Mustang FR500S in American Iron?

[Grizlbits]

FR500, FS500, FP200, GV90, PX624593854, whatever. It doesn't matter. A 86 Fox body will win AI in 2008, and a 99 cobra will win in AIX.

[gbrown8439]

Good thing I race an 86 Fox I guess.

[swhiteh3]

Keep in mind that Rehagen car probably had just slightly above AI legal power. And I do mean *just* slightly. It depends on what trim they ran it in, and whether they had some of the ballast and heavy items in it (like GAC-mandated ballast box and FAST cooler).

 

Having done back-to-back testing with the Hoosier GACs and the Toyos, there is not that much of a difference after the first few Hoosier heat cycles. I believe the Hoosier GACs they were using were race take-offs, like I've run myself when the team had extras, and they're no quicker than the Toyos, and probably a little more finicky. (Admittedly, during the first few heat cycles, they are quicker than the Toyos...)

 

At nationals, that car had a well-sorted suspension (keep in mind we -Rehagen- have raced at Mid-Ohio before and know how to make the car work there), good brakes (14" brakes w/ race ABS), and a very good driver.

 

Considering that about 100-150lbs of ballast or so would have probably made it legal, along with a tire swap, how did it do against the AI leaders? (A serious question - I was not there...)

 

Scott

[92MNstanger]

Dave: Once again, I agree with ya!

 

That's a pretty wimpy cage for the money. Good luck getting t-boned by an AI/AIX car and not needing a life flight.

 

[edit]

 

To add something else, will NASA give a waiver to the cage that doesn't pass CCR 15.6.7?

 

 

15.6.7 Diagonal Brace

At least one (1) diagonal brace shall be used in the same plane as the main hoop. One

end of the diagonal brace shall attach to the corner, or horizontal part, of the main hoop

above the driver’s head, within twelve (12) inches of the driver’s-side corner. The other

end of the diagonal brace shall attach to the mounting plate (or to the main hoop as

close to the mounting plate as practically possible) diagonally opposed to the driver’s

head (passenger floor).

 

I'm no S197 pro, but I believe they could've got the diagonal a lot closer to the mounting plate then that. The diagonal bar terminates on the main hoop at the same spot as the single passenger door bar. The SEMA car seems to have a different cage (additional passenger door bar and an X in the main hoop) so I may be barking up the wrong tree, but I think it's worth investigating before we make changes to the series for a car that may not pass tech without additional fab work.

 

It doesn't appear to be much different than the Autopower cages that are accepted. I linked a photo of just a bar since the view is better. The cage has the same arrangement. That part of the rule is ambiguous.

 

http://www.autopowerindustries.com/Images/lg/DSC_2848.jpg

[gbrown8439]

 

Considering that about 100-150lbs of ballast or so would have probably made it legal, along with a tire swap, how did it do against the AI leaders? (A serious question - I was not there...)

 

Scott

 

I don't remember for sure but I think I was 1-1.5 sec. per lap faster than the AI guys.

[robbodleimages]

Keep in mind that Rehagen car probably had just slightly above AI legal power. And I do mean *just* slightly. It depends on what trim they ran it in, and whether they had some of the ballast and heavy items in it (like GAC-mandated ballast box and FAST cooler).

 

Having done back-to-back testing with the Hoosier GACs and the Toyos, there is not that much of a difference after the first few Hoosier heat cycles. I believe the Hoosier GACs they were using were race take-offs, like I've run myself when the team had extras, and they're no quicker than the Toyos, and probably a little more finicky. (Admittedly, during the first few heat cycles, they are quicker than the Toyos...)

 

At nationals, that car had a well-sorted suspension (keep in mind we -Rehagen- have raced at Mid-Ohio before and know how to make the car work there), good brakes (14" brakes w/ race ABS), and a very good driver.

 

Considering that about 100-150lbs of ballast or so would have probably made it legal, along with a tire swap, how did it do against the AI leaders? (A serious question - I was not there...)

 

Scott

 

Scott, which Rehegan car are you talking about? Current or past body style?

[Red Tornado]

Which RR car are you all talking about??

 

Mine is the ex-2004 #52 car. I had to detune about 40rwhp out of it through timing reduction as it made nearly 390rwhp.

I would love to get Dean and the crew to setup my car this year as it was far from ideally tuned for Mid-Ohio. They do know how to build a nice car though. That thing has been a rock!!!

[robbodleimages]

I thought they were talking about a different car than yours. Yours I know.

[swhiteh3]

I'm talking about the '05 car that ran at Nationals this year. I use it as a comparison because it ran on the same track, on the same day, etc. Ray Mason drove it - he's VERY capable, but Dean might have rang another second per lap out of it, so there is yet more in it.

 

Yes, the '03 era cars made about 390rwhp at the trim Chris has. Keep in mind they were a LOT lighter than the '05s in race trim, and despite having less drag, less weight, and more development time, they were never as quick as the '05 cars.

 

By the way, I'm really glad you're enjoying that car Chris. It's so great to see the car driven the way it was meant to be. I'd hate to think all the long hours in the shop yielded somebody's show car that sits under plastic! I'd still like to sit down with you and work on making it even faster. I might just have a few tricks (not to mention years worth of set-up notes!)

[robbodleimages]

Scott Ive got to race that guy. Its hard enough keeping up with him as it is. Some secrets are best kept to yourself....please?

[swhiteh3]

This is a free market economy... what's it worth to you!

[ST#97]

FR500, FS500, FP200, GV90, PX624593854, whatever. It doesn't matter. A 86 Fox body will win AI in 2008, and a 99 cobra will win in AIX.

 

I will be doing my best to prove you wrong!

 

<---fingers crossed!

[Red Tornado]

Scott, PM me as to how to contact you, etc..

I am wanting to change the rear suspension a bit as it is jacked up a huge 3-4 inches above min height. Doesn't help front brake fade, weight transfer, etc..

Would love a good local shop or individual who knows how to work on the car instead of the expensive german car shops.

[gbrown8439]

I'm talking about the '05 car that ran at Nationals this year. I use it as a comparison because it ran on the same track, on the same day, etc. Ray Mason drove it - he's VERY capable, but Dean might have rang another second per lap out of it, so there is yet more in it.

 

Scott,

That was actually our FR500C at Nationals this year. When we tested a few days before Nationals I was within 1/2 a second of our pro driver at Mid Ohio.

IMO the FR would make an OK AI car but would suffer from it's 3500# race weight.

[D Algozine]

the '03 era cars made about 390rwhp at the trim Chris has. Keep in mind they were a LOT lighter than the '05s in race trim, and despite having less drag, less weight, and more development time, they were never as quick as the '05 cars.

 

So, then the question is why is it faster? As I heard mentioned before, it's still JUST four little patches of tire on the road. And if you believe it's that's simple, if got a great deal on some land in Florida.

But, seriouly, why is the O5 car faster with less HP, less development, more weight and more drag? What's the key to it's speed? My guess is longer and wider wheel base, but I'm not an engineer or a suspension guy. So what gives?

[Grizlbits]

But, seriouly, why is the O5 car faster with less HP, less development, more weight and more drag? What's the key to it's speed? My guess is longer and wider wheel base, but I'm not an engineer or a suspension guy. So what gives?

 

Maybe the level of talent for the driver was better in the 05's compared to the 03's? Is it the same driver in each car Scott, or is it two different people?

 

Let's put Boris Said in the 03 and watch him spank the 05's.....

[D Algozine]

But, seriouly, why is the O5 car faster with less HP, less development, more weight and more drag? What's the key to it's speed? My guess is longer and wider wheel base, but I'm not an engineer or a suspension guy. So what gives?

 

Maybe the level of talent for the driver was better in the 05's compared to the 03's? Is it the same driver in each car Scott, or is it two different people?

 

Let's put Boris Said in the 03 and watch him spank the 05's.....

 

I assumed it was an apples to apples comparison.

[ST#97]

 

So, then the question is why is it faster? As I heard mentioned before, it's still JUST four little patches of tire on the road. And if you believe it's that's simple, if got a great deal on some land in Florida.

But, seriouly, why is the O5 car faster with less HP, less development, more weight and more drag? What's the key to it's speed? My guess is longer and wider wheel base, but I'm not an engineer or a suspension guy. So what gives?

 

MUCH better front suspension geometry...more like a BMW than a 78 ford fairmont. Wider track width, longer wheel base, better shocks, BIGGER brakes, better F/R weight bias, lots of money spent by Ford Racing to develop it.....should I go on...?

[swhiteh3]

Yes, same drivers. Obviously, during a typical race weekend the same driver would not drive the old car and the new car, but it was very typical for one of our faster drivers to get in one of the older [rental] '03s to set a baseline for the data acquisition and to help dial the cars in.

[abuffom]

So what's the verdict on the original question...is the FR500s legal for 2008 or not?

 

We have one on the way and plan to come to Road Atlanta in March for a shakedown prior to the May Miller Cup race. I'm happy to register it in SU since we are just looking to log laps, but I'm curious to see if it's legal in AI.

 

Thanks,

Tony Buffomante

http://www.teambre.com

[Red Tornado]

Would at least need new toyo tires as I don't think those are spec for the other series.

[Dawg]

So what's the verdict on the original question...is the FR500s legal for 2008 or not?

 

We have one on the way and plan to come to Road Atlanta in March for a shakedown prior to the May Miller Cup race. I'm happy to register it in SU since we are just looking to log laps, but I'm curious to see if it's legal in AI.

 

Thanks,

Tony Buffomante

http://www.teambre.com

 

i guess you will sign up for the enduro on friday? will get alot more bang for the buck!

good luck!!!!!!!!!

[Jay A.]

It seems to me there needs to be a definition in the AI or CCR rules describing what qualifies OEM. Maybe it is there and I am not seeing it. Does a factory, purpose built race car(s) qualify as OEM?? Just because it is in the manufactures high performance catalog does the part qualify it for OEM?? I do not know the answers. I know some old sanctioning bodes required 250 cars built to be qualified. I say bring it on but I do not want to change the core rules of american iron. I know John Lindsey will have some eloquent words to help with this. This area seems very grey to me and is deffinatly not well defined.

 

Jay Andrew

[b_tone]

It seems to me there needs to be a definition in the AI or CCR rules describing what qualifies OEM. Maybe it is there and I am not seeing it. Does a factory, purpose built race car(s) qualify as OEM?? Just because it is in the manufactures high performance catalog does the part qualify it for OEM?? I do not know the answers. I know some old sanctioning bodes required 250 cars built to be qualified. I say bring it on but I do not want to change the core rules of american iron. I know John Lindsey will have some eloquent words to help with this. This area seems very grey to me and is deffinatly not well defined.

 

Jay Andrew

 

Jay the answer to your question also impacts whether or not the ABS module in the Motorsport Catalog (for the mustang folks) is legal or not as that is truly not a production unit rather a unit derived and optimized for racing. I don't think that an answer to that question has been addressed either.

[ST#97]

It seems to me there needs to be a definition in the AI or CCR rules describing what qualifies OEM. Maybe it is there and I am not seeing it. Does a factory, purpose built race car(s) qualify as OEM?? Just because it is in the manufactures high performance catalog does the part qualify it for OEM?? I do not know the answers. I know some old sanctioning bodes required 250 cars built to be qualified. I say bring it on but I do not want to change the core rules of american iron. I know John Lindsey will have some eloquent words to help with this. This area seems very grey to me and is deffinatly not well defined.

 

Jay Andrew

 

Well, the AI rules say that the intent is to promote the aftermarket and their parts catalogs...The FR500C is a line item in the FRPP Catalog...so Legal it is! It may need some parts swaps to be homoligated to AI like the ABS and maybe some other stuff no one has actually seen yet but hey, if you want to spend $75k for an AI car...go for it. Just get used to looking at the tail lights on $15k cars!