SFI Head & Neck mandatory for NASA in June 08

[JCraven]

I am not buying my HNR until right before the rule date is supposed to take effect - why? Because who knows what could change up to then. $800 is not an insignificant amount of money and I'm not going to spend it twice on the same thing. Come end of June, if this rule is still going to be taking effect without modification I will be buying the HANS. That and a new seat to accommodate the HANS. So this rule will now cost me about $1800-$2000.

 

Patrick

 

I might take a break from racing, or go with a group not requiring SFI 38.1 like TT or.. I'll do some research. I'm waiting for the TT/PT rules, so there is so much still up in the air. I still haven't purchased the side net, and don't like them so I need a new seat too which are safer than the awkward nets. I probably do want a HNR, so will continue to do some research and will make up my mind and see what is out there.

[Driver]

Question for ISAAC users:

-Can you easily detach the device when upside down?

The answer is yes. 2 hands go up to the sides of your helmet, you feel for the pins, POP POP, you're loose.

 

Now, the million dollar question: Can a corner worker do it?

You're upside down in a crunched Sonnet with fuel and oil all over the place, but you don't know because you've been knocked out. Can a corner worker get into that tiny window of the upside down car and work the releases loose before you both burn to death?

 

If the device cannot be quickly undone by a contorted corner worker in a panic, then it's not only worthless, it can be worse than worthless. You can live as a quadripalegic, but not as a hunk of bacon.

 

There are complaints about the HANS being snagged by things, yes. But as a corner worker, I can grab you BY your HANS frame and pull you out, thus keeping if from snagging. I'd also add that a well sorted cockpit should keep snags from happening.

[HBennett]

I am not buying my HNR until right before the rule date is supposed to take effect - why? Because who knows what could change up to then. $800 is not an insignificant amount of money and I'm not going to spend it twice on the same thing. Come end of June, if this rule is still going to be taking effect without modification I will be buying the HANS. That and a new seat to accommodate the HANS. So this rule will now cost me about $1800-$2000.

 

Patrick

 

Why do you think you need a new seat? What kind of seat do you have now?

 

Howard Bennett

HANS Performance

[FlyingDog]

Now, the million dollar question: Can a corner worker do it?

You're upside down in a crunched Sonnet with fuel and oil all over the place, but you don't know because you've been knocked out. Can a corner worker get into that tiny window of the upside down car and work the releases loose before you both burn to death?

Can a corner worker turn off a kill switch? Can a corner worker unbuckle a seatbelt? Unless the corner worker is a moron, yes, they can pull the pins on an Isaac. It's simple. For me, that doesn't matter since the last time I tried to sit in a Sonnet III my shins were pressed against the dash.

 

Kind of funny that you want corner workers pulling injured driver's from their vehicles by their heads. Isn't the purpose of an H&N restraint to protect the neck, not damage it? If you want a pull handle add one to your suit. Like I said before, I'd rather not have an FPR anchor (tethered to my head) preventing me from escaping a burning vehicle.

 

You seem to think that because you have made the choice not to use an Isaac, others shouldn't have the choice.

[FlyingDog]

Though I don;t plan on buying a HANS, I must defend them on this front. Background: I've been involved in some aspect of manufacturing for the last 10 years, essentially my whole professional life. From the bottom as a factory goon all the way up to engineer, I've learned a bit.

The comparison you've made is not a fair one, as there is MUCH MUCH more that goes into producing an item than material cost. Carbon Fiber, when done properly, is a very expensive proccess. When you buy it, you're paying for a peice of the mould, autoclave, mixing systems, electric bils, etc etc.

If you actually read what I posted, I said the "cost to manufacture" not just the cost of the carbon fiber. I know the various costs involved.

 

Case 2: Titanium is one of the most abundant elements on planet earth (Top 3 I beleive), why is it so expensive?

Aluminum is #3, titanium is #9 at just .5% of the earths crust. It is challenging to refine and most large deposits are in Siberia.

 

BTW, I don't see why you feel the need to 'defend' HANS. The problem is the rule disallowing the Isaac, not that the rule allows the HANS.

Edited December 20, 2007 by Guest

[JCraven]

Because of the lack of side impact requirement of SFI 38.1 and the design of a typical device like the HANs complying with the specification, NASA has required side impact nets on both sides of the driver with quick releases. The driver's door net has been in effect for quite some time and the NASA requirement for the passenger net was implemented I believe sometime last year although seats with appropriate head supports do not require the passenger side impact net. Many of the installations of the side impact nets look awkward and make egress through the passenger side more difficult. If there is a wreck and emergency personal attempted to extracate someone through the passenger door, they would have to contend with both the passenger side impact net and definitely after June, a HNR and seat belt before they will be able to remove a passenger.

 

I'm thinking a new seat with side impact design to restrain the neck and designed with a head and neck restraint is safer than a hobbled together side net and HNR .

[pgipson]

Doing nothing is not a viable option any more. There's too much data that SFI devices are necessary to *not* do something about this.

 

That's an interesting observation. What has nasa done?

 

Drivers have always the option of wearing a H&NR system and many (judging from the comments all over the web) have. So what level of safety is improved by the rule change? Apparently some drivers now have to spend more money to become compliant to the new rule.

 

If it is an issue of driver safety, why not mandate fuel cells and fire suppression systems? Those devices have been around a long time and are well proven also. perhaps even more so than H&NR systems.

 

And why isn't "no rule" a sufficient answer? Wouldn't "H&NR systems are voluntary, but highly recommended" be an appropriate comment in the rulebook?

[Driver]

If you actually read what I posted, .... I don't see why you feel the need to 'defend' HANS.

Because I read your post. In it you implied that the HANS cost less than $295 to manufacture. If you really are in the manufacturing field, then you know how little you actually know about their processes, and you've got no basis for your remarks.

How much does this cost?

 

re: corner worker. He has to access both side of your helmet and release the pins. Releasing these pins requires some finite motor skills. He has to do this in a tight space and possibly stressful circumstances. It's not just an issue of "can", it's one of "can fast".

[FlyingDog]

Because I read your post. In it you implied that the HANS cost less than $295 to manufacture. If you really are in the manufacturing field, then you know how little you actually know about their processes, and you've got no basis for your remarks.

How much does this cost?I've worked for companies who made far more complex parts out of similar materials (carbon fiber, and mutli-axis CNC machined aluminum and titanium) for similar costs in lower volumes. The cost being less than $295 comes from another H&N restraint manufacturer. I guess you know more than him about his own industry.

 

re: corner worker. He has to access both side of your helmet and release the pins. Releasing these pins requires some finite motor skills. He has to do this in a tight space and possibly stressful circumstances. It's not just an issue of "can", it's one of "can fast".

If you think pulling two (or you could probably tie them into one) easy to access pull cords is that hard, you probably shouldn't be driving. You're still missing the point that an Isaac is safer in a crash (according to performance data in SAE and SFI tests) and it is left in the car making escape easier. You can claim the corner workers are as incompetent as you want, but it doesn't change the fact that the safest option is against the rules.

[Bruce L.]

you don't **need** a new seat to accomodate a Hans

bruce

 

I am not buying my HNR until right before the rule date is supposed to take effect - why? Because who knows what could change up to then. $800 is not an insignificant amount of money and I'm not going to spend it twice on the same thing. Come end of June, if this rule is still going to be taking effect without modification I will be buying the HANS. That and a new seat to accommodate the HANS. So this rule will now cost me about $1800-$2000.

 

Patrick

[Izzy's Cages]

re: corner worker. He has to access both side of your helmet and release the pins. Releasing these pins requires some finite motor skills. He has to do this in a tight space and possibly stressful circumstances. It's not just an issue of "can", it's one of "can fast".

 

Every corner worker I've ever shown the Isaac too has had zero issues with the releases... and I've had a number of them show me the bowie knives that they carry with some variation of "this makes short work of just about anything holding you in the car"

 

I can "get free" from my Isaac quicker than I can "get free" from my camlock belts.

[Driver]

You can claim the corner workers are as incompetent as you want, but it doesn't change the fact that the safest option is against the rules.

Thank you for making it seem like I look down on corner workers, that's just awesome. I couldn't be trying to make their jobs easier, of course not. After all, they are just there to risk fire and traffic to get me to safety, why would I want to make their jobs easier?

 

Re: cutting belts... Perfect, actually. That actually would change things quite a bit if they were standard issue for workers, it would make short work of any belt. Add some snips to the utility belt, and you're set for anything.

 

The cost being less than $295 comes from another H&N restraint manufacturer. I guess you know more than him about his own industry.

No, but you're showing that I know more about industry than you. You're telling us "I heard a guy say once". You're also quoting a guy that, if I may quote you, comes from another H&N restraint manufacturer. If they're making a different product, they can't speak for some one elses operation.

Just because one guy can make something at X price does not mean some one else can. Hell, they may have more experienced people who make more. Do you know how many grades of fiber and epoxy there are? They may pay more in rent and taxes. They may have gas heat instead of electric. What do they spend on adversizing and R&D? For you to tell some one that "I know what your stuff costs to make cuz a guy told me his only costs X" is an insult. There's entirely too much that goes into the manufacture of this kind of product for you claim to know anything.

I can get Vietnamese kids to lay fiber in a mold, want to buy one?

 

You've strayed into an area of conversation that you don't seem equipped to compete in. Let's keep the thread on topic. Allot of this stuff should be deleted anyways.

 

I don't like your beer anymore, I'm going with New Belgium's stuff from now on.

[bcc1323]

This is an example of the many freedoms we are losing, the freedom to chose for ourselfs.

[FlyingDog]

You've strayed into an area of conversation that you don't seem equipped to compete in. Let's keep the thread on topic. Allot of this stuff should be deleted anyways.

Let's see... You repeatedly try to turn the conversation into a who's is bigger comparison vs talking about the safety rule banning the safest solution. Now you're trying a holier than thou routine. You might want to follow your own deletion advice. This is (or was until you decided to talk AT instead of TO the rest of us) a discussion, not a competition. You might want to lay off the condescending attitude and poor assumptions in the future.

I don't like your beer anymore' date=' I'm going with New Belgium's stuff from now on.[/quote']You might want to try reading.... the screen name has nothing to do with the beer.

[Driver]

You might want to try reading.... the screen name has nothing to do with the beer.

Everything has to do with beer!

 

This is (or was until you decided to talk AT instead of TO the rest of us) a discussion, not a competition.

There is no us, just you. I have no problem with anyone else here. The reason that I addressed you in the manner that is simple; it's the same way that you were addressing me. Please note, I never used the rolleyes.

Even now I'm inclined to spit the "You might want to lay off the condescending attitude and poor assumptions in the future." right back at you.

 

The original point of my assessment of the ISAAC is simple, there is a legitimate reason that it does not have a certification. It's going to stay that way until either SFI or the ISAAC changes. Keep in mind, the SFI and FIA certification applies to a broad spectrum of motorsport. 38.1 covers 200mph cars as well as Golf GTi's. Write a letter and ask them for a "Clubsport 38.2" or something like that.

 

Allot of people love the ISAAC, and are welcome to defend it. Just do it in a way that keeps the thread on track, attacking the most popular device on the compliant list does exactly what?

[vpnwiz]

...That and a new seat to accommodate the HANS. So this rule will now cost me about $1800-$2000.

you don't **need** a new seat to accomodate a Hans

bruce

Why do you think you need a new seat? What kind of seat do you have now?

 

Howard Bennett

HANS Performance

 

From looking at the seat mfg catalogs. Sparco, Racetech make "HANS-compatible" setas that costs more then their "regular" seats. Perhaps I am a victim of marketing collateral. But also from looking at the HANS - it sure seems like it will be pushing your head forward as you are sitting. I have never tried one on.

 

I've got a 10 degree Kirkey aluminum circle track seat right now. I'm sitting pretty upright already.

 

And Howard, just for your future marketing research... My Easy Button threshold for buying race "stuff" (a HANS device in this case) is $500. Any more than that and it makes my "big ticket" list of items. But at the $500 level I would just go out and buy it. Coincidentally that's just over 25% off the new less expensive HANS version. I doubt I can find anyone selling it for that kind of discount, but if I did I would buy and not wait until the deadline. Just FYI.

 

Patrick

[Driver]

What about the Hutchens type devices? They seem to have a long solid bit going down your back. Would they require a special seat for comfort?

[FlyingDog]

Allot of people love the ISAAC, and are welcome to defend it. Just do it in a way that keeps the thread on track, attacking the most popular device on the compliant list does exactly what?

Apparently it is hard to read from up on your soap box. You might want to step down and join the discussion.

Block the competition??? I believe there are 2 other manufacturers with SFI certified device. We've done a pretty poor job.

I said "major" competition. I'm sure you've noticed that the discussions are almost always HANS vs Isaac. The other two manufacturers are rarely mentioned other than in the context of 'HANS is not the only SFI 38.1 device'.

 

You've done a great job of marketing and I'm sure your product is excellent. I (and many others) would prefer to use a different product that we feel is safer both in a collision and when escaping a vehicle. That (superior in our minds) product costs a fair amount less than your product.

I think maybe it was more like Leatt realized they couldn't do one for $395.

Isaac has no problem doing one for $295 and the estimates I have seen of what your carbon fiber versions cost to manufacture is lower than that.

Carry on.

 

Howard Bennett

HANS Performance

Thank you for responding. Most manufacturers would ignore threads like this or just blast everybody who did not agree with them.

I didn't know that complementing somebody was an attack.

 

How would you define your comments on the use and ease of release of an Isaac without having any experience with one? What about projecting your opinion of the Isaac on track workers? Would you consider those attacks or are you perfectly innocent?

 

BTW, I don't care whether or not you like or dislike a HANS, or like or dislike an Isaac. I just don't understand your absurd position that we should have less safety options because you don't understand how easy an Isaac is to use.

[granracing]

I chose my H&N based on the type of racing we do (and yes, it does matter), and which overall I believe would go the furthest to protect me. I have an ISAAC. I'd prefer to stay clear of some of the political BS related to SFI and how they determine having two release points can't meet their safety goals. One also needs to consider what are the most likely scenarios / accidents when these devices will be put to test. I'd take sacrifice the extra time it would take IF my car were upside down, and IF the car is on fire and I need to be dropped on my head while being unbuckled, and IF I'm totally out of it compared to as side impact from another car or tire wall side impact.

 

I don't want corner workers, volunteers with some training on this, to plunk people down from and car that's upside down. This should be reserved to the professional paramedics who are sitting in an ambulance at the track (at least they are at the event I attend, and if not that's a bigger issue). Yeah, they'll be just fine getting the ISAAC or any other unit off with snips or whatever.

 

Let's say we're o.k. with a corner worker releasing a person whose in this vulnerable position. What about all of the other gear people wear? Radios, cool suits, among other items?

 

Everything has to do with beer!

 

Ummm, beer good. Hooray beer! [/i]

[FBody383]

This is an example of the many freedoms we are losing, the freedom to chose for ourselfs.

 

You have not lost any freedom of choice; you may believe you have lost your primary avenue for motorspots participation, but not the ability to choose. NASA has always had a set of rules that we, as customers, must follow.

 

There are many possible choices including, but not limited to:

1) Buy/Borrow/Rent an SFI 38.1 device

2) Participate with a sanctioning body with more HNR alternatives

3) Start new sanctioning body and promulgate rules as you see fit

 

I will be a CMC rookie for 2008 and I bought my HANS in a group buy many months ago; I don't even have a new helmet, driving suit or have the car finished. I bought one knowing their track record and that it would be accepted by NASA.

 

I like stirring the pot as much as anybody but these discussions never progress. I have emailed Jerry Kunzman and John Lindsey regarding a couple of issues and always received a prompt reply.

 

Why did NASA settle on the SFI 38.1 specification? I do not know; have you asked them?

[FlyingDog]

Why did NASA settle on the SFI 38.1 specification? I do not know; have you asked them?

No reply from National or Mid-Atlantic.

[944-Spec#94]

Why did NASA settle on the SFI 38.1 specification? I do not know; have you asked them?

 

NASA did not have any other choice short of trying to write one themselves. I don't believe NASA has the man power nor desire to start writing safety specs.

[FlyingDog]

Why did NASA settle on the SFI 38.1 specification? I do not know; have you asked them?

 

NASA did not have any other choice short of trying to write one themselves. I don't believe NASA has the man power nor desire to start writing safety specs.

They had three other choices: SFI and FIA (wouldn't include Isaac now but may in the future), leave as is, state that devices must exceed SFI 38.1 performance (as opposed to being SFI 38.1 certified).

[HBennett]

Why did NASA settle on the SFI 38.1 specification? I do not know; have you asked them?

 

NASA did not have any other choice short of trying to write one themselves. I don't believe NASA has the man power nor desire to start writing safety specs.

They had three other choices: SFI and FIA (wouldn't include Isaac now but may in the future), leave as is, state that devices must exceed SFI 38.1 performance (as opposed to being SFI 38.1 certified).

 

Who verifies exceeding SFI-38.1 performance? Nobody has answered that. You have to have some kind of verification or anyone can publish test specs that exceed the spec. I don't have a problem with any of the other devices. Whose word are you willing to stake your life or livelihood on? I am really not trying to tout the HANS Device here but there are a couple of SFI certified devices that third party organizations have tested and accepted. I don't think Isaac is one of the devices. The HANS Device and the Hybrid from Safety Solutions have been tested and accepted by third party organizations, not SFI. I'm not even saying the Isaac is not a good product but every manufacturer has a chance to market a certified device that will be accepted by sanctioning bodies.

 

Howard Bennett

HANS Performance

[Bruce L.]

FIA is even less likely to include the Isaac than SFI. The current FIA spec for HNR's is written very specifically for the Hans (shape, etc.)

 

Howard's answer above is right on the money. There has to be an alternative organization to SFI to make it work.

bruce

 

 

Why did NASA settle on the SFI 38.1 specification? I do not know; have you asked them?

 

NASA did not have any other choice short of trying to write one themselves. I don't believe NASA has the man power nor desire to start writing safety specs.

They had three other choices: SFI and FIA (wouldn't include Isaac now but may in the future), leave as is, state that devices must exceed SFI 38.1 performance (as opposed to being SFI 38.1 certified).