BOC- Beau Posted December 16, 2007 Share Posted December 16, 2007 Does anyone see a problem with running a FR500S in AI? There may be one running with us in'08, and I want to make sure that it will be legal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff F Posted December 16, 2007 Share Posted December 16, 2007 The only sticking point right now is the ABS module, but that should be resolved before the cars are delivered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOC- Beau Posted December 16, 2007 Author Share Posted December 16, 2007 Thanks, Jeff. I remember seeing the discussion about the ABS module. I guess it could be replaced with a stock unit if need be. How about the wing? I haven't seen any technical information on it. Does it fall within the limitations of the AI rules? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Tornado Posted December 16, 2007 Share Posted December 16, 2007 So what is a FR500s?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b_tone Posted December 16, 2007 Share Posted December 16, 2007 What about the issue of the transmission? AIX has a $6k limit for thier trans (Rule 7.9.3) and if the trans is the same as the FR500C the MSRP is $8500 (http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField=7619) putting it well above the $6k limit for AIX. This being the case does AI follow the same rule concerning enforcing the price limit? I don't see any reason why AI would be different than AIX. I know that this was ignored at the Nationals when someone ran a Koni Challenge car. If this rule is going to be enforced it will make the FR500C and FR500S both illegal. If this rule is going to be changed it opens up the series to some very high dollar transmissions (think Hollinger etc). Does anyone really want that to happen? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
99cobra2881 Posted December 16, 2007 Share Posted December 16, 2007 I'd like to know what has been done to that T56 to make it a nearly $9k transmission? From what parts/prices I've seen the FR500 parts prices are rediculously inflated accross the board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nape Posted December 16, 2007 Share Posted December 16, 2007 I'd like to know what has been done to that T56 to make it a nearly $9k transmission? From what parts/prices I've seen the FR500 parts prices are rediculously inflated accross the board. They've changed all the gear ratios in the transmission. It's now a close-ratio 6 speed (basically a close ratio T10 with two overdrives) and I'd speculate that it's been modified for WOT shifts with just a lift of the throttle (face plating?). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbrown8439 Posted December 16, 2007 Share Posted December 16, 2007 I'd speculate that it's been modified for WOT shifts with just a lift of the throttle (face plating?). No such luck. They changed the gearset and that's about it. Because of the linkage they used for the shifter it actually shifts worse than your average t56 IMO. We have ran both the FR trans and a Cobra trans in our FR500C and I would rather have a TKO600 any day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff F Posted December 17, 2007 Share Posted December 17, 2007 Beau - From the discussions I have had with JWL, the ABS module will be legal once it is made available for purchase as a catalog item. Chris - http://www.fordracingparts.com/mustang/competition5.asp Brian - it's a production Shelby GT500 TR6060 6-speed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reds Posted December 17, 2007 Share Posted December 17, 2007 Beau, that depends on who’s running the car.. If you are, then it’s definitely not legal, otherwise it might be legal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Algozine Posted December 17, 2007 Share Posted December 17, 2007 Beau - From the discussions I have had with JWL, the ABS module will be legal once it is made available for purchase as a catalog item. I'd like to have this clarified. Is it going to be legal becasue it's a Ford part, or it's going to be legal because it's an OE on a Ford production car?Not sure that a purpose built race car qualifies as Production vehicle. Is it street legal? By this definition, is a Ford motorsport aluminun block going to be legal? It's in the catalog. I'm also not sure it's worth tweeking the rules so much in order for these FR cars to be legal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney Posted December 17, 2007 Share Posted December 17, 2007 Dave, Who cares what ABS they run! Spend $75,000 on this thing and they're still going to get their ass handed to them. 325 flywheel HP ain't going to do it. I say bring them on! Sidney AI #64 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ST#97 Posted December 17, 2007 Share Posted December 17, 2007 Beau - From the discussions I have had with JWL, the ABS module will be legal once it is made available for purchase as a catalog item. I'd like to have this clarified. Is it going to be legal becasue it's a Ford part, or it's going to be legal because it's an OE on a Ford production car?Not sure that a purpose built race car qualifies as Production vehicle. Is it street legal? By this definition, is a Ford motorsport aluminun block going to be legal? It's in the catalog. I'm also not sure it's worth tweeking the rules so much in order for these FR cars to be legal. Good one Dave!!! And T-56's can be had for $2400 or less! I love mine! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Algozine Posted December 17, 2007 Share Posted December 17, 2007 Dave, Who cares what ABS they run! Spend $75,000 on this thing and they're still going to get their ass handed to them. 325 flywheel HP ain't going to do it. I say bring them on! Sidney AI #64 Point taken, but it won't take much engine work to get 350 at the wheels. Plus, as with other recently approved mods, whats the point? I see the rules getting tweeked to allow for the few and not to protect the many (meaning the existing fleet of AI cars). Warning, rant o-meter is going up: 18" wheels means 14" brakes. Non of the existing AI cars have 14" brakes, but anyone building a car can upgrade. No, not the end of the world, but it's something new to look at. Although the whole LS-1 in a Mustang has been beat to death, I still haven't heard anyone explain why it was approved. Who benefits? The series? I don't see how Does it bring in more cars? I don't know of many LS-1 equiped Mustangs that were being denied to run in AI. Why not just leave the engine option open. What's the difference? Now the FR's ABS. I assume ((I know, never assume) that an ABS system designed and built for racing is going to be superior to the OE stuff on other cars. So, isn't that an advantage? Again, Why, allow it? Sorry, back to your regularly scheduled post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbodleimages Posted December 17, 2007 Share Posted December 17, 2007 Chris, the FR500S is the new Mustang Challenge race car. It is a step down from a grand am cup car. a purpose built by the factory race car. $75K. http://video.aol.com/video-detail/mmp-mustang-challenge-car/2308449030 http://www.zercustoms.com/news/Mustang-Challenge.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nape Posted December 17, 2007 Share Posted December 17, 2007 Dave: Once again, I agree with ya! That's a pretty wimpy cage for the money. Good luck getting t-boned by an AI/AIX car and not needing a life flight. [edit] To add something else, will NASA give a waiver to the cage that doesn't pass CCR 15.6.7? 15.6.7 Diagonal Brace At least one (1) diagonal brace shall be used in the same plane as the main hoop. One end of the diagonal brace shall attach to the corner, or horizontal part, of the main hoop above the driver’s head, within twelve (12) inches of the driver’s-side corner. The other end of the diagonal brace shall attach to the mounting plate (or to the main hoop as close to the mounting plate as practically possible) diagonally opposed to the driver’s head (passenger floor). I'm no S197 pro, but I believe they could've got the diagonal a lot closer to the mounting plate then that. The diagonal bar terminates on the main hoop at the same spot as the single passenger door bar. The SEMA car seems to have a different cage (additional passenger door bar and an X in the main hoop) so I may be barking up the wrong tree, but I think it's worth investigating before we make changes to the series for a car that may not pass tech without additional fab work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ST#97 Posted December 18, 2007 Share Posted December 18, 2007 Dave, Who cares what ABS they run! Spend $75,000 on this thing and they're still going to get their ass handed to them. 325 flywheel HP ain't going to do it. I say bring them on! Sidney AI #64 Rehegen had a couple FR500C's at an event last april here in Texas and we had a few cars running with them. Granted they were running the GAC hoosiers but they were INSANELY fast. They were doing well against a former World Challenge Mustang and these guys had never seen the track before!!! Granted, these lower HP cars aren't going to have the grunt of 425hp...but the brakes, suspension and tuning of the cars is FAR superior to the current mix of TYPICAL AI cars, predominantly in balance, springs and shock valving. Now if someone wants to go spend $75k for a turn key car...let em'! We will still smoke em! Not to mention pop a motor in that car and it's $10k unless you have a builder in your pocket! Like I said a couple months back, it looks like AI is going to need big sponsorship to start running at the front...or just deep pockets. I am sure you guys have inquired about 18" tires...namely R888's for 09!!! $307 ea, nearing DOUBLE that of the 17's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbodleimages Posted December 18, 2007 Share Posted December 18, 2007 BF Goodrich R1: 275/40-17 $252. 275/35-18 $269(tire rack) Hoosier R6: 275/40-17 $263 275/35-18 $282(tire rack) Toyo R888: 275/40-17 N/A 275/35-18 $358 shaved(app tire) Right now their 235/40-17 R888 is $212 it seems to me the R888 275/40-17 will be as expensive as the BFG anyway. If this is what the prices are going to be like, this should be the last season of a spec tire in American Iron. There is little to no price advantage in the R888 even at 17". At 18" the other tires are significantly less expensive. From personal use I know the BFG lasts almost as long as the RA1 does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RodeoFlyer Posted December 18, 2007 Share Posted December 18, 2007 Dave, Who cares what ABS they run! Spend $75,000 on this thing and they're still going to get their ass handed to them. 325 flywheel HP ain't going to do it. I say bring them on! Sidney AI #64 Rehegen had a couple FR500C's at an event last april here in Texas and we had a few cars running with them. Granted they were running the GAC hoosiers but they were INSANELY fast. They were doing well against a former World Challenge Mustang and these guys had never seen the track before!!! Granted, these lower HP cars aren't going to have the grunt of 425hp...but the brakes, suspension and tuning of the cars is FAR superior to the current mix of TYPICAL AI cars, predominantly in balance, springs and shock valving. Now if someone wants to go spend $75k for a turn key car...let em'! We will still smoke em! Not to mention pop a motor in that car and it's $10k unless you have a builder in your pocket! Like I said a couple months back, it looks like AI is going to need big sponsorship to start running at the front...or just deep pockets. I am sure you guys have inquired about 18" tires...namely R888's for 09!!! $307 ea, nearing DOUBLE that of the 17's. A new motor with quality internals can be put together for under 6k Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ST#97 Posted December 18, 2007 Share Posted December 18, 2007 A new motor with quality internals can be put together for under 6k Hence the wink....but someone who can afford to flop down $75k on an "AI" car isn't going to hesitate to plop down 10k for a motor... money and brains are one in the same! I have less than $4k in mine and it's about as exotic as a 2V can get....thanks to previous sponsor who builds these motors! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onralz Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 Dave, Who cares what ABS they run! Spend $75,000 on this thing and they're still going to get their ass handed to them. 325 flywheel HP ain't going to do it. I say bring them on! Sidney AI #64 Point taken, but it won't take much engine work to get 350 at the wheels. Plus, as with other recently approved mods, whats the point? I see the rules getting tweeked to allow for the few and not to protect the many (meaning the existing fleet of AI cars). Warning, rant o-meter is going up: 18" wheels means 14" brakes. Non of the existing AI cars have 14" brakes, but anyone building a car can upgrade. No, not the end of the world, but it's something new to look at. Although the whole LS-1 in a Mustang has been beat to death, I still haven't heard anyone explain why it was approved. Who benefits? The series? I don't see how Does it bring in more cars? I don't know of many LS-1 equiped Mustangs that were being denied to run in AI. Why not just leave the engine option open. What's the difference? Now the FR's ABS. I assume ((I know, never assume) that an ABS system designed and built for racing is going to be superior to the OE stuff on other cars. So, isn't that an advantage? Again, Why, allow it? Sorry, back to your regularly scheduled post I believe that Dean Smetzler (sp?) is running 14" brakes. The rules never said you couldn't, just that you could only run 17" rims. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff F Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 That's a pretty wimpy cage for the money. Good luck getting t-boned by an AI/AIX car and not needing a life flight. It's kind of confusing, but you are looking at one if the "Miller Challenge" cars built in-house at Miller. The FR500S has a completely different cage based on the 500C with some of the FIA upgrades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nape Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 It's kind of confusing, but you are looking at one if the "Miller Challenge" cars built in-house at Miller. The FR500S has a completely different cage based on the 500C with some of the FIA upgrades. Thanks for clearing that up, Jeff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOC- Beau Posted December 20, 2007 Author Share Posted December 20, 2007 O.K. After several phone calls from all over the east coast, I decided to clear this up once and for all. IT IS NOT ME I was asked about the legality of the FR500S in AI so I brought it here. I only wish that an FR500 was in my budget. I will be riding the same old Fox body next year. I will be happy if I can just get all of the dents fixed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gr8-96GT Posted December 20, 2007 Share Posted December 20, 2007 Dave: Once again, I agree with ya! That's a pretty wimpy cage for the money. Good luck getting t-boned by an AI/AIX car and not needing a life flight. [edit] To add something else, will NASA give a waiver to the cage that doesn't pass CCR 15.6.7? 15.6.7 Diagonal Brace At least one (1) diagonal brace shall be used in the same plane as the main hoop. One end of the diagonal brace shall attach to the corner, or horizontal part, of the main hoop above the driver’s head, within twelve (12) inches of the driver’s-side corner. The other end of the diagonal brace shall attach to the mounting plate (or to the main hoop as close to the mounting plate as practically possible) diagonally opposed to the driver’s head (passenger floor). I'm no S197 pro, but I believe they could've got the diagonal a lot closer to the mounting plate then that. The diagonal bar terminates on the main hoop at the same spot as the single passenger door bar. The SEMA car seems to have a different cage (additional passenger door bar and an X in the main hoop) so I may be barking up the wrong tree, but I think it's worth investigating before we make changes to the series for a car that may not pass tech without additional fab work. That's not the fr500s, go to http://www.millercup.com the cages are more in depth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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