CHEATER EXPOSED

[Grumpy]

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zeropost?cmd=tshow&id=3568288

 

This guy races NASA time trial and posts how he is cheating.

[phoenixR34]

what's sad is that you are allowed to run a lightweight battery for free anyways. so he wasted all that time to "cheat", but what he's doing is totally legal. lol

[kbrew8991]

can we ban someone over blatant off-track stupidity?

 

"its only illegal if you get caught", well... look what happened... AND its not illegal anyway

[cosm3os]

It's only cheating if they are using the points system for weight reduction, however they should be penalized for the intent.

[kbrew8991]

Kyle - no points modification #5 (battery replacement / lightweight battery / dry cell) is allowed no matter which of the 2 weight methods you choose (same goes for any of the n.p.m.)

 

but over intent, yeah, I'd love to toss the guy

[Shawn M.]

Kyle - no points modification #5 (battery replacement / lightweight battery / dry cell) is allowed no matter which of the 2 weight methods you choose (same goes for any of the n.p.m.)

 

but over intent, yeah, I'd love to toss the guy

 

 

So funny.

 

For my next cheater mod.... im going to build a set of camber plates that look like STOCK upper strut bearings!!

 

and then......

 

im gonna fabricate my own brakes that look just like the stock ones!

 

and then...

[Eric W.]

What's even funnier is..

 

in his attempt to cheat, he spent $200 (4X more) for a rebadged DEKA Braille battery.

[LMan]

I'm sure the rest of his car would be worth going over carefully

[phoenixR34]

i think a bunch of us all replied to his post at the same time. hopefully he gets the picture now.

[1LapSRT]

Too funny....Now he says he didn't really mean it like he WANTED TO CHEAT!

[cosm3os]

Kyle - no points modification #5 (battery replacement / lightweight battery / dry cell) is allowed no matter which of the 2 weight methods you choose (same goes for any of the n.p.m.)

 

but over intent, yeah, I'd love to toss the guy

 

That doesn't make sense from an application point of view. Say I'm 30 lbs above my curb weight with the stock battery using the alternative method and the free 150lbs of ballast. Under the rule as written, I could switch to the DEKA, save 40 lbs and LEGALLY run 10 lbs light!

 

I was thinking the same thing about the DEKA/braille battery!

[kbrew8991]

you're still responsible to meet the minimum weight, you can get to it and THEN use free mods to get below it... the weight reduction free mods don't help the alternate method guy (like you and me)

[JCraven]

Man, you guys are worrying about 10 lbs.... Jeez

 

You just need to pick the right car and get creative. Heck,, the cars are there, 400hp approx 3000lb normally aspirated TTE using stock cam, piston, compression, cat back etc. Low bucks, minimal work and you'll have a car that flies. Take another example, willing to spend a bit more money and time, machine work, porting, polishing, big cam, big valves, big carbs and run a bit more weight, probably get 600+ to 700hp and still be in TTE. I haven't even looked at what is possible with TTD cars yet. There are lots of cars with incredible potential under the existing rules, perhaps that is why Greg is working hard to fine tune the rules for 2008? I already know what is possible under TTF

 

TTF 10.4 lbs/crank hp

TTE 5.8 lbs/ crank hp

 

Joe Craven -unfortunately, none of my cars are the "right" cars

TT?/PT?/E2 Rabbit

TT?/PT?/E2 Capri

TT?/TT?/E2 Capri

E2 Nissan 200SX

Edited December 19, 2007 by Guest

[kbrew8991]

that E car will get dropped into TTS, even if it doesn't have enough points... re-read the section on maximum adjusted pw:weight being >8.7:1 for any A-F car

 

and outside of that, I'd have to say I'm pretty skeptical thats even possible.. and if it is, well, those must be some piggy cars to still get outrun by the rest of E and F thats running alot lower hp:weight

[cosm3os]

Man, you guys are worrying about 10 lbs.... Jee

 

If you are referring to the poster on the Vortex, we are not worried about the 10 lbs, we are worried about the points. 10 lbs on my car puts me in TTC.

[JCraven]

It's not that the cars are piggy, it's based on their innate competition potential. The cars seem to be classed on their stock performance, FWD, RWD, brakes, weight , power etc. The lighter cars seem to have a factor that puts them at a competitive disadvantage in the new 2007 rules although the new tire width rule by class seems to make up for the weight classification factor somewhat. Some cars respond better to performance modifications than others so it is up to you to pick the diamond in the rough and there are quite a few of them in the TT list and it now looks like many of them will be bumping into that max weight/hp limit starting at the PTE class so it will be important to pick one of those cars and it will be one of those cars which can be setup to handle the best and of course the best driver in the best car should be able to win.

 

In regards to my example of the 2007 TTE car with ~600+HP (too much power), that car will have to be detuned, or spend less money and do less modifications to keep it in TTE which shouldn't be a problem. Build a flatter power curve and keep it at the maximum allowable power to weight over the practical useable rpm range.

 

Another example of a diamond in the rough!

There is another overdog car that can be tuned to around 300hp for little money (or more power for more money) and even with limited suspension modifications and +10 tires it would still be in (now defunct) TTG class so the owner can perform more modifications to make it faster and race it in TTF or perhaps TTE or TTD. At some point, this motor could conceivably make too much power so it could be (de)tuned to stay under the max weight/power ratio in the same or similar way.

 

At these greater power levels, more money will have to be spent to prep the motor for reliability unless all one needs are a few reliable "qualify" laps per weekend. I wish I had the energy and time to prove some of these ideas, but I'm sure that these car(s) would only be overdogs for one season and would be factored into the rules for the next year. Pick a new car and build it into an overdog the next year and the cycle begins again. Doesn't this sound expensive?

 

Any sponsors/partners? I have some money and I ARE AN Injineer "i.e. Mechanical Engineer" and would like to go to the NASA Nationals

 

NEVERMIND - 2008 Rules are not out yet@@!@@@!!! HAHAHAAHHA

 

 

 

Joe Craven

[bryce]

Wow! I got an email today saying that the fur is flying on a VW forum and now the NASA forum, but I’m normally not a forum user. However, my friend Wayne is, and here we are. So, I registered for this forum, and for my first ever post:

 

Have you ever had a good college story about a neat chemistry experiment where you invented a new compound? Probably not, but I was a chemistry major so work with me here… That’s really a pretty boring tale when you tell someone else… Well, until it’s spiced up with how you stopped by the lab late at night to run your unauthorized experiment (that your professor knew full well about) and then hid in the bushes from the cops (that were never really there) after they investigated the lights being on in the building at 3AM (which never really happened).

 

That’s what Wayne did. Most of the responses to his post were pretty much what one would expect until someone with a screenname of jamesb and Wayne got into it, and then Kyle got into the fun and here we are.

 

We made this mod for the 2007 NASA season because it was an easy way to cut a bit of weight off the car and not have to fab up a new way to mount the battery. Since the car is essentially in new condition, I wanted to keep it as stock as possible (read: don’t drill new holes in it) and this seemed like a pretty elegant solution to accomplish both goals. Plus, Wayne manages a machine shop and does amazing work and those conical inserts he made are just way cool. But that’s not a very cool story, hence the explanation above… Wayne told a much more entertaining version of the same story to his VW friends, but as everyone has already described, it isn’t cheating to make this mod in NASA. It’s free.

 

Jim, I haven’t met you but hope to meet you at a NASA event in the future. I would like your help to understand the genesis of your post here. You found a VW forum post about someone who said he was cheating but really wasn’t, the fact that he wasn’t cheating was brought up in the post you found, and then you put up a post on this site titled CHEATER EXPOSED. Help me here.

 

Kyle, I’m sorry that Wayne’s post about a non-cheat cheat has taken us so far from the good times we had sharing beers and discussing new VW sequential trannies at Iowa Speedway. Hopefully we can get back to that at an event this year… Regarding yours (and others) “they should be penalized for intentâ€

[kbrew8991]

if it were me, I'd have some "words" for my "friend" about what he did to my credibility

 

but thats just me

[Tom A]

Jim, I haven’t met you but hope to meet you at a NASA event in the future. I would like your help to understand the genesis of your post here. You found a VW forum post about someone who said he was cheating but really wasn’t, the fact that he wasn’t cheating was brought up in the post you found, and then you put up a post on this site titled CHEATER EXPOSED. Help me here.

Intent. He and many others (Myself included) clearly believe that your intent was to break the rules, to cheat. The fact that you didn't have sufficent knowledge of the rules that your attempt to break them didn't happen to be illegal is irrelevant (but very amusing).

 

You see the fact that it wasn't really against the rules as a convenient "out" to the mess you have found yourself in. I don't see it that way, and I expect I am not alone in this group.

 

Why do we think you intended to cheat? Lets have a look:

Thread Title: Creative ways to skirt the rules...

Hmm, if you knew changing the battery was allowed, what rules exactly were you "skirting"?

 

A buddy of mine does a lot of NASA time trials and we were brainstorming on ways to reduce weight without having to take points with "obvious attempts at weight reduction".

OK, lacking understanding of the rules, but OK. That phrase is not in the Time Trial rules that I (or the search feature in Acrobat)can find. I can't find anything even close to that. Obvious attempts at weight reduction are perfectly legal, assuming your car makes minimum weight. (Hint: read the section on Weight Reduction, pay particular attention to the "Alternate Method")

 

So, we decided that one of the bigger bangs for the buck was the battery. Since it would be pretty obvious if we installed a little 11 pound Braille battery in the engine compartment, we decided to get creative.

Translated: We want to hide the fact that we are changing the battery because we think it is a points penalty.

 

My buddy went back to the dealer where he bought the car and talked to the parts department guy. They looked up the part number for the gutted wall display battery. The this hollowed out empty battery case has the same top cover with lead terminals so we were in business. The pictures spell out the rest. I didn't get a final picture of the 11 pound battery in side the empty battery case, but it worked out perfect. we packed the empty spaces with high density styrofoam. The socket heads on the tops of the terminals were covered up by the OEM vinyl covers.

Translated:We went through a lot of trouble and spent a lot of money to hide the fact that we changed the battery, and we are really happy at how well it turned out.

 

It was a lot of work to save 20 pounds, but it was pretty fun. We giggle like schoolgirls during tech inspection.

Now, why would you "giggle like schoolgirls during tech inspection" if you didn't think you were getting away with someting?

 

 

it was an easy way to cut a bit of weight off the car and not have to fab up a new way to mount the battery. Since the car is essentially in new condition, I wanted to keep it as stock as possible (read: don’t drill new holes in it) and this seemed like a pretty elegant solution to accomplish both goals.

I don't buy it. You clearly have fab skills, if this was truly all you wanted to do, it would have been easier (and probably lighter to fab up an aluminum tray that fit in the stock battery loaction. Hell, I couldn't make your little cheater battery box if I tried (and I wouldn't try), but I could make a mount that would pass tech and fit in the stock location without drilling holes in the tub for about $20 at the local hardware store and a couple hours.

 

Friendly advice. When you find yourself in a hole, stop digging.

[Shawn M.]

I was all ready to tear up his weaksauce rebutal but then Tom basically said what I was thinking. So ill just say, "What he said".

 

I just hate that it was posted on VWVORTEX. Making us VW diehards look bad. and stupid.

[Shawn M.]

I was all ready to tear up his weaksauce rebutal but then Tom basically said what I was thinking. So ill just say, "What he said".

 

I just hate that it was posted on VWVORTEX. Making us VW diehards look bad. and stupid.

[mtm68]

you mean having your webforum titled 'vortex' didn't do it?

 

(Nice reply Tom!)

 

Marcus

[Piersin]

What a major douchebag. Why do you cheat in Time Trialing? There isn't even money on the line. How do you actually feel like you won when you know you cheated? People take this way to seriously. It's supposed to be fun.

[lateapex911]

Tom, that is freakin hilarious.

 

Man, talk about being caught with your pants down.

 

The sad part is that the guy would have his ass handed to him by a Randy Pobst in his own car...the time and effort would be better spent working on driving skills....

[ianacole]

The sad part is that the guy would have his ass handed to him by a Randy Pobst in his own car.

 

Wouldn't most everyone?