Jump to content

wow...18" wheels


robbodleimages

Recommended Posts

I hope it's just a myth... I know a few guys in our region running 13" stoptechs that are grinding on the calipers to get them to fit...can't imagine a 14" setup in the same wheels!

 

My Stop Tech's fit without grinding on 17's: Centerline, CCW's and some other P.O.S. wheels that I have for my rains. I almost had enough room on the CCW's for 14's, but not quite. I ended up getting rid of all the 17 except the rains, but the 14" rotor was really close on the CCW's FYI.

 

It also depends on how much spcer you are running. I use 1".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I too am intrigued by the idea of a 14 incher in a 17 wheel. Jeff, where are these? I had a sleepness night due to all the little goblins running around the neighborhood and in my head, so I spent time on the iNtaRweB looking and couldn't find a single one. If the 14 can already fit in a 17, then the 18/14 is not a shocker at all and is just being made more widely available.

 

Again, happy to see the discussion and let's see where it leads. We will solve this today and be final tomorrow so get your licks in now.

 

-JWL

 

Coincidentally, I was looking for this particular thread on one of my Cobra R boards last night.

 

Below are photos of the 14" Brembo inside 17" CCW's

14bremboaa0.jpg

17ccw14brembo2ll5.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Interesting discovery. Appalachian Tire prices the 275/40-17 RA1 at $208 shaved. The 275/35-18 at $317. The $275/35-17 R888 is already available and priced at $358 shaved.

 

The 275/40-17 Hoosier R6 is listed at $263. The 275/35-18 at $282.

Tirerack.com has the New BFG R1 for $251(17) and $269(18).

The Kumho V710 is $225 and $290(for a 285/35-18).

 

The price increase for Toyo tires going from 17 to 18" is FAR greater than the other available DOT tires. It makes you think about the future.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Interesting discovery. Appalachian Tire prices the 275/40-17 RA1 at $208 shaved. The 275/35-18 at $317. The $275/35-17 R888 is already available and priced at $358 shaved....

 

Those prices for the 18" RA-1 are rediculous - Toyo needs to get a clue, or we might all be driving on Hankooks for a spec tire in 2009!

 

It seems to me that this 18" rule was not well thought out, nor were we given the ooportunity to properly discuss it.

 

Regardless of the real performance issues, it seems clear that it is going to upset a lot more people than it will make happy in the short term. It certainly doesn't please us after just spending big bucks on 13" brakes and 17" wheels for our newly built AI SN95.

 

While a weight limit might work, I would like to see the 18" wheel rule pulled for the 08 season to allow it to be thoroughly discussed and researched before being introduced in suitably modified form for 2009. If there are any new builds underway of cars that specifically need this and will compete in AI in 08 - that is CTS-V - then they could be granted permission to use 18" wheels on a case by case basis. We already know that S197 AI cars work just fine on 13" brake systems, and it's very easy and affordable to put such a system together - so I don't see a valid argument here?

 

If the rule stands with a weight limit addendum - make it 3400lbs and above.

 

Either way, if anyone can justify switching to 18" wheels, 14" brakes, and $300 a peice tires, have at it - we'll still whoop you with our 17" setup!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Interesting discovery. Appalachian Tire prices the 275/40-17 RA1 at $208 shaved. The 275/35-18 at $317. The $275/35-17 R888 is already available and priced at $358 shaved....

 

Those prices for the 18" RA-1 are rediculous - Toyo needs to get a clue, or we might all be driving on Hankooks for a spec tire in 2009!

 

It seems to me that this 18" rule was not well thought out, nor were we given the ooportunity to properly discuss it.

 

Regardless of the real performance issues, it seems clear that it is going to upset a lot more people than it will make happy in the short term. It certainly doesn't please us after just spending big bucks on 13" brakes and 17" wheels for our newly built AI SN95.

 

While a weight limit might work, I would like to see the 18" wheel rule pulled for the 08 season to allow it to be thoroughly discussed and researched before being introduced in suitably modified form for 2009. If there are any new builds underway of cars that specifically need this and will compete in AI in 08 - that is CTS-V - then they could be granted permission to use 18" wheels on a case by case basis. We already know that S197 AI cars work just fine on 13" brake systems, and it's very easy and affordable to put such a system together - so I don't see a valid argument here?

 

If the rule stands with a weight limit addendum - make it 3400lbs and above.

 

Either way, if anyone can justify switching to 18" wheels, 14" brakes, and $300 a peice tires, have at it - we'll still whoop you with our 17" setup!

 

Well put Daron. Sometimes I wish I had your calm, cool candor!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'd rather see a weight penalty than a simple over/under number. For instance, if you have a 3600# car, and you need to run 14" brakes, then you get a 150# penalty and get HP and TQ as if you weighed 3450#. Maybe a 100# penalty is more accurate - I'm not sure. You could of course adjust this penalty as time goes on.

 

As many have said, I have no problem with people running 18" wheels if they want to - I see no advantage to it - but I have yet to hear of a seriously campaigned car with 14" brakes. I had *ASSUMED* no one was doing this because of the fitment issues. Assuming there are none out there, we should reign in the rule now, before we have to grandfather cars in or force people to buy smaller brakes.

 

I understand there are numerous people who want to run 14" brakes next year, like Jeff F, but I think it's better to catch this one in the bud. If Jeff really wants the FR500C legal as-is, and the CTS-V owners really want to not cut down their massive brakes, then I think the penalty assessed above is a reasonable way to let them play without forcing everyone in the class to spend big money to catch up.

 

Oh, and I've been involved in back to back testing of 13" brakes vs. 14" brakes, and there IS an advantage. A quite significant one.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A couple thoughts:

It's not clear to me why any car needs a larger brake advantage based on weight. You need to consider the entire package that each car is afforded. A good case can be made that the heavier cars have other advantages. Example, S197's already have a width and wheel base advantage. I assume the CTS and GTO do, as well. Being heavier may levels the field for these cars.

 

I see a huge advantage for a 2700 lb fox body with 14" brakes.

Also, 3000 lb S197 with 14" brakes may be the best, to date. No one really knows the potenial of the CTS and GTO, yet.....

 

Also, regarding the 14" brakes in the photo, what is the offset of the wheel? Is the offset needed to clear the brakes make the car to wide to run in AI with aftermarket A arms. My guess is, yes.

 

I agree, to a point with Chris, that car prep and the driver still rule the day, but that can and will change as the series matures.

 

I favor moving slowly, and getting more data and feed back before this rule change.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My car had 14 inch brembo's initially but they filled down calipers in some parts for no rubbing and was still to close for my comfort so I switched to Willwoods.

 

As a side note guys we don't run hoosiers but toyo ra1's which means less brake ability anyway due to tire not brake setup.

 

Personally I totally support and see the 18 inch rule and think just let it stand as is with no weight etc.. It is the future with new cars and yes it stinks for me to if I want to run 18's but I think it is a way to get newer cars in the running cheaper.

 

Reality is what brings in sponsors and fans are new cars or vintage racing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If your having brake problems, ditch the PBR's for Stop-Techs or similar quality calipers and your problems will go away if you have good ducting.
I don't have brake problems. And I don't have PBR's.

 

A 95 Cobra R (17x9x24mm) wheel will fit over S197 14" Brembos with ~1/8" spacer, but it will be wider than the allowed track width.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Reality is what brings in sponsors and fans are new cars or vintage racing.

 

Please. I like sponsors as much as the next guy but this is amateur racing without TV coverage. Do you think this extra possible cost will bring in any more money then from the usual aftermarket suspension shops and Toyo bucks?

 

I'll go for the rule if Toyo is going to bump the bucks to compensate for the extra cost of the 18" tires, and I'll stay on 17"s and drive the piss out of it anyway.

 

(All comments are from a knuckle dragging tradesman who hates change, especially ones that have the potential to hit the wallet.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Baer had a few 14" Alcon packages that fit genuine R58s. Not pimping them, but I know that the Griggs Racing 13.5" brake kits have extra room with R58s as well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I vote(if its a vote at all) for not allowing 18" wheels!

 

If someone(the few) can take a CTS-V or a SN197, 09 cars $$$$ and turn them into a AI car, they can buy new brake's and wheels or whatever! IMO

Link to comment
Share on other sites

After driving the GTO all last season and being heavier than most cars. I should be in favor of the new 18" wheel rule to allow the bigger brakes, but again like everyone else I just bought 3 sets of 17" wheels, used all my toyo bucks on 17" tires, and just freshed up all my 13" brake parts. $$$$$$$.

 

I think a rule such as this should be talked about first and then if it is going to be changed make the change the following season to allow everyone a season to know that the rule is changing. Not here it is.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dudes,

My 96 Camaro weighs 3380 with my 180# ass in it and I have late braked

Fox bodys. My Wilwood 6 piston 13" rotors fit nicely in 17" wheels and I think it keeps me competitive. I was against the 18" wheel rule until I realized its coming and if not this year then next year!!!! I don't beleive its a competitive advantage but a evolution. The new Challengers and Camaro's are coming and why be like S**A and live in the past???

If the S197's and new Goats start cleaning up with 18" wheels and 14"

brakes in 08 I'll be in for a possible weight penalty. Untill then I'll whip there ass's in my old beater Camaro, at least here in the Rocky Mntn Region!!!!

 

BTW, These are the opinions of a Frame Carpenter and not a professional know-it-all !!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I hope it's just a myth... I know a few guys in our region running 13" stoptechs that are grinding on the calipers to get them to fit...can't imagine a 14" setup in the same wheels!

 

I'm "that guy" in the TX region. I'm using Enki RPF1's (17x9.5) with 1/2" spacers. This combo is a trick that Jack Hidley opened me up to. The stoptech ST-45's won't fit with the Enki's without grinding on the caliper a bit. For 16.5 lbs per rim, I was willing to grind a little. I talked with a StopTech engineer about it at length, and he didn't perceive there was any issue with the areas I had to grind on...

 

Back to your regularly scheduled programming...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Folks-

 

If there is anything that the rules process has taught me, it is that perception often outstrips reality by a large margin. Throughout the history of the series, there have been many perceptions of class killer items that have never penciled out to be reality.

 

This particular issue has so far been one of those issues where the perception is perhaps skewed. When we came up with this idea, we didn’t think everyone would immediately pitch their 17 inch rims and 13 inch brakes as many are running successfully on such sizing and less with no issues of fade or lack of brake torque. However, the perception seems to be that the 18/14 combo is a must and will be required on any competitive car going forward.

 

The research we’ve done suggests that this is not correct. If a car can repeatedly lock up its brakes and not experience fade over the course of a given sprint race time, it has enough brake on board and bigger diameter rotors will only increase brake torque which will ultimately result in the same locked tire that a smaller brake can achieve. The larger rotor will dissipate heat better, but conversations held with some leading experts over the last few days suggest to us that a properly vented and ducted 13 inch brake setup will actually enjoy an advantage over a comparable 14 inch setup due to issues of rotational mass and better fitment in a given wheel. Add a larger wheel that is heavier along with a tire that is 1.5 or more pounds heavier for the same width tire and heading to the 18/14 from a well-sorted 17/13 combo does not seem so appealing. Let’s not start binning perfectly good components when the perception may be clouding the reality that is sitting in Turn One. Some of the cars competing now at the heavier weights are cooking brakes and could take advantage of a larger brake, but they too will have to overcome the increased rotational mass and the increased unsprung weight that will accompany the upgrade they seek. Many of the racers I talked to told me there was no way in hell they would ditch the effective lightweight 17/13 inch combo they have now to run something that would be more expensive and heavier. They see no need to monkey with a reasonable system and from our perspective as both directors and drivers, we don’t see it either.

 

So, while the discussion has been helpful and appreciated, the rule will stand as written and the 18’s accompanied by brakes up to 14 inches are allowed but certainly not required from rules standpoint or from a competition standpoint. Don’t forget that 2007 was the year of the 1986 Mustang in AI and I think both Chris and Jay would tell you that their cars were not mega buck builds. Careful preparation of both driver and car are key-buying truckloads of big dollar parts won’t get it done if you aren’t minding the fundamentals and tightening the loose nut behind the wheel. So, let’s get this behind us, agree to disagree in some cases, and look forward to an off season that hopefully brings us all the best of everything that is not on the track.

 

-JWL

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So for the couple of folks supporting 18" tires for the "newer" and "soon to be here" cars, if we are to give them an advantage to get them in the series, and this is truly and evolution to newer cars, you do realize your costs to race and be competitive in AI just skyrocketed right? I am not talking $8k to upgrade your existing car, but you are going to have to build one of those cars TOO!!!

 

Looks like the fox stang and 3rd gen F-bodies are about to become obsolete?

 

Talk about slippery slope!!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Concentrate on improving what you have in small increments. This will make the car faster. There are only 4 little patches of rubber on the pavement that we have to work with. Spend money on driving instruction. This will make the driver faster. I spent $300 on a Friday Mid-Ohio school and dropped my lap times .5-1 second. That was the fastest money I have spent so far.

The shape of the car or the model year are as important as the color (not very).

My little white ’86 will be 23 year old next year. I am sticking with it for now.

I am looking at thicker rotors however. The biggest hurdle to winning in American Iron is finishing the race.

 

Let the new cars come and play.

 

Jay Andrew

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The biggest hurdle to winning in American Iron is finishing the race.

 

Poor, poor Mark Luna.

 

Great post though, Jay.

 

My initial reaction to 18's was also "escalation". However, seems pretty clear to me now that 18's are just an option only for those who might need them. I can't believe anyone would need any more brake than RayBob's 6-piston bro-brakes on a 13!?!

 

Skip the bling-bling and beat 'em on 13"!!!

 

-=- Todd

 

PS- Any more talk of donkeys, Matt, and we'll be sure to have one for you at the 5th Annual Texas AI/CMC Awards Banquet and World Premiere Video debut!!! <>

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There are only 4 little patches of rubber on the pavement that we have to work with. Spend money on driving instruction. This will make the driver faster. I spent $300 on a Friday Mid-Ohio school and dropped my lap times .5-1 second. That was the fastest money I have spent so far.

 

Well said, Jay.

 

This should be the mantra for all NASA drivers

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree with Jay also. Until three cars running in the fron are all the same and brand new cars with these "advantages" we should sit back and wait and see.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree with Jay also. Until three cars running in the fron are all the same and brand new cars with these "advantages" we should sit back and wait and see.

 

I realize we are beating a dead horse here....but, waiting for that to happen is just going to let the rest of AI "catch up" to this and you are back to where you started. Then 80% of the field will be on 18's and then the S197's will be asking for 305mm wide tires...

 

Seems like a pebble that is going to grow into a boulder as it rolls down the hill....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I realize we are beating a dead horse here....but, waiting for that to happen is just going to let the rest of AI "catch up" to this and you are back to where you started. Then 80% of the field will be on 18's and then the S197's will be asking for 305mm wide tires...

 

Seems like a pebble that is going to grow into a boulder as it rolls down the hill....

 

You really need to listen (comprehend) what people are saying, mainly JWL in his post. Then read it again. If you need more help, contact StopTech or another brake manufacturer and discuss the differences between a 13" and a 14" setup. Then please listen to their answers. Please do not go off half cocked without doing some research.

 

The 05 Mustang class killer is back again, oh the horror!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...