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CHEATER EXPOSED


Grumpy

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I dont buy anything those 2 guys are saying. Its clear to me, and im sure to everyone, that their intention was to cheat. What region do they compete in? Whats going to happen to them now? Frankly, as a TTer, its a bit embarrassing to know that people like this represent our sport.

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  • JCraven

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Why do you cheat in Time Trialing? There isn't even money on the line. How do you actually feel like you won when you know you cheated? People take this way to seriously. It's supposed to be fun.

 

I've seen this sentiment posted many times in many places and I think it could become a hinderance to the growth of TT. TT is a competitive endeavor. No money? I won over $1300 in contingencies at Nat's. And forget about prize money; how about money spent to be competitive? I put a lot of time and money into preparing my car. I have a sponsor. I do it for fun (mostly cause it doesn't pay the mortgage), but that doesn't mean there's nothing at stake.

 

Bryce, I have no beef. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and not punish you for someone else's remarks. As I see it, even if the mod wasn't free, if it wouldn't put you in another class, then no harm no foul.

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Does everyone understand the rules well enough so they are 100% sure their cars are 100% legal.

 

There is no way everyone is totally legal even with the best of intentions, because I know of some cars with exactly the same modification which I and others and some directors still can't figure out how to properly assess the proper points. Some have assessed +1, others have assessed +2 and even +3. There was the same model car which placed at the NASA championships with probably this same modification and I'm curious if this modification was assessed any points or if so how many points at the NASA championships. I understand that the cars were teched after the race and many items were checked. My guess would be that this item was overlooked, because it still is a grey area and not addressed by the rules although I have recently brought it up.

 

Just something to think about.

 

I have brought up how some cars have overdog competitive potential so the 8.7 lb/hp limit could quickly be reached in the TTE class, negating the points that many of us are using to limit potential. Perhaps we will see dyno testing within each class to limit potential, 2008 rules could get really complicated or much simpler.

 

Joe Craven

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Ken, didn't think anyone ran a completely stock car, well except for tires !

 

When is your first 2008 event? The only way I can think that you could be technically illegal in 2008 is to attempt to run an early 2008 event as a TT or PT racer before the 2008 rules are released.

 

Anyways - You got me!

 

Joe Craven

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Does everyone understand the rules well enough so they are 100% sure their cars are 100% legal.

 

I do. It's my responsibility to know, and if I make a mistake, I should pay the price.

 

Here's how you know if you are legal: if you changed ANYTHING (and by "anything" I mean ANYTHING) on the car, you must assume it is assessed points. Go find them in the rules. If it's not covered in the rules, ask Greg and get his ruling. During my build, I asked Greg about 6 or so different things, including things as minor as OE shock tower reinforcers that I needed due to cracking towers.

 

Again, this goes back to the "seriousness" issue. If you are serious about competing in TT, then you make every effort to prepare your car. That means maximizing points and making sure everything is legal.

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There is no way everyone is totally legal even with the best of intentions, because I know of some cars with exactly the same modification which I and others and some directors still can't figure out how to properly assess the proper points. Some have assessed +1, others have assessed +2 and even +3.

 

Why be coy? What's the mod?

If it's a gray area, it needs brought into the daylight so every region can count the points the same. This will only benefit TT.

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Ken, didn't think anyone ran a completely stock car, well except for tires !

 

When is your first 2008 event? The only way I can think that you could be technically illegal in 2008 is to attempt to run an early 2008 event as a TT or PT racer before the 2008 rules are released.

 

Anyways - You got me!

 

Joe Craven

 

heheh, its not 100% stock, but close. My Nationals setup was:

- replacement shocks (Koni Yellow insterts)

- Toyota camber bolts per TSB (and simple camber adjustment is free)

- K&N replacement air filter (free mod and a whopping 0.5whp)

- Kumho V710s (195 & 205 widths to get under 19pts total)

- and I claimed alternate weight reduction method and was 60lbs or more over the whole event

 

I hear ya on running before the rules are out, but Greg will have 'em out before February I'm sure

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I know this is completely OT but I would love to see you take 10pts for tires (as previously mentioned) and with the remaining 9 points to stay in base class get to ~8.7:1 AND do suspension mods to make the car handle with ANY class below TTB.

 

I'm going to say the same thing the last guy who quoted you did. Quit being coy. You've already expressed you don't have the funds and are not going to campaign this car. So lets have alook at this grand plan. I'd be very interested to see if some of the things on your list could help me with my build.

 

 

 

I have brought up how some cars have overdog competitive potential so the 8.7 lb/hp limit could quickly be reached in the TTE class, negating the points that many of us are using to limit potential. Perhaps we will see dyno testing within each class to limit potential, 2008 rules could get really complicated or much simpler.

 

Joe Craven

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You guys are already confirming my point.

 

cosm3os says "Ask Greg" and "maximize points"

 

StealthTT says "If it's a gray area, it needs brought into the daylight so every region can count the points the same. This will only benefit TT."

 

Regionally doesn't address this at the Nationals.

 

OK, to answer StealthTT's question, the mod is on an A1 VW and it is the common lower stress bar which connects the front suspension mounting points between the front A arms which is a known A1 weak point. Here is a link to a discussion thread on another forum. To answer another question, I did ask Greg and we didn't come to a conclusion and I wasn't willing to take "maximum points" so my conclusion was to take it off and risk cracking the subframe and perhaps worstcase crashing the car.

 

This is the stayrod that most of the NASA A1 VW participants use and the question is how many points to assess.

 

http://www.parts4vws.com/catalog/product_detail.asp?PartNumber=18030

 

http://itforum.improvedtouring.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=13617

 

Joe Craven

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You guys are already confirming my point.

 

No, your question was "how can you know you are 100% legal?" We answered the question. Obviously there are grey areas, but if you get a ruling on your specific mod, then you can know you are legal.

 

With A-F we are talking about 3-4 pages you have to know when it comes to classing your car!

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OK, to answer StealthTT's question, the mod is on an A1 VW and it is the common lower stress bar which connects the front suspension mounting points between the front A arms which is a known A1 weak point. Here is a link to a discussion thread on another forum. To answer another question, I did ask Greg and we didn't come to a conclusion and I wasn't willing to take "maximum points" so my conclusion was to take it off and risk cracking the subframe and perhaps worstcase crashing the car.

 

This is the stayrod that most of the NASA A1 VW participants use and the question is how many points to access.

 

http://www.parts4vws.com/catalog/product_detail.asp?PartNumber=18030

 

http://itforum.improvedtouring.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=13617

 

Joe Craven

 

From the rules:

The overriding rule regarding car classification will be, as written in Section 3, “…penalties for non-compliance with the rules will be harsh, and may include disqualification and expulsion from further NASA TT competition with a single infraction, regardless of the nature of the infraction.â€

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First, I should clarify that I am the NASA Northern California Performance Touring Regional Director (USTCC National Director too) so I have quite a bit of interest in accurately interpreting these rules. I am not involved in TT coordination, just interested in TT as a friendly competitor. I have been racing competitively for well over 10 years at this point and seen good and bad happen to many a racing series.

 

 

IMO, Greg did not have a definitive answer in regards to what the lower stress bar points should be because we could not specifically find it in the 2007 rules and he didn't think the modification was very popular. I made a suggestion and hoped he might consider them for inclusion into the 2008 rules. To be fair, Greg seemed to make a quick suggestion of using a particular 2007 rule but I think that another rule that Tom Aiken suggested might apply more closely. However, what say all of you, what 2007 rule should be used and what points should be applied? Unfortunately, the best solution is to dump the A1 VW and get an A2 which because it doesn't need the lower stay rod and starts at the same PTG* and weight 2120, at least in the 2007 rules.

 

How does this work at the Nationals? Someone protests a grey area part/mod? Who interprets the rules? Greg or a committee?

 

Getting on your soapbox and quoting !"Disqualification"! for noncompliance doesn't help because I need some help here so put on your thinking caps and help me figure out how to apply the rules and how many points put on the forms. I don't know the answer so I will take off the part unless the 2008 rules clarify it's use and points. The problem doesn't go away because there are other A1 VWs running in the NorCal region and I need to address how to properly account for this modification other than my own car.

 

 

Joe Craven

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This is a hijack from the "Make fun of the dumbas cheater" topic, but let me clear up what Joe is talking about.

 

The front of the A-Arms on a A1 chassis VW mounts cantilever out from the tub. Thanks to the miracle of Google image search, I found some photos and threw together a visual aid that shows exactly what we are talking about.

 

ears.jpg

 

The mounts are circled, and the bolt heads where the A-arms attach can be seen. This is a known weak point on A1 cars, and if they crack, the tub is probably a writeoff (I wouldn't want to race one). The lower stress bar just connects those 2 points. Here is the Neuspeed version, which was part of the now defunct (Deleted?) GTI-Cup race class spec.

 

45.10.01.jpg

 

VW added something similar (but with more connection points) in later model Sciroccos.

 

I know it should be a point mod, but there was some qustion on what to take. Joe and I discussed it, and we know what we think it should be, even though it doesn't really fit any mod line item exactly.

 

Hopefully the 2008 rules, when they eventually come out, will make it a little clearer.

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VW added something similar (but with more connection points) in later model Sciroccos.

 

I know it should be a point mod, but there was some qustion on what to take. Joe and I discussed it, and we know what we think it should be, even though it doesn't really fit any mod line item exactly.

 

Hopefully the 2008 rules, when they eventually come out, will make it a little clearer.

 

I found a pic of the stock bar. I think it does a better job than the aftermarkert bars.

655efaa5.jpg

Installed:

IMG_2245.jpg

 

Just one point? On A1 cars, I think the smartest bar to install is the front lower stress bar. It does much to improve the handling as well as keep the horns from cracking. Regardless of what the points will be, I wont run one without the bar. Its a must.

 

The factory bar is known as the 16v stress bar but it was also installed on the convertable Rabbits. I dont know how that could fall under the update backdate rule for you Rabbit guys but I think even tho its all A1 chassis cars, the Scirocco will be excluded without having to take points.

 

2 points seems fair to me but if we get dinged 3 points, might as well get this crossbar and take advantage of it.

 

lowerbars.gif

 

I can see 3 points if we can do what we want with regards to stress bars ect. I use the front upper and lower stress bars. Upper rear stress bar as well as a front crossmember brace to reinforce the crossmember, which love to crack.

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Chassis stiffening device? That seems to be a catch all line.
That is one option, but to give that little bar the same points penalty as full length subframe connectors seems severe, considering the performance potential of other 3 point mods (shocks, Limited slip, traction control) seems to back this up.

 

Its function it very similar to that of a strut tower bar (which is a 1-point mod), in helps limit flex of the front suspension under side loading. It just does it from the bottom, rather than the top. SCCA IT rules lump them in the same category:

 

"5. Cars may add one (1) front stayrod, located in one of the following areas:

A. Between lower suspensions mounting points.

B. Between the upper strut towers on Mac-Pherson strut equipped cars.

C. Between upper front shock absorber mounts on cars with other forms of suspension."

 

I think it should be a one point mod, but I can't do that under the current rules.

 

Anyone see anywhere else it could possibly fit?

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Great suggestions, getting back on topic, how do we get a final official ruling on this issue? If we do, how far back does NASA want to go, including the NASA National results? We have A1 VWs placing in the Nationals and winning regional titles across the country. The language in the rules is strong including comments by TT NASA forum members in this thread. We can check their filed paperwork and take away their trophies/titles/points if necessary and expose them in this thread? Look at my forms, but then I never did win any titles so .... If I am deemed a cheater, I'll take my lumps like everybody else.

 

The rules are complicated and there are many grey areas and as a regional PT director, I find myself and others making mistakes which work for and against the racers themselves. Back to this thread, alleged attempts to cheats don't even result in cheating.

 

There are so many ways to work within the rules, I won't even begin to bring them up.

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Great suggestions, getting back on topic, how do we get a final official ruling on this issue? If we do, how far back does NASA want to go, including the NASA National results? We have A1 VWs placing in the Nationals and winning regional titles across the country. The language in the rules is strong including comments by TT NASA forum members in this thread. We can check their filed paperwork and take away their trophies/titles/points if necessary and expose them in this thread? Look at my forms, but then I never did win any titles so .... If I am deemed a cheater, I'll take my lumps like everybody else.

 

 

I recall I took points for the lower stressbar as a "Montecarlo bar" in the old rules.

 

A little birdie told me the rules have already been sent in for final approval from the higher-ups. Were waiting for the higher-ups.

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Hey Shawn, great to see that you still thinking about the VW folks. BTW, good to hear that the little birdie is talking and the 2008 rules may soon become official.

 

I don't want to speak to soon about the VWs, but I think I know how to breathe enough life into at least a couple of the models to make them into national champions unless someone picks some of the other fire breathing overdogs that I know lurk in the 2007 rules. TTE is especially troublesome, too many models can bump into that 8.7lbs/hp unless the rules have solved that issue. I might be able to get a VW close to 12 to 13lbs/hp in TTE/PTE

 

In regards to the lower stress bar, if the 2008 rules don't address it, I'll run with it during the season and take it off for the Nationals and cross my fingers that the body doesn't break

 

Take care

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