Dawg Posted December 25, 2007 Share Posted December 25, 2007 considering a dog-ring t-56. will these things shift just just like a sycned trans. ( no rev matching?) what might be a time improvement on a 1:36 track' like road atlanta? appreciate the help!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted December 25, 2007 Share Posted December 25, 2007 7.9.2 AI cars must use synchromesh-type transmissions. Non-synchro transmissions such as Jericos are not allowed in AI. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8cobra99 Posted December 26, 2007 Share Posted December 26, 2007 AIX cars may use that transmission, if available under $6K. rule 7.9.3 So, if you're gonna run AIX.... However, depending on your engine package and overal car package... T-56 trannys are fairly heavy. andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ST#97 Posted December 26, 2007 Share Posted December 26, 2007 7.9.2 AI cars must use synchromesh-type transmissions. Non-synchro transmissions such as Jericos are not allowed in AI. So put synchros on the 1-2 shift and the rest are dogs..., besides, a t56 STARTED as a synchro type trans... Dawg, to answer your question, we would need to know how many shifts you are making in 1:36... We have a track here in Texas that is a 1:24 track but I only shift 6 times... Personally, I don't think you are going to gain enough to warrant the costs but I have been running a T56 from an 03 cobra for 3 years and have not even changed the fluid...Great trans and rock solid at our power levels. Yes they are heavy but I have seen guys go through T5's like mad and there are no special gears for 5th to get .80...AND they hold twice the fluid of most of the other trannies and should run cooler overall. Plus, if you ever decide to go hog wild and put mega HP in the car, you got the tranny to go...no problem. A shop I work with just finally found the limit of a T56 at 1060 rwhp when they "machined" the teeth of the input shaft! LOL!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawg Posted December 27, 2007 Author Share Posted December 27, 2007 7.9.2 AI cars must use synchromesh-type transmissions. Non-synchro transmissions such as Jericos are not allowed in AI. So put synchros on the 1-2 shift and the rest are dogs..., besides, a t56 STARTED as a synchro type trans... Dawg, to answer your question, we would need to know how many shifts you are making in 1:36... We have a track here in Texas that is a 1:24 track but I only shift 6 times... Personally, I don't think you are going to gain enough to warrant the costs but I have been running a T56 from an 03 cobra for 3 years and have not even changed the fluid...Great trans and rock solid at our power levels. Yes they are heavy but I have seen guys go through T5's like mad and there are no special gears for 5th to get .80...AND they hold twice the fluid of most of the other trannies and should run cooler overall. Plus, if you ever decide to go hog wild and put mega HP in the car, you got the tranny to go...no problem. A shop I work with just finally found the limit of a T56 at 1060 rwhp when they "machined" the teeth of the input shaft! LOL!!! you seem to be correct on the t5's from what i've been reading. i've been running the original tranny since i bought the car with 30,000 miles. its had roughly 3000 track miles in 2.5 years with 435hp to 560hp. mainly the latter. currently running a (427) based 351 with 540hp carbed. it has ran pretty much flawlessly. even with the 5 to 2 shifts, ect. i know it's about 40lbs heavier, but can't beat the dependability. at road atlanta i run 5 down shifts and 5 upshifts. my main question is will it work like a syncro trans (no rev matching to down or upshift)? hope to do AIX this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ST#97 Posted December 27, 2007 Share Posted December 27, 2007 Call Liberty and find out if they build one...keep in mind the cost rule... Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawg Posted December 28, 2007 Author Share Posted December 28, 2007 if it cost more than a jericho, i won't buy it!!!!!!! thanks!!!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricky Reynolds Posted January 16, 2008 Share Posted January 16, 2008 So I guess that this gearbox is legal for AI then.... http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=RMG%2D7022726E&N=700+4294925134+4294839071+4294856890+115&autoview=sku We literally couldn't get a set of blocker rings to last more than 1 race in a T56 and that was with a cooler....granted they were 2 1/2 hour races, but still. I have grown to HATE replacing blocker rings especially in a T56 and while I appreciate the idea of trying to keep costs down I think this rule is counter productive in that regard. It's been a few years since I've sent them a set, but I have had several tremec gearsets converted and I know that through Liberty it was less than $500.00 I know this is a long standing rule so obviously it's not going to change, but I think there are a lot of misconceptions about the cost associated with it. Dawg, For the record, Yes you do have to "somewhat" rev match. You can muscle it in, but you will tear up a lot of parts that way. Once you get the hang of it you don't even think about it and it goes right in. Getting it out of gear is a little different...You will either have to blip the clutch or use some type of ignition interupt to "unload" the gears. As long as the full load of the car is on the gears you will have a hard time getting it out of the gear you are in. If you get a chance to look at the shifter on a newish GT3 you will notice that there is a wire coming out of the carbon shifter handle. It is connected to a load cell and when it sees a set amount of force pulling on the handle it stutters the ignition so it will come out of gear it is in....Pretty neat stuff. Straight cut gears are also a big factor, but that's a whole different conversation. I need to play devils advocate one last time.... I know that its relatively common to change the 5th gear ratio in a T5. So knowing that people are making what most consider a major modification to the transmission and add to that the relatively limited wording in the rules it would seem to be a true statement, in current state anyway, that "anything goes as long as it has a synchronizer". To go further with this, would it be acceptable for the synchronizers to be from an aftermarket rebuild kit that didn't use the same material as stock for that matter what is stock supposed to be? I know that in the case of T5s it sometimes varied within a production year. What about dual cones like in the new Shelby transmissions? What if the synchronizer didn't do anything at all, but was just sitting in there.....Gearbox teardowns for everybody!!!! I love transmission debates.....did I mention I hate replacing synchronizers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ST#97 Posted January 16, 2008 Share Posted January 16, 2008 So I guess that this gearbox is legal for AI then.... http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=RMG%2D7022726E&N=700+4294925134+4294839071+4294856890+115&autoview=sku We literally couldn't get a set of blocker rings to last more than 1 race in a T56 and that was with a cooler....granted they were 2 1/2 hour races, but still. I have grown to HATE replacing blocker rings especially in a T56 and while I appreciate the idea of trying to keep costs down I think this rule is counter productive in that regard. It's been a few years since I've sent them a set, but I have had several tremec gearsets converted and I know that through Liberty it was less than $500.00 Interesting, I have had the T56 in my car for 3 years and haven't even changed the fluid...no issues whatsoever here...going on year 4 and don't plan on doing anything with it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmrracing Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 As I read the CCR's a dog ring trans is illegal in AI that includes all gears. I know this because I worked Tech at the 06 national and we checked several AI cars for this. Dog rings are a type of synchro ! I had a jerico in my Vintage Mustang and I never had to lift to upshift or downshift. I have never used liberty but have been wanting to convert my tremic 600 to dogring. I would think the operation would be no different, afterall the drag racers swear by them and they are not lifting between shifts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nape Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 Bill, how were you guys checking? I'm just wondering how you can tell without a teardown. I haven't got to Nationals until Friday the last two years so I missed seeing the cars run through tech. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ST#97 Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 Bill, how were you guys checking? I'm just wondering how you can tell without a teardown. I haven't got to Nationals until Friday the last two years so I missed seeing the cars run through tech. Yeah, I would be interested in the same answer. Only way you can tell is to drive the car...right? Not that I really give a shoodidly doo but if someone had one, how would you know? I realize I am splitting hairs here, but the rules state that you must run a synchro type transmission. there is no implication that they must still be there, only that the transmission in it's originally designed configuration had synchros. There is also no specific wording that says you couldn't synchro 1-2, and leave the rest out with a different type of gear setup, or all gears must retain the synchros. Again, I am inputting a different slant between the words, but I think it would be a defensible position!?... Call it a hole we could fix in the next release of the rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marshallmosty Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 I realize I am splitting hairs here, but the rules state that you must run a synchro type transmission. there is no implication that they must still be there, only that the transmission in it's originally designed configuration had synchros. There is also no specific wording that says you couldn't synchro 1-2, and leave the rest out with a different type of gear setup, or all gears must retain the synchros. Again, I am inputting a different slant between the words, but I think it would be a defensible position!?... Call it a hole we could fix in the next release of the rules. Matt, I just don't see how I can start with my busted up T-5 and order a $1700 G-Force dog ring kit and have that be legal... maybe I need to wait on rebuilding my tranny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffburch Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 They jacked up one side of the car. Rolled the drive shaft with the car in gear. Looked for drive shaft rotation. Dog-ring slop. jb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ST#97 Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 They jacked up one side of the car.Rolled the drive shaft with the car in gear. Looked for drive shaft rotation. Dog-ring slop. jb Well, with the near spool in the rear of my car in that situation there would be no "slop". I guess I have just never been exposed to a dog ring setup to know what to look for or how it feels. Frankly, I don't see the need for one but to each their own! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Matt Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 I assume they checked all the gears, because as pointed out earlier you can get a trans built with dog ring synchros on 2-3-4, but keep the standard syncro on 1st. I have a Liberty Pro-Shifted Toploader that was built this way and I know many people who have built T5s like that, mostly for drag racing, because it's much easier to drive the car around the pits with a synchronized 1st gear. The Pro Shifted boxes don't like to downshift, but man can they upshift! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardP Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 I was the person sent under the AI cars in impound to check driveshaft slop when they did this in 2006. The cars were completely in the air on jack stands so the slop measured was from the transmission and not from the differential. Only one gear was checked but it was the same gear for each car (I believe second?) as specified by the tech officials. I verified each car was in the proper gear before I checked the driveshaft rotation. Richard P. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b_tone Posted January 18, 2008 Share Posted January 18, 2008 What's the spec for backlash you were checking to? Without published specs how can competitors be held to a rule? How was this backlash measured, what's the procedure? If we are going to be held to a specification the acceptable tolerance of that specification must be published. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardP Posted January 18, 2008 Share Posted January 18, 2008 What's the spec for backlash you were checking to? Without published specs how can competitors be held to a rule? How was this backlash measured, what's the procedure? If we are going to be held to a specification the acceptable tolerance of that specification must be published. Why is this type of thing so hard for people to figure out? No, you are not going to be disqualified for having excessive backlash in your tranny. But, if you seem to have a bunch more backlash than everyone else, the tech official might decide it's worth the extra effort to see inside the box. Richard P. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ST#97 Posted January 18, 2008 Share Posted January 18, 2008 Why is this type of thing so hard for people to figure out? No, you are not going to be disqualified for having excessive backlash in your tranny. But, if you seem to have a bunch more backlash than everyone else, the tech official might decide it's worth the extra effort to see inside the box. Richard P. Clarity... if there is no spec in black and white, there is then the opportunity for argument. It's no different that defining the specific/proper way to check track width to eliminate the arbitrary ambiguity at the track! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted January 18, 2008 Share Posted January 18, 2008 its not a check to see if your driveline slop is in compliance w/ xx.x rules as there is no rule or limit on that. its an easy inspection that reveals indications of a rules infraction related to dog rings and syncros. its like the rule about the spec tire requirements. the rules says you must run the spec tire, it doesnt say how compliance will be checked, or what part of the sidewall will be read to conclude that you are or are not running the spec tire. if your running a legal trans, do you really have anything to worry about? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ST#97 Posted January 18, 2008 Share Posted January 18, 2008 if your running a legal trans, do you really have anything to worry about? since I have no clue as to what is "excessive" slop...or how much slop a dog ring has...the answer to your question would be Yes. can someone describe what you would find when using this test if dog rings were being used? I know on my tranny which came from a stock 03/04 cobra, there is a reasonable amount of "slop" when in gear, engine off, at the driveshaft...more so than was in my T45 that came in the car stock. I guess what I am looking for is a way to ease the "fear of the innocent"! thanks all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b_tone Posted January 19, 2008 Share Posted January 19, 2008 What's the spec for backlash you were checking to? Without published specs how can competitors be held to a rule? How was this backlash measured, what's the procedure? If we are going to be held to a specification the acceptable tolerance of that specification must be published. Why is this type of thing so hard for people to figure out? No, you are not going to be disqualified for having excessive backlash in your tranny. But, if you seem to have a bunch more backlash than everyone else, the tech official might decide it's worth the extra effort to see inside the box. Richard P. Without having a specification how you can identify your ohso technical analysis of "a bunch more backlash". That's a 100% subjective rule with no true way to enforce it. Those types of rules have no place in this series. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardP Posted January 19, 2008 Share Posted January 19, 2008 Without having a specification how you can identify your ohso technical analysis of "a bunch more backlash". That's a 100% subjective rule with no true way to enforce it. Those types of rules have no place in this series. I believe it's been said a few times that there is no rule about backlash. You can not be disqualified for too much backlash. It is a subjective evaluation into whether or not more investigation is warranted. It certainly would have been a better "technical" inspection if all of the cars in impound were required to have removed their transmissions and opened them up for a non-subjective evaluation. Is that a good thing to do? Would that have caused a significant backlash among the racers? Is it better to annoy everyone or just ignore rules that can't easily be verified? I believe that the subjective evaluation was sufficient in this case to give a high probability that none of the inspected cars was in violation of the rule in question. I believe these types of inspections very much do have a place in this series. Anyone who has been around me for a while can attest that I don't believe we do enough technical inspections, locally or nationally. Richard P. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b_tone Posted January 19, 2008 Share Posted January 19, 2008 If you pulled my transmission apart based on your "a bunch more backlash" analysis only to find that I have had my syncro's modified to aid the high RPM shifting that we put our transmissions through during road racing I would be extremely upset since there is no mention of tear downs in the rules set. In my case, your process will cost me the price of a rebuild since I leave my transmission work to experts. This is why I ask for a specification. Being technical is fine, but if you are going to be technical you must list tolerances otherwise you are chasing a ghost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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