Mustang FR500S in American Iron?

[King Matt]

Gee, I remember back when the regular old non-FR500 version of the S197 platform was going to be the "class killer." Maybe that prophesy will finally come to pass with this new car. Either that or it will be the the 18s.

[D Algozine]

CLARIFICATION

 

I don't think the new FR cars will be "class killers". However, I don't feel we need to adjust the rules so they will be legal in AI. If people want to buy them, I think that's great, but they shoud modify the car to fit the rules and not the other way around.

 

Oddly enough, I am calm. I'm just adding my two cents to the mix. Like everyone else, we would like to see this series continue to thrive.

[RodeoFlyer]

CLARIFICATION

 

I don't think the new FR cars will be "class killers". However, I don't feel we need to adjust the rules so they will be legal in AI. If people want to buy them, I think that's great, but they shoud modify the car to fit the rules and not the other way around.

 

Oddly enough, I am calm. I'm just adding my two cents to the mix. Like everyone else, we would like to see this series continue to thrive.

 

That's a great way to keep newer cars out of the series. I guess the vintage class will be back soon enough as the Fox-bodied cars turn THIRTY years old.

 

Every series that exists for any reasonable amount of time evolves with the cars. Having blinders on to new rule adjustments and new cars probably wont help.

 

In 09' when I am in AI with my S197 getting spanked by better drivers in Fox bodied cars I promise not to bitch about it.

[D Algozine]

CLARIFICATION

 

I don't think the new FR cars will be "class killers". However, I don't feel we need to adjust the rules so they will be legal in AI. If people want to buy them, I think that's great, but they shoud modify the car to fit the rules and not the other way around.

 

Oddly enough, I am calm. I'm just adding my two cents to the mix. Like everyone else, we would like to see this series continue to thrive.

 

That's a great way to keep newer cars out of the series. I guess the vintage class will be back soon enough as the Fox-bodied cars turn THIRTY years old.

 

Every series that exists for any reasonable amount of time evolves with the cars. Having blinders on to new rule adjustments and new cars probably wont help.

 

In 09' when I am in AI with my S197 getting spanked by better drivers in Fox bodied cars I promise not to bitch about it.

 

FURTHER CLARIFICATION

 

The FR cars are purpose built Mustang race cars that are built in collaboration with Ford and professional race fabricators. Some of their components are not stock Mustang, therefore there is consern about their use in AI. The S197 is and has been successfully raced in AI for the last two years. Not exactly getting spanked by the old cars. They currently have the same power to weight, spec tire and other rules that the rest of the field has. Actually, one could agrue that they have a wheel base advantage over the rest of the field, but they are certainly not at any major disadvantage that I'm aware of. The thirty year old Fox cars are being raced, with success I might add, but there are many SN95 (94-04) Mustangs, also. Plus, GM's F body and at least one GTO. So, there's more then just those old Fox bodies to contend with.

[RodeoFlyer]

I agree with 90% of what you are saying however a couple of points -

 

The FR500S is hardly a purpose built race car. It's just a stripped down GT with a cage and Brembos for the most part. It's not anywhere near the performance of the FR500C, which I believe many people are still confusing it with. In it's delivered trim it is not even close to a 9.5 to 1 p/w ratio. The motor is junk. It has weak rods and will require new heads and cams to even come close to the power equired.

 

The S197's are HEAVY. Brake kit options for them that fit in a 17" wheel don't exist. The brake pad and tire bill is gonna suck.

 

Series-wide, it's clear the fox body cars are the most abundant and for good reason.

 

The gap between CMC and AI is becoming painfully large. One could argue that it's unfair that SLA's, Mustang SS's, and other things are allowed in AI when they are so expensive. Personally I think the whole series would benefit if certain modifications were restricted to AIX. God knows the AIX fields are too small and AI is getting too expensive for the common man to run.

 

Meanwhile here we have a debate over whether a 3500lb underpowered car is going to be a "class killer". I didn't see any S197's win either National Championship - and those are much better built cars with more power. This FR500S is the least of anybody's worries for AI.

[ST#97]

How convienient that this month's Grassroots Motorsports just arrived, and has an article on the subject. Page 115. Check it out.

 

On you suggestion, I read the article twice and here is what I came away with...

 

GRM's article is on a heavy street car that might not have optimum camber settings, they were street tires and they didn't keep the rotating mass the same (we could) and their method of evaluation was a combination of track and street driving...one comment said the 18's felt better in sustained turns (ie race track driving), and the 17's offered more comfort on the street. The should be caned for even suggesting such items in a RACING magazine.

 

Further take away: Test needs to be done on race tires, RA1's would be great, rotating mass needs to be same, or less as racers would find a way, and eliminate the roadtest loop.

 

Given most of us are running HEAVY 95 cobra R's at 25lbs each, I have found 18's at 19.5# each, and the 18" R888 will be lighter than current 17" RA1's... the one negative factor in the GRM test will be negated...

 

Synopsis? 18" tires and wheels when properly applied to a racing application will be faster, more expensive and allow larger brakes on cars that don't need them!

[robbodleimages]

I take this as an opportunity for my latest favorite drumbeat. The R888 should never be the spec tire for AI particularly if 18's become the tire of choice.

 

They are easily the most expensive racing tire on the market in 275/35-18.

[ST#97]

I take this as an opportunity for my latest favorite drumbeat. The R888 should never be the spec tire for AI particularly if 18's become the tire of choice.

 

They are easily the most expensive racing tire on the market in 275/35-18.

 

One can of worms at a time!!!

 

I do agree with you though!

[D Algozine]

I agree with 90% of what you are saying however a couple of points -

 

The FR500S is hardly a purpose built race car. It's just a stripped down GT with a cage and Brembos for the most part. It's not anywhere near the performance of the FR500C, which I believe many people are still confusing it with. In it's delivered trim it is not even close to a 9.5 to 1 p/w ratio. The motor is junk. It has weak rods and will require new heads and cams to even come close to the power equired.

 

 

The S197's are HEAVY. Brake kit options for them that fit in a 17" wheel don't exist. The brake pad and tire bill is gonna suck.

 

Series-wide, it's clear the fox body cars are the most abundant and for good reason.

 

The gap between CMC and AI is becoming painfully large. One could argue that it's unfair that SLA's, Mustang SS's, and other things are allowed in AI when they are so expensive. Personally I think the whole series would benefit if certain modifications were restricted to AIX. God knows the AIX fields are too small and AI is getting too expensive for the common man to run.

 

Meanwhile here we have a debate over whether a 3500lb underpowered car is going to be a "class killer". I didn't see any S197's win either National Championship - and those are much better built cars with more power. This FR500S is the least of anybody's worries for AI.

 

I don't really know too much about the FR cars and their differences. My point is, if their legal great, come on in and join the party. However, I don't like the idea of tweaking the existing rules in order for those cars to be legal. My understanding is the sticky points are the 18" wheels, which has already been legalized, the ABS system is not stock (per the existing AI rules), and the transmission may not fit the letter of the law. Agian, I don't think they will dominate, that's not my consern.

 

Regarding the S197's, yes they are a littel heavier, but I have seen two seperate, quality, high end 13" front brake set ups used on the new cars with great success. That car does have other advantages, not unlike any legal car for AI, it has strengths and weaknesses.

 

Also, in 2006 3 out of the top 5 in AI were S197 cars, and there were only 4 S197's in the whole AI field, not bad for a brand new car. And in 2007 2 of the top 3 were S197's. Although these stats don't rule the day, they atleast indicate the car is capable of being very competitive under the old rules.

 

I agree with your statement about AI and CMC getting much furhter apart, and I also agree that some the exiting AI mods make better sense in AIX. (but I'm sure that going backwords is not going to happen) Which drives my point home about not opening the AI rules any more then they are.

[gbrown8439]

I ASSume that this:

 

7.8.3 Anti-lock brake systems are prohibited except for an unmodified OEM system, which includes

ABS valve body and electronics as delivered from the factory. Updating and backdating of

factory ABS systems into newer and older cars is allowed.

 

Means that the system off the Corvette would not be legal in an F body?

 

Greg

[ST#97]

I ASSume that this:

 

7.8.3 Anti-lock brake systems are prohibited except for an unmodified OEM system, which includes

ABS valve body and electronics as delivered from the factory. Updating and backdating of

factory ABS systems into newer and older cars is allowed.

 

Means that the system off the Corvette would not be legal in an F body?

 

Greg

 

Sounds legal to me because it's from an OEM and as long as the computer control of it was unaltered...you would be fine... Now if you could help me figure out how to wire in a BMW M5 ABS controller, that would be a big help!

[gbrown8439]

Sounds legal to me because it's from an OEM and as long as the computer control of it was unaltered...you would be fine... Now if you could help me figure out how to wire in a BMW M5 ABS controller, that would be a big help!

 

That's kind of my point.

I have had a couple of our Pro drivers tell me that the ABS system on the FR is better than the near stock system we started with but still no better than what comes on a Vette and not as good as a Porsche.

TO MY KNOWLEDGE the biggest changes to the FR system is in the programing to keep it from freaking out and shutting down. There were several smashed FR's because the stock system kept malfunctioning.

The reason Grand Am allowed it was safety. They sure as hell were not going to give us another performance advantage because they like us, we already have to run a restrictor plate.

Whether the FR's ABS is legel or not I'll be running an ABS unit on my car.

[ST#97]

Sounds legal to me because it's from an OEM and as long as the computer control of it was unaltered...you would be fine... Now if you could help me figure out how to wire in a BMW M5 ABS controller, that would be a big help!

 

That's kind of my point.

I have had a couple of our Pro drivers tell me that the ABS system on the FR is better than the near stock system we started with but still no better than what comes on a Vette and not as good as a Porsche.

TO MY KNOWLEDGE the biggest changes to the FR system is in the programing to keep it from freaking out and shutting down. There were several smashed FR's because the stock system kept malfunctioning.

The reason Grand Am allowed it was safety. They sure as hell were not going to give us another performance advantage because they like us, we already have to run a restrictor plate.

Whether the FR's ABS is legel or not I'll be running an ABS unit on my car.

 

Actually, I think you missed my point...as long as it is an unmodified system as delivered on the street car, ANY OEM ABS system is allowed under the current rules... The FR system is not an OEM but is a race piece from a race car...

[gbrown8439]

Actually, I think you missed my point...as long as it is an unmodified system as delivered on the street car, ANY OEM ABS system is allowed under the current rules... The FR system is not an OEM but is a race piece from a race car...

 

Maybe I don't understand what OEM means.

I thought it was Original Equipment Manufacturer.

If that's what it means why wouldn't an ABS unit made by Ford and sold on a Ford car be legal?

I don't recall seeing the word street car used in the rule.

[JWL]

Folks-

 

Hold tight over the weekend. The directors have discussed the issue and I'm just waiting for one more piece of data before we conclusively rule on the FR ABS unit.

 

Thanks.

 

-JWL

[ST#97]

Actually, I think you missed my point...as long as it is an unmodified system as delivered on the street car, ANY OEM ABS system is allowed under the current rules... The FR system is not an OEM but is a race piece from a race car...

 

Maybe I don't understand what OEM means.

I thought it was Original Equipment Manufacturer.

 

Ah, the question of the day! And the catch 22! The precedent for an OEM LS1 motor being allowed to be installed into an OEM fox chassis pretty well establishes I can run a BMW ABS if I so desire as long as it's installed in the same manner it was found in the OEM configuration with no programming changes.

 

Now, Ford Racing is NOT an OEM, they are a performance parts division, not a Vehicle manufacturer which the term OEM typically refers to! NOw if they put it into their catalog as an available part, then yeah, it's good to go...I guess it is now too, you just have to buy a $75k "kit" to go with it!

 

So, the quagmire has come full circle...maybe?!

 

I am saying this as my pure opinion only...pretty soon, AI rules are going to be "bring what you can afford as long as you meet the HP/Weight ratio..." to an extent, they already do but are much less clear to give hope!

 

Bye the way, these arguments will never end as long as there is a dollar to be spent!!!

[King Matt]

Maybe AI needs a homologation rule--minimum of 1,000 units produced to be considered OEM production.

[D Algozine]

I might just have a few tricks (not to mention years worth of set-up notes!)

 

Scott, you have a PM

[mwilson7]

Maybe AI needs a homologation rule--minimum of 1,000 units produced to be considered OEM production.

 

What exactly are you going to homologate? LS1 motors in Mustangs?

 

Technically speaking Ford Racing is a Vehicle Manufacturer now with the FR500 series vehicles?

 

I don't really see what the big deal is here as no ones going to be able to enforce the ABS software rule anyway.

[ST#97]

Maybe AI needs a homologation rule--minimum of 1,000 units produced to be considered OEM production.

 

Technically speaking Ford Racing is a Vehicle Manufacturer now with the FR500 series vehicles?

 

I guess we would have to qualify Vehicle Manufacturer too...those cars aren't street legal and don't have VINs...so take a step back...

 

True on the ABS stuff as well...

[pbr96]

Maybe AI needs a homologation rule--minimum of 1,000 units produced to be considered OEM production.

 

Technically speaking Ford Racing is a Vehicle Manufacturer now with the FR500 series vehicles?

 

I guess we would have to qualify Vehicle Manufacturer too...those cars aren't street legal and don't have VINs...so take a step back...

 

 

So does this mean my 65 Shelby GT350R is not AI legal, it was not street legal either and was built by Shelby, or was it Ford, or was it Ford then by Shebly and sold through Ford...

 

I think you guys are splitting hairs and getting worked up over minor things. Ford Motor Co built the chassis and it ran down the line like every other Mustang. Does this mean anyone that bought a "body-in-white" to build a car is illegal? I don't see the differance, the fire wall, floor, frame rails, etc. are still in the stock location. If it meets the power to weight, who gives a shite.

 

.02 cents shorten, I could go on for days.

 

Paul Brown

#96 AIX

[swhiteh3]

I don't really see what the big deal is here as no ones going to be able to enforce the ABS software rule anyway.

We can't possibly enforce rules like traction control either, so should we drop them too?

 

So does this mean my 65 Shelby GT350R is not AI legal, it was not street legal either and was built by Shelby, or was it Ford, or was it Ford then by Shebly and sold through Ford...

 

I think you guys are splitting hairs and getting worked up over minor things. Ford Motor Co built the chassis and it ran down the line like every other Mustang. Does this mean anyone that bought a "body-in-white" to build a car is illegal? I don't see the differance, the fire wall, floor, frame rails, etc. are still in the stock location. If it meets the power to weight, who gives a shoo-shiddily-diddily.

As long as all the parts on that car are legal (including the original Mustang chassis), then the car should be legal, no matter who built it. If it complies with the rules, then run it. If every modification on the car could be done by the racer, then it should not matter if it was built by Ford Racing, Shelby, Steeda, or by Joe-Racer in his garage.

 

On the other hand, just because it was originally "built that way", whether by Ford Racing, Shelby, or Steeda, does not automatically make that combination of parts legal if they are otherwise illegal.

 

The point is, as it sits there are components in the FR500-series cars that are not AI-legal - some cars contain more of these than others. If you want to run those cars, remove those illegal parts, replace them with legal ones, and come out and play. Pretty simple really.

[mwilson7]

I don't really see what the big deal is here as no ones going to be able to enforce the ABS software rule anyway.

We can't possibly enforce rules like traction control either, so should we drop them too?

 

DEFINITELY! I can't for the life of me understand why there are rules in AI like this that are non-enforceable.

 

P.S. Paul - Bring out your R Model anytime you want!

[JWL]

Folks-

 

After some debate and further information, we have decided that the FR500 race ABS control unit is not legal for purposes of AI Rule 7.8.3. The cars themselves can compete, but the ABS unit must be replaced with one off of a street going S197.

 

Thanks and sorry it took so dadgum long to figure this out.

 

-JWL

[wbrownie]

Bummer...