888 which is to be our spec series tire soon? Is Toyo going to force us to 18" tires?

 

I still don't get the point of 18" wheels if it's rewarding poor choices in car builds or lack of engineering on the part of folks CHOOSING to run and S197 or "heavy pig"

 

And for some more info, we have 2 S197's pushing 3600 lbs in our region and they seem to be doing fine while in compliance with the 2006/2007 rules sets. edit: Actually, one is 3600, the other is about 3200 and he is running a 351 windsor.

 

So, let's say this rule stays. What wheels are out there in 18" that Mustangs can run...? Costs? How about F-bodies? Cost? Best I can tell is the cheapest 18" wheels we can run would be the FR500's and the 2000R wheels...both start at $1000/set and I would prefer to have 3 sets as I do now. So there is $3k for wheels, $3k for tires and what, another $2k for the brakes? $8k? I can build a CMC car for that much money!

 

Hope Toyo increases the payouts for Toyo bucks!!!!

 

I think where everyone is in agreement is that this is a "circus tent" size solution to fix a problem that could have been solved with a small band-aid....?

[JWL]

Guys-

 

Fair enough and I'm glad to see the discuss. We can reconsider, so hold off buying the big wheels and brakes for a moment. Since this change was made to accomodate heavier cars needing some more brake (4G F-bod, CTS, S197, GTO), how about a breaking point on weight where 14's are allowed?

 

-JWL

[donovan]

I don't like the idea of 14" brakes or 18" wheels..., so keeping everyone for jumping and spending $5-$6K on new wheels, tires and brakes... maybe setting a weight minumum for the new combo...

 

You said it was for the heavy cars... how about 3500+ cars can run them?

 

DD

[Jeff F]

Fair enough and I'm glad to see the discuss. We can reconsider, so hold off buying the big wheels and brakes for a moment. Since this change was made to accomodate heavier cars needing some more brake (4G F-bod, CTS, S197, GTO), how about a breaking point on weight where 14's are allowed?

Watch it there, cowboy. The 14" brakes are already legal. There are already numerous cars running around on Stoptech 14's which would then be made illegal if you changed the rule to only allow 14's on certain cars.

 

What the Chicken-Littles are missing is that THERE IS NO PERFORMANCE ADVANTAGE TO RUNNING AN 18. On some cars, like the S197, it will allow you fit the 14" brake size that is already legal-- but on a Fox or a SN95 you can fit a 14" brake inside of a 17" wheel, and switching to an 18" would do nothing more than make your car heavier.

[donovan]

One could argue that the smaller sidewall would make the car turn in better, or more crisp... thus, performance advantage...

 

or you could run the 18's up front for a better turn in, and 17's in the rear for a better bite off the corners... the 18 Front 17 rear could be the Hot ticket. Its already being done in some autocross events!

 

DD

Edited November 1, 2007 by Guest

[Grizlbits]

Hey Jeff,

 

How many guys in the top 10 where running 14" rotors?

 

Personally, my car carries more speed than an AI car, and I can lock up a tire with the best of them with 13" rotors & Stop-Techs. I think the quality of the calipers are more important than the diameter of the rotor. If your having brake problems, ditch the PBR's for Stop-Techs or similar quality calipers and your problems will go away if you have good ducting.

 

This is all perception guys, just like the 05 Mustang being a class killer. It isn't, just as the 14" rotor is not a class killer either. I hate to tell you this but... THE 14" ROTOR & 18" WHEEL IS NOT A MAGIC BULLET TO MAKE YOUR CAR FASTER. YOU STILL NEED TO DRIVE IT.

[swhiteh3]

How many AI cars right now run 14" brakes under 17" wheels? I didn't know of a single one, but I certainly could be mistaken. I'd like to know what wheel they're running, and what brake kit.

[ST#97]

I hate to tell you this but... THE 14" ROTOR & 18" WHEEL IS NOT A MAGIC BULLET TO MAKE YOUR CAR FASTER. YOU STILL NEED TO DRIVE IT.

 

Agreed, Porches are supposed to be faster than our cars but 99% of the time aren't!

 

The magic bullet would be a 2800 lb car, a good driver..with money, 14" brakes and 18" wheels. I would love to be that guy but let's not start making the driver's wallet the key point of competition. I realize there is always going to be someone willing to spend Twice what I do for racing budgets but looking at the current crop of racers in AI across the nation...I don't see a bunch of drivers standing in line to go spend another $6 to 8k to keep up.

 

For those that know how to put 14" brakes in 17" wheel, please post up how its done!

 

Thanks!

[JWL]

I too am intrigued by the idea of a 14 incher in a 17 wheel. Jeff, where are these? I had a sleepness night due to all the little goblins running around the neighborhood and in my head, so I spent time on the iNtaRweB looking and couldn't find a single one. If the 14 can already fit in a 17, then the 18/14 is not a shocker at all and is just being made more widely available.

 

Again, happy to see the discussion and let's see where it leads. We will solve this today and be final tomorrow so get your licks in now.

 

-JWL

[ST#97]

I too am intrigued by the idea of a 14 incher in a 17 wheel. Jeff, where are these? I had a sleepness night due to all the little goblins running around the neighborhood and in my head, so I spent time on the iNtaRweB looking and couldn't find a single one. If the 14 can already fit in a 17, then the 18/14 is not a shocker at all and is just being made more widely available.

 

Again, happy to see the discussion and let's see where it leads. We will solve this today and be final tomorrow so get your licks in now.

 

-JWL

 

I hope it's just a myth... I know a few guys in our region running 13" stoptechs that are grinding on the calipers to get them to fit...can't imagine a 14" setup in the same wheels!